Are there any other leftists here? 👀

[Stosh]

OP ,stands for original post. I addressed the very first post, of Sean's thread...

[Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

yeah but  ......

 

 

Chapter  1 .

 

 

lesson  1

 

 

....   remember ?

Yes of course but Stosh has a point and Sean has a place of power over the interactions of many people and not just the ones who share the same ideology.  

 

I totally get how people of like left minded persuasion have been shit on,  on this site observed it particiapted in it to some extent when it can to certain people who were ranting loons that should in my opinion been banned for outright insanity yet tolerance on the part of Administration who held different views permitted it.

 

This site is a mess.

 

If Sean wants to return and recreate it in his vision after being an absentee landlord for so long well it should be interesting to see what comes if it.

 

You however Nungali are riding high right now with support and it is shameful.

 

You are better than that.

[ralis]

There has been much disagreement as to how social programs are paid for. The right wing mantra is “it costs too much”, but the hypocrisy lies in that wars and tax cuts have no limit in spending. Health care, education, well paying jobs benefit our society as opposed to the fear that money is limited any money spent on people is a waste. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by ralis

[Nungali]

Maybe its my childhood conditioning;

 

My father voted Labour and once I asked him why; "  Because they are more interested in looking after the average person. "

 

He was a fireman, you know, one of those important 'social people' that do great work and are underpaid and risk their life , like police, emergency services , nurses, etc  . Most of the fireman around here dont even get paid  !

 

he was also a Surf Life Saver .   They had unions and stuff.   And retirement homes and and  and ....  Free good medical treatment  ( we still retained that somehow ) .

 

I suppose I grew up observing the benefit .  Then Goff came along  .... all paternal and friendly like  and we all got hyped up

 

 

 

 

Seems old now, but back then, compared to the other  campaign adverts  ! 

 

It was like going to a rock concert !     

 

And people where leaving the city and  flocking to unused rural land (mostly failed  airy farms) and creating communes.   Even the Prime Ministers daughter ran off to Nimbin (hippyville)   and other pollies kids too!

 

They even tried to pass legislation for it ; Look all these kids are doing it, they want to grow food and make products, let's agree to assist, support and run  co ops, buy the produce and distribute it.  otherwise, its going to turn into a big mess.

 

The right screamed no no no ... thats socialism !    So they told them to 'get a job' in those (now defunct ) areas . No jobs of course so then  they had to  put them all on the dole instead  ... according to the current legislation then .

 

Then they went on to complain about lefty  dole bludgers .

 

and we all got hyped up

[ralis]

14 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

So moving on to something related to the topic, let's look at one of my favorite expressions of Left views: music, particular punk rock.

 

I love punk rock, from the Ramones to the Sex Pistols and X-Ray Spex, the Cramps, and so many more. I'll be discussing the music as a whole in following posts, but I'd like to start with the original punk band, the Ramones.

 

Most people think punk is synonymous with the Left. While this is a common theme in many political bands and punk rock songs in the 70s and 80s (long before skateboarders in the 90s turned it into bubblegum pop for kids who focused on piercings, tattoos, and thinking that watching MTV was rebellious), punk is not strictly Leftist nor is it exclusively used by the Left. 

 

For starters, Johnny Ramone was about as Right-Wing as one can get to the point he considered Reagan to be one of the greatest American presidents of all time and loved George W. Bush, thanking him specifically when they were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. 

 

His belief is that a true punk is a Republican, not some liberal self-entitled and self-righteous brat expecting handouts and welfare. It was a point of contention with Joey Ramone, who was exactly the opposite, and did not appreciate a lot of the jokes about Jews and liberals (both of which were Joey's identity) made by Johnny who said them more and more often around Joey just to piss him off. 

 

Johnny is quoted by The Observer as saying: "People drift towards liberalism at a young age, and I always hope they change when they see how the world really is."

