rideforever

Gratitude for the Male Patriarchy

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On 2/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, Aetherous said:

whitesilk, no offense, but half of the time I can't comprehend your posts. It's usually good to try and communicate clearly so as to be understood.

 

Lyric: "You've done everything that you could, just like any decent person would." Did you even watch the video yet @Aetherous?

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Posted (edited)

A relationship can be a delicious stew with lots of rich flavors that dance on the tongue, a stew that`s nourishes the soul down to the last bite because no single spice is allowed to take over the dish.  Yes, there might be healthy dominance and submission -- of both parties.  Sometimes one person specializes in bringing home the bacon while the other fries it up in the pan.  That`s OK.  But we are more than the masks we wear -- provider, homemaker, mom, dad -- and beyond the inevitable conflicts about sex and money and taking out the trash, beyond our cultural programming about what it means to be male or female, beyond our fear of honest connection and the nasty ways we pretend not to be afraid, beyond all that we can find -- if we`re curious and tenacious and bold --the deep conviction that we are where we belong and coming on home.

Edited by liminal_luke
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On 1.3.2019 at 5:33 AM, ilumairen said:

 

What constitutes a strong male?

 

One who holds his own. Leadership qualities. Confidence. Assertiveness. And yes, challenging and demanding at times.

 

On 1.3.2019 at 5:33 AM, ilumairen said:

And what if a woman is expected to submit to a weak male? 

 

 

 

That would be an entirely different discussion. I am not talking about external socio-cultural pressures here, but about an internal drive that I believe many women have. Aethereous got that right in his comment on my post.

 

And either you can identify with what I shared, or you can't.

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On 1.3.2019 at 5:55 AM, Aetherous said:

 

I'm not answering in place of Lakshmi, but it seems that she never mentioned anything about being "expected to" submit. I also suspect that, like all women, she wouldn't submit to someone if she didn't want to.

 

On 1.3.2019 at 6:12 AM, ilumairen said:

 

And sometimes the choice is momentarily taken away... 

 

I am not quite sure what you mean by that.

 

On 1.3.2019 at 6:12 AM, ilumairen said:

There is much roiling beneath the surface for me in this moment.. the comment about if women forget this aspect of their nature then they shouldn't be surprised when men forget what it means to be male.. is, imo, a rather naive statement.

 

Is it really? How can you expect men to manifest aforesaid qualities if they are not being appreciated for it?

 

On 1.3.2019 at 6:12 AM, ilumairen said:

And one I'm honestly a bit irritated by. 

 

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20 hours ago, whitesilk said:

 

@Lakshmi Is this your conception of male patriarchy, or the male's conception of male patriarchy that you are submitting to?

 

Rather a perception than a conception.

 

20 hours ago, whitesilk said:

Perhaps, I am confusing male hegemony with male patriarchy?

 

 

 

It seems that way.

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Good to hear someone enjoys sex !!!
Well, to me it seems that many people have hangups due to bad experiences, and I only know of ways to heal that take time, and it's worth doing -  but I don't know of quick fixes.   

That's one reason I do ZZ 1hr a day, and carefully choose the most rapid and powerful qigongs and techniques.
Others have no hangups and are more ready to wield life energies.

Some never really fix these problems.

Here are some bits from David Deida's book "Blue Truth".

 

 

blue.jpg

blue2.jpg

blue3.jpg

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5 hours ago, Lakshmi said:

 

One who holds his own. Leadership qualities. Confidence. Assertiveness. And yes, challenging and demanding at times.

 

 Are you only talking about sexual relations?

 

Because there is a great deal more I would add if the subject was broader, and people of both sexes can be challenging and demanding at times. 

 

Quote

 

That would be an entirely different discussion. I am not talking about external socio-cultural pressures here, but about an internal drive that I believe many women have. Aethereous got that right in his comment on my post.

 

Patriarchy is a societal/familial structure that seems able induce socio-cultural pressures. And if all you are commenting on is sex, and your personal preferences that is your own business..

 

Quote

And either you can identify with what I shared, or you can't.

 

Interesting that you miss the idea of what patriarchy actually is, and then suggest either I can identify with you or I can't. 

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I wrote: "And sometimes the choice is momentarily taken away"

 

6 hours ago, Lakshmi said:

I am not quite sure what you mean by that.

 

In the U.S. a rape is reported every 6.5 minutes, there are numerous beatings, hospitalizations, and some murders. These would be rather clear examples imo. Perhaps you see it differently? Perhaps the women should have just been more appreciative of the man's leadership qualities, confidence and assertiveness?

 

Quote

Is it really? How can you expect men to manifest aforesaid qualities if they are not being appreciated for it?

 

There are many great qualities that many men naturally manifest - whether there is a woman hanging about to faun over their greatness and shower them with appreciation or not. It can be natural expression, and something far greater than desire for feminine approval.

 

You present this as if it's some great insight... 

 

But no, a man who beats his wife into obedience doesn't deserve appreciation for his leadership qualities and assertiveness. 

 

Do you believe that the ills of society (i.e. rape and violence as primary examples) would be solved if women were only more appreciative of men?

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Posted (edited)
On 3/1/2019 at 12:31 AM, Aetherous said:

True femininity inspires men, and helps them aspire toward noble things. Just like true masculinity, I think it's a subject which is hard for all of us to understand these days.

 

And this is still very androcentric. 

 

Don't you yourself aspire toward noble things - without feminine inspiration?

 

BTW I recall all the "real woman..." memes of a few years back, and this idea of true femininity and true masculinity is striking me the same way. Kinda like true Christians and real Taoists.

Edited by ilumairen

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27 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

There are many great qualities that many men naturally manifest - whether there is a woman hanging about to faun over their greatness and shower them with appreciation or not. It can be natural expression, and something far greater than desire for feminine approval.

Very true. True qualities manifest independent of validation just like true integrity does not depend upon a witness to do the right thing.

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3 hours ago, rideforever said:

Good to hear someone enjoys sex !!!

 

And do you recognize that it is only through a loosening of patriarchal mores that she is able to openly express, and perhaps experience, such? ;)

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And do you recognize that it is only through a loosening of patriarchal mores that she is able to openly express, and perhaps experience, such?

 

Is there a patriarchy ?
It says there is on TVNews so that it creates anger in people who feel wronged.
And people who feel wronged make very good customers.
Is there a patriarchy, and what is actually meant by the term ?

If you live through the TV wars that push everyone's buttons then you are not really interested in yourself.

 

Just look at the Yellow Jacket protests.
Adults who stand i the street wearing fluorescent protection jackets.
It's quite pathetic.
You would think people hadn't walked to the top of all the mountains, the bottom of the sea, the Moon and so on.
But maybe that was another era.

People just feel fear, partly due to the news, partly due to the lack of contact with physical work, due to urbanisation.
 

Such people .... are not part of any serious conversation.   I pity them as all the truth is simply removed from their view, and they are turned into hungry ghost consumers with media pouring fear into their eyes.   A whole generation.

 

Edited by rideforever
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Just now, rideforever said:

 

Is there a patriarchy ?
It says there is on TVNews so that it creates anger in people who feel wronged.
And people who feel wronged make very good customers.

 

:laughing: My sisters and I did not watch much tv news as children as my father did not feel it was appropriate for us, and still received an education in patriarchy - which was just the way things were. My father was certainly the head of the household, and the moral authority. Just as my grandfather was. We were set beneath the eldest male family member.. as clearly expressed in the story I shared about swimming. 

 

On my father's side, I was the eldest grandchild, and cherished as such - with the clear understanding that if a male grandchild were to be born, the favor I received would then fall upon him, as the eldest male - gender taking precedence over birth order. 

 

Just now, rideforever said:

Is there a patriarchy, and what is actually meant by the term ?

 

The definitions are posted in the thread what is patriarchy. It is a familial and societal structure. 

 

Just now, rideforever said:

If you live through the TV wars that push everyone's buttons then you are not really interested in yourself.

 

My step grandfather was quite surprised when my step mom told him I didn't even own a t.v. It led to an interesting discussion.. but the short of this little anecdote is that if you believe the statement above somehow refers to me, you are mistaken. 

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34 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

It is a familial and societal structure. 

 

Well you have your views on it given the kind of family you had. 

Like I said yang meridiens are on the exterior, so there is not anything unusual or unnatural for the external form of human groups to be male as they are in lions, nor does that have any bearing on people's ability to express their lives fully nor on who has more power.


So what is the problem and why everyone worrying about it now ?
Like I said I never heard the term before 2000.


The world is shifting and I would say people are just not growing into adults ... then no structures make any sense as nobody does their job.    If an father is weak, or if a mother is useless, then you just have a collection of unhappy non-growing people, and not a family.

Most appropriate structure for current society is kindergarten.

 

But seeing this, anyone with any intelligence would want to give dignity to their life and grow into an adult even if no-one else is doing it.   And that means doing many new things and not getting involved in the empty arguing in the media.

 

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Posted (edited)

And historical structuring?

 

I suspect you most likely did hear the term, as it was presented in both Sociology and History classes.

 

Everyone seems to know the story of Henry VIII and his quest for a male heir. 

 

Prior to this, is the story of Eleanor of Aquitane - a French queen who produced only daughters with her French King, and was granted an annulment by the Catholic church (an entirely patriarchal structure).

 

The daughters were deemed 'legitimate' in spite of the annulment. (moral authority)

 

Eleanor then married the future king of England, who during a prolonged period of time later in their marriage kept her imprisoned.

 

Prior to this was The Anarchy where Henry I's attempt to leave his daughter, the Empress Matilda, as the heir to the throne, was thwarted by men who swore her allegiance while her father was alive, and determined they would not be ruled by a woman upon his death.