 

Also another noteworthy quote: "To me, I think punk is right wing. What happened in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s was a lot of disaffected kids  -- the kind who would’ve been hippies a decade before –-  drifted into punk. But, when you think of who punks are, they’re greasers, people who didn’t fit in, but they didn’t back down either.  Who above all, love America. I’ve voted Republican ever since 1960 when Kennedy ran against Nixon. I’ve been with the conservative Republicans since I was eleven years old."

 

One political song written by Joey, "Bonzo goes to Bitburg" from 1986, was originally also supposed to be the title for the album that was eventually released as Animal Boy. It was a stab at Reagan who visited Bitburg, West Germany in May of 1985, and Johnny didn't want to play it often either because he didn't want to offend Reagan. Joey at this point had complete contempt for Johnny, not helped by the fact that in the 80s was when Johnny ended up marrying Linda, who before then was Joey's long-time girlfriend. 

 

The song in question with some lyrics: 

 

 

You've got to pick up the pieces
C'mon, sort your trash
You better pull yourself back together
Maybe you've got too much cash

Better call, call the law
When you gonna turn yourself in? Yeah
You're a politician
Don't become one of Hitler's children

Bonzo goes to Bitburg then goes out for a cup of tea
As I watched it on TV somehow it really bothered me
Drank in all the bars in town for an extended foreign policy
Pick up the pieces

My brain is hanging upside down
I need something to slow me down
Ooh yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down

 

Shouldn't wish you happiness
Wish her the very best
Fifty thousand dollar dress
Shaking hands with your highness

See through you like cellophane
You watch the world complain
But you do it anyway
Who am I, am I to say

Bonzo goes to Bitburg then goes out for a cup of tea
As I watched it on TV somehow it really bothered me
Drank in all the bars in town for an extended foreign policy
Pick up the pieces

My brain is hanging upside down
I need something to slow me down
Ooh yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down

 

If there's one thing that makes me sick
It's when someone tries to hide behind politics
I wish that time could go by fast
Somehow they manage to make it last

Ooh yeah, yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
I need something to slow me down
Ooh yeah, yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down

Ooh yeah, yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down
My brain is hanging upside down

 

Pretty direct stab at Reagan and the establishment, eh? 

 

I have been listening to Pink Floyd forever. Their music has always been against the radical right. 

Dogs (Waters, Gilmour) 17:06 

You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need.
You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street,
You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed.
And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight,
You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking.

And after a while, you can work on points for style.
Like the club tie, and the firm handshake,
A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.
You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
So that when they turn their backs on you,
You'll get the chance to put the knife in.

You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder.
You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you
get older.
And in the end you'll pack up and fly down south,
Hide your head in the sand,
Just another sad old man,
All alone and dying of cancer.

And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown.
And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone.
And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw 
around.
So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone,
Dragged down by the stone.

I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused.
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used.
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise.
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this
maze?

Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending
That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend.
And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner
And everything's done under the sun,
And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer.

Who was born in a house full of pain.
Who was trained not to spit in the fan.
Who was told what to do by the man.
Who was broken by trained personnel.
Who was fitted with collar and chain.
Who was given a pat on the back.
Who was breaking away from the pack.
Who was only a stranger at home.
Who was ground down in the end.
Who was found dead on the phone.
Who was dragged down by the stone.

 

[liminal_luke]

On 24/7/2019 at 10:58 PM, sean said:

 

I'm curious if there are any actual leftists on this forum?

 

To be clear, I don't mean neoliberal or "progressive" Democrats. I mean bonafide anti-fascists, left-anarchists, left-libertarians, Marxists, socialists or communists.

 

 

OK, back to the topic.  (With my apologies if my comments about board policy have annoyed.)  Sean asked if there are any actual leftists on the forum, and I gather from the responses that the answer is a resounding YES.  A few honest-to-goodness lefties have bravely stepped forward.  I myself fit best in the much maligned "progressive Democrat" category which doesn´t count, but some of my best friends are veritable commies.

 

It´s refreshing to hear these leftists voices.  It´s good to know that the Bum membership includes smart, knowledgable people from across the political spectrum.   

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

27 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

So moving on to something related to the topic, let's look at one of my favorite expressions of Left views: music, particular punk rock.

 

I love punk rock, from the Ramones to the Sex Pistols and X-Ray Spex, the Cramps, and so many more. I'll be discussing the music as a whole in following posts, but I'd like to start with the original punk band, the Ramones.

 

Most people think punk is synonymous with the Left. While this is a common theme in many political bands and punk rock songs in the 70s and 80s (long before skateboarders in the 90s turned it into bubblegum pop for kids who focused on piercings, tattoos, and thinking that watching MTV was rebellious), punk is not strictly Leftist nor is it exclusively used by the Left. 

 

For starters, Johnny Ramone was about as Right-Wing as one can get to the point he considered Reagan to be one of the greatest American presidents of all time and loved George W. Bush, thanking him specifically when they were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. 

 

His belief is that a true punk is a Republican, not some liberal self-entitled and self-righteous brat expecting handouts and welfare. It was a point of contention with Joey Ramone, who was exactly the opposite, and did not appreciate a lot of the jokes about Jews and liberals (both of which were Joey's identity) made by Johnny who said them more and more often around Joey just to piss him off. 

 

Johnny is quoted by The Observer as saying: "People drift towards liberalism at a young age, and I always hope they change when they see how the world really is."

 

Also another noteworthy quote: "To me, I think punk is right wing. What happened in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s was a lot of disaffected kids  -- the kind who would’ve been hippies a decade before –-  drifted into punk. But, when you think of who punks are, they’re greasers, people who didn’t fit in, but they didn’t back down either.  Who above all, love America. I’ve voted Republican ever since 1960 when Kennedy ran against Nixon. I’ve been with the conservative Republicans since I was eleven years old."

 

One political song written by Joey, "Bonzo goes to Bitburg" from 1986, was originally also supposed to be the title for the album that was eventually released as Animal Boy. It was a stab at Reagan who visited Bitburg, West Germany in May of 1985, and Johnny didn't want to play it often either because he didn't want to offend Reagan. Joey at this point had complete contempt for Johnny, not helped by the fact that in the 80s was when Johnny ended up marrying Linda, who before then was Joey's long-time girlfriend. 

 

The song in question with some lyrics: 

 

 

You've got to pick up the pieces
C'mon, sort your trash
You better pull yourself back together
Maybe you've got too much cash

Better call, call the law
When you gonna turn yourself in? Yeah
You're a politician
Don't become one of Hitler's children

Bonzo goes to Bitburg then goes out for a cup of tea
As I watched it on TV somehow it really bothered me
Drank in all the bars in town for an extended foreign policy
Pick up the pieces

My brain is hanging upside down
I need something to slow me down
Ooh yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down

 

Shouldn't wish you happiness
Wish her the very best
Fifty thousand dollar dress
Shaking hands with your highness

See through you like cellophane
You watch the world complain
But you do it anyway
Who am I, am I to say

Bonzo goes to Bitburg then goes out for a cup of tea
As I watched it on TV somehow it really bothered me
Drank in all the bars in town for an extended foreign policy
Pick up the pieces

My brain is hanging upside down
I need something to slow me down
Ooh yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down

 

If there's one thing that makes me sick
It's when someone tries to hide behind politics
I wish that time could go by fast
Somehow they manage to make it last

Ooh yeah, yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
I need something to slow me down
Ooh yeah, yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down

Ooh yeah, yeah, my brain is hanging upside down
And I need something to slow me down
My brain is hanging upside down

 

Pretty direct stab at Reagan and the establishment, eh? 

 

Midnight Oil used to be the voice here for a while

 

Then he made the terrible mistake of going into politics .... as a pollie  !

 

 

 

[sean]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

That's not something I was aware of, but if that did happen, of course it was racist. I would think saying that word would be ban worthy at this point in our culture.
 

Another thing I wasn't aware of...I thought violent talk (especially about "killing") like that was against the forum rules already and was an automatic ban.

 

The issue I take here is the gleefulness when censorship of one side is touted as being correct.

 

Curious, do you consider the bans of racist and violent speech censorship? Because it sounds like we agree that there should be a line in the sand somewhere, just maybe not on precisely where.

 

Sean

 

[ralis]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:58 PM, sean said:

NOTE: This is not going to be a debate topic. I stopped debating right-wing dipshits many years ago for literally the same reason I don't argue with small children. Don't post right-wing bullshit in this topic. I'm in a mood and you've been warned.

 

I'm curious if there are any actual leftists on this forum?

 

To be clear, I don't mean neoliberal or "progressive" Democrats. I mean bonafide anti-fascists, left-anarchists, left-libertarians, Marxists, socialists or communists.

 

I haven't been active on here in years. (Short story: I fell in love, crisscrossed the country twice, leveled-up my engineering career, got married, bought a house in a new town, adopted an enormous dog.)

 

It's been incredibly disheartening to see that many of the loudest, most active voices here are right-wing reactionaries and conspiracy theory bros. Frankly, it makes the entire forum feel juvenile and toxic to me.

 

I can barely imagine wanting to share anything in this environment, let alone intimate, personal details of my spiritual practice.

 

Is this just what happens to online communities post-Trump now? The vulnerable aliveness slinks away slowly from the boorish spectacle, slipping quietly out the back door?

 

Trying times y'all. I remember often hearing this trope when I was young that I would eventually "grow out of" being a lefty. At 43 now it appears the prophecies were mistaken. I've only grown from Chomsky to Kropotkin to Marx. (With a cringe laissez-faire libertarian phase in there somewhere.)

 

Hi, my name is Sean. I'm a leftist. 👋

 

I read a ton but also (hopefully) avoid retreating into purely theoretical astronautics. "If it's not accessible to the poor, then it's neither revolutionary nor is it radical." My perspective continually evolves, but "anarcho-communist" is a shoe that fits well enough.

 

I'm active in community politics and not ideologically opposed to involvement in electoral politics. I vote for the least garbage candidates both nationally and locally. I don't shame people who conscientiously abstain from voting. I think pressuring the generally shitty, center-right led Democratic party leftward is worthwhile even if only as an exercise in shifting the Overton window and organizing solidarity. On a national scale, I believe universal healthcare is a medium-term fight worth focusing on given its populist support and massive capacity to reduce human suffering and death.

 

So, that's a bit about my politics. Any other leftist comrades hiding out here? I'd love to hear from you. Also, feel free to PM me if you're not yet ready to come out as a commie infidel. 😆

 

Sean

 

 

 

To further my points, I posted many arguments on this forum regarding the rise of fascism here in the U.S. I posted extensive historical accounts from the 20th Century both from Nazi Germany and Italy. Compared and contrasted the similarities between the current rise of authoritarianism which ties into Hannah Arendt’s “banality of evil” in which the right normalizes evil. 

[Nungali]

32 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Yes of course but Stosh has a point and Sean has a place of power over the interactions of many people and not just the ones who share the same ideology.  

 

Nah .... I mean  Ch 1 V 1 in light of the way  Daoism is expressed, or those 'advanced in Daoism' express themselves  here. .. in light of your comments about the poor lack of , or expression,    on  a 'Daoist site '

 

The daoist forum than can e followed is not  .......

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

 

I totally get how people of like left minded persuasion have been shit on,  on this site observed it particiapted in it to some extent when it can to certain people who were ranting loons that should in my opinion been banned for outright insanity yet tolerance on the part of Administration who held different views permitted it.

 

This site is a mess.

 

Hmmm ... and here iI was thinking it had a unique and individual flavour , unlike many boring, over restricted,  insane , defunct, etc .  other sites I had encountered .

 

I take it like I take a comment I once read about groups , magical orders,  monasteries even , to someone that was complaining to the head of one ;

 

" Look ! If  YOU know of a group with no dickheads in it or one that has a leader with no faults , please let  ME  know ! "

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

 

If Sean wants to return and recreate it in his vision after being an absentee landlord for so long well it should be interesting to see what comes if it.

 

Oh, come on now. What;s he gonna do , read and scan all the posts , respond to all the new reports coming in from the hopeful  (    )

 

and then take action on people

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnPUe80oBZw

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

 

You however Nungali are riding high right now with support and it is shameful.

 

You are better than that.

 

[sean]

5 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

So what Sean is the way foreword? I would be glad to be rid of Trump but Biden is certainly not the answer that would just be a return to Bill and Obama and I for one have had enough of that.

 

Biden's a creepy piece of shit. 😆 I'm much further left than Bernie but IMO he's the only viable center-left option. He's been fighting this fight for decades. Though I'm not holding my breath that he won't be thrown under the bus by shitlibs again.

 

Regardless, while I participate in electoral politics, I also think it can be an entangling distraction.

 

Join a local democratic socialist, anarchist or communist group and meet real people. Decide for yourself if their ideas resonate with you and if they feel like good folks. Ask for book recommendations. There's a long, deep history to all of this. Find ways to get involved. Start small.

 

I said, "there's a better and much more magical way forward than hitching to the reactionary Trump dump-truck." I mean that but I'm finding it difficult to unpack entirely in a soundbite.

 

Maybe a first step for anyone still under this absurd Trump spell is to simply recognize how much of a boring, tried, dead-end it is.

 

It's the exact same story Republicans have been hawking for decades except now incoherently rambled by your retired, senile, grandpa. Throw in some slightly raised volume on the same old, lazy, racist dog whistle bits Reagan deployed, thus cleverly hijacking a philosophically rudderless corporate media financially dependent on spectacle.

 

Trump is not a unique Republican.

 

He's merely the churlish face of it Republicans usually hide behind closed doors. When Republicans (or even most Democrats) disagree with him, it's generally on tone only.

 

Trump's demonic policy positions are nearly all entirely conventional, demonic, Republican policy positions. If there's anything unique about Trump, it's not that he pushes much beyond Republican-standard plagues. It's that he breaks with decorum and "says the quiet part loud." It's that he flagrantly galvanizes his supporters around their most crass, cruel, ignorant and delusional instincts.

 

In a way, I actually appreciate this about Trump.

 

While presently it can certainly feel like Trump's "won the day", I also see that the spell of sham respectability cast by decades of Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Obama "polite murder" style politics is fracturing in his wake. People seem to be waking up a bit and finally seeing, starkly, that the emperor has no clothes and indeed never did.

 

This shared experience of so many, now staring into the unmistakable, unmasked face of American evil is, at the very least, an opportunity to reevaluate and revitalize social values and boundaries.

 

There's no "one weird trick" if only we all did that will save us from our present-day dystopian hell-world to "immanentize the eschaton" 😄. In fact, not to sound hyperbolic, but I think our avoidance of annihilation as a species is far from guaranteed.

 

The "hard pill" of a leftist perspective is a kind of bleak, depressive-realism. Things are really bad, we have very little power, we lose constantly, unbearably beautiful people we deeply love are beaten, jailed and murdered. I think it all demands a widening capacity to presence more and more emotional pain. 😬

 

Behind the vulgar spectacle of smirking politicians, idiotic pundits and inane advertisements for shit we don't need is an incredibly grim, real-life horror movie. It's crushing to see the depth and scope of it.

 

The least fortunate of us are victims in the worst scenes of the horror show. Those outside of it generally try their best to avoid the pain of acknowledging it even exists. "This is fine." Others, whether they like it or not, seem naturally cursed with a deeper capacity for both seeing and "holding" this pain. Many people are driven at least a bit mad when exposed to too much, too suddenly. (Hence why some lefties can come off a bit "unhinged." We've seen some shit.)  There might be a decent shamanic or Kundalini analogy one could make of all this.

 

So I think at least one crucial component is, maybe just an apophatic way of restating what Steve already said so beautifully: Stop turning away from the pain in this world.

 

Don't harden your heart to the suffering of those less fortunate and more vulnerable.

 

I think an indication you're doing this "correctly" is that you'll probably cry more often. And experience more rage. Fun, right? I think this may be the price of admission, if you haven't already paid it. But it's through this, if you can bear it, that I believe you'll also eventually find yourself laughing and loving and creating more. This heart-broken-open place is the foundation from which I hope and believe that we might reenchant this floating world.

 

Anyway, fuck, I hope none of this sounds like life advice. Jesus. I'm not qualified for that shit. 😂

 

Sean

 

[Aetherous]

14 minutes ago, sean said:

Curious, do you consider the bans of racist and violent speech censorship? Because it sounds like we agree that there should be a line in the sand somewhere, just maybe not on precisely where.

 

Sean

 

In terms of the type of censorship that I personally find unsettling, the banning of racist or violent speech is definitely not it. (Any time we "censor", it's technically censorship...but I don't call banning racist or violent speech, censorship). I don't think racism or violence should be allowed here...there's no reason for it, it ruins the place, and it could even lead to legal issues, or potentially worse for anyone directly involved.

Regarding the line in the sand: I'm used to seeing those on the right being strongly mischaracterized by those on the left. For instance, very often falsely labeled as racist, despite not being so whatsoever.

A good example is seeing ralis' post here, where an accusation of racism-etc appeared to come out of nowhere, and seemed to implicate everyone who he disagreed with politically ("there has been enough of such talk here"...sure maybe any time it actually happens is "enough", but the forum really hasn't been some sort of breeding grounds for racists by ANY means, and I'm not sure what rideforever said to elicit that response about racism):
 

So then the banning of actual racism, which was once perfectly clear and acceptable to basically all, can become questionable in its implementation. If the people deciding what happens, owner/admin/mods, believe that those on one side of the political spectrum are all inherently "racist" simply because they have a different perspective of the world (despite not actually doing or saying anything remotely racist), then I think it does quickly shift into actual censorship.

But anyway, it's not my place to make judgment calls on things...just responding with my personal view.

[Zork]

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I occasionally find myself agreeing both to statements expressed by left wingers and right wingers. However, I am not sure if that means I am 'mixing ideologies'. I simply have my own belief system, that I try to keep more or less coherent. Identifying it with either  left or right perspectives doesn't seem to work for me

Well let me put it this way, people that follow an ideology to the letter are fanatics or conformists that either lack the courage or the ethics to diversify.

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The only kind of 'revolution' that could help to truly establish it would be dissociation with national interests altogether on the level of the individual and identification with the cosmos at large. In other words, it would be a revolution in consciousness.

Exactly and this is why it can NEVER happen by force as communists propose.

[Zork]

24 minutes ago, sean said:

Join a local democratic socialist, anarchist or communist group and meet real people.

I had a lot of friends 20 years ago that fell into this category. I can assure you this is not the case.

I love the debates we had but IMHO most of these people either follow communism/anarchy/socialism in theory only or they identify too much with the ideology and lose themselves in the process.

BTW hate in these cases is a two way street. I ve seen them talk very negatively for people that spread opposing ideologies. 

Hate isn't the way. And an ideology that actively encourages a bloody revolution or coup shouldn't be striven.

 

PS all three groups you mention in reality are very different. Why do you put anarchists in left wing? The dissolving of the social structure isn't part of the left wing or right wing categorization but in truth opposes both!

[Michael Sternbach]

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

Well let me put it this way, people that follow an ideology to the letter are fanatics or conformists that either lack the courage or the ethics to diversify.

 

Exactly. And any ideology that deserves to be called one is expected to be bought as a whole. It goes without saying that religions in general belong into this category.

 

By contrast, a true spiritual way will guide you to discover your own truths. This process is what C.G. Jung called individuation.

 

Relatively few people are ready for that. There have been occasions when I was expected to provide exact guidelines, while I considered it more appropriate to throw the ball at the inquirer, so to speak, in order to let them figure out what works for them. However, this resulted in miscommunications, and I found that my efforts were not being appreciated, overall.

 

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

Exactly and this is why it can NEVER happen by force as communists propose.

 

This is true. Only indoctrination with ideologies can be imposed by force of one sort or another, ranging from family and peer pressure to the outright threat of violence ("become a Christian or we kill you!").

[Apech]

Woah.  Where are we going with this?  I always thought this place was more or less free speech - except in extremis i.e. racism, misogyny etc and particularly ad homimen attacks.

 

Open conversation is the way to learn new ideas and opinions and to strengthen and test your own.  If you want me to sign up to anarcho-communism which is basically the wet dream of over privileged middle class kids - count me out.  I want genuine change to the left which gives people dignity, a decent standard of living, healthcare and otherwise lets them do what they want.  I want new models of living which emerge from today not some nineteenth century failed rhetoric.

 

I want maximum free speech on Daobums with some outside limiters to prevent descent into flame wars and so on.

 

 

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Open conversation is the way to learn new ideas and opinions and to strengthen and test your own. 

On the contrary, in my experience, talking about politics in fora is more akin to a shouting contest. People are too entrenched in their own views to make anything constructive out of these arguments.

Your experience may vary but i have NEVER seen an exception in the 16+ years i have been frequenting fora.

[C T]

38 minutes ago, Zork said:

On the contrary, in my experience, talking about politics in fora is more akin to a shouting contest. People are too entrenched in their own views to make anything constructive out of these arguments.

Your experience may vary but i have NEVER seen an exception in the 16+ years i have been frequenting fora.

 

When you stick it out here long enough, you will see many, many instances where voices of reason prevail. 

TDB stands unique in this regard, and thats why it has stood strong the test of time. 

Having strong opinions and views need not be reason to shout and bully. 

When these views are not held confidently, holders resort to unmannerly conduct. 

This applies quite universally. 

[Zork]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

When you stick it out here long enough, you will see many, many instances where voices of reason prevail. 

There is no such thing as voice of reason in politics.

Unless someone is part of the system he/she has limited perspective of what is going on and thus a skidded opinion.

12 minutes ago, C T said:

This applies quite universally

No it doesn't. It is common for someone to hold a "correct" opinion and not have the eloquence, the mental awareness or the time and effort required to support his/her opinion.

[C T]

13 minutes ago, Zork said:

There is no such thing as voice of reason in politics.

Unless someone is part of the system he/she has limited perspective of what is going on and thus a skidded opinion.

No it doesn't. It is common for someone to hold a "correct" opinion and not have the eloquence, the mental awareness or the time and effort required to support his/her opinion.

 

I thought your comment was quite specific in referencing the impossibility of reason among forum members when it comes to political discourse, and not a general absence of. This explains why I think TDB's different from all your other experiences. 

 

Without mental awareness, it can be challenging to hold a correct opinion confidently. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by C T

[Zork]

7 minutes ago, C T said:

Without mental awareness, it can be challenging to hold a correct opinion confidently. 

Yes but a possible absence of it diminishes the worth of the conversation to that individual not to mention others who form wrong impressions

 

Please consider again how many of those who hold "correct" opinions have the time, the capability and the willingness to put the effort to support their opinion?

[ilumairen]

 

Just now, Zork said:

Please consider again how many of those who hold "correct" opinions have the time, the capability and the willingness to put the effort to support their opinion?

 

When people are ready, they'll look deeper themselves, imo, and prior to this readiness it would be a bit like just soo much wind to continue..

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

When people are ready, they'll look deeper themselves, imo, and prior to this readiness it would be a bit like just soo much wind to continue..

 

Part of the process which leads to looking deeper is expressing your opinions and being challenged.  (imo)

[Zork]

9 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

When people are ready, they'll look deeper themselves, imo, and prior to this readiness it would be a bit like just soo much wind to continue..

You mean IF people are ready. "When" shows confidence it will happen. Guess what? It won't! We are going the opposite direction for millenia now. And people lack both the knowledge and self inquiry to understand. Those who do, don't bother anyway.

[C T]

8 minutes ago, Zork said:

Yes but a possible absence of it diminishes the worth of the conversation to that individual not to mention others who form wrong impressions

 

Please consider again how many of those who hold "correct" opinions have the time, the capability and the willingness to put the effort to support their opinion?

 

In considering within the confines of TDB, I'd say there are many willing individuals who, freed of arrogance, possess both the time and capability to support their views and opinions independently.