 

Many times England fell into crises over the issue of male heirs (or lack there of).

 

Eventually I'll get to the more recent (and perhaps less readily known or apparent) examples. And even without going so far as to lay it all out, I'm having a hard time believing that this denial of patriarchy is anything more than willful ignorance. 

Edited by ilumairen
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And women when they are disappointed by men, some of them demand for a change in society.

Well they just need to find a better man, who can actually be a Man, so that you can be a Woman.

And that takes courage, getting the soapbox out doesn't take courage.

Everyone deteriorating into frightened babies to be "equal", it's not a solution, it's just fake and suicidal.   

Life is for living.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, rideforever said:

And women when they are disappointed by men, some of them demand for a change in society.

 

I am attempting to have intelligent and informed conversation. 

 

And instead of addressing anything actually presented... you continue to pontificate instead of discus. 

 

Quote

Well they just need to find a better man, who can actually be a Man, so that you can be a Woman.

 

Oh my stars! Please do enlighten me as to how I am not a woman. What is a Woman to you?

 

Quote

And that takes courage, getting the soapbox out doesn't take courage.

 

Yet, you're still standing on it. 

 

Quote

Everyone deteriorating into frightened babies to be "equal", it's not a solution, it's just fake and suicidal. 

 

You're the one who keeps 'wailing' over anything I've presented. And I don't subscribe to everyone being "equil". 

 

Quote

Life is for living.

 

In this you have my full agreement. 

Edited by ilumairen
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3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

And this is still very androcentric. 


I can't handle any form of feminism, ilumairen, as I view it as entirely destructive. You are free to think feel and believe whatever you want, but I will end up leaving any discussions that go toward that (which this response of yours absolutely does). Feel free to continue being you, in whatever form that is.

This being said - I almost typed it up saying the reverse, as well - that true masculinity inspires the feminine in women, and improves their lives. But I deleted that part, thinking it wasn't at all necessary to say. So, no, my perspective was not androcentric, and even if it was, who cares: I'm a man, and look at the title of the thread.

 

3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Don't you yourself aspire toward noble things - without feminine inspiration?

 

Yes, but perhaps I wouldn't have ever become what I am if the truly feminine hadn't existed. I can think back to specific times in my life where I came across a truly feminine girl or woman, and it really changed and inspired me.

I'm not one of those sleazy guys who "worship shakti" or think of women as the "goddess" or talk of the "divine feminine" and elevate women to a place they're not meant to be elevated to, etc. But true femininity is a really special thing for men. The world needs more of it, and needs less feminism.

Well, at least in our society. In places like Iran, they need feminism.

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1 minute ago, Aetherous said:


I can't handle any form of feminism, ilumairen, as I view it as entirely destructive. You are free to think feel and believe whatever you want, but I will end up leaving any discussions that go toward that (which this response of yours absolutely does). Feel free to continue being you, in whatever form that is.

 

You can come and go as you wish my friend. I'll be here, willing to engage in dialog with you as you feel comfortable with it. 

 

1 minute ago, Aetherous said:


This being said - I almost typed it up saying the reverse, as well - that true masculinity inspires the feminine in women, and improves their lives. But I deleted that part, thinking it wasn't at all necessary to say. So, no, my perspective was not androcentric, and even if it was, who cares: I'm a man, and look at the title of the thread.

 

It would have been helpful if you had said it, and I would also question that. Yes, through each other people can find the wholeness within, or at least an outward semblance of it. And at the same time... It can be a crutch - until it's not. 

 

To borrow from dwai.. you're already that. 

 

1 minute ago, Aetherous said:

 

Yes, but perhaps I wouldn't have ever become what I am if the truly feminine hadn't existed. I can think back to specific times in my life where I came across a truly feminine girl or woman, and it really changed and inspired me.

I'm not one of those sleazy guys who "worship shakti" or think of women as the "goddess" or talk of the "divine feminine" and elevate women to a place they're not meant to be elevated to, etc. But true femininity is a really special thing for men. The world needs more of it, and needs less feminism.

Well, at least in our society. In places like Iran, they need feminism.

 

Would it surprise you if I told you many of the men who have come into my life view me in the manner you have described, and have shared such with me?

 

And this would include the man whose member is scarred for being soo brazen as to put it where it did not belong while I was sleeping. 

 

Women can be both dear Aetherous.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

I suspect you most likely did hear the term, as it was presented in both Sociology and History classes.

 

No, I don't think so.  We have Queen Elizabeth II, who has been reigning my whole life, Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May, also the first Queen Elizabeth is extremely highly regarded.   In 1918 both men and women were in principle given Universal Suffrage on the same day, and there have been BBC news anchors and top journalists both men and women throughout my lifetime, also the head of the IOD (Institute of Company Directors) for donkeys years was Ruth Lea, another woman.
But we have a lot of humour and comedy here, and don't need to push anything on anyone, there is room for anyone.

So no, I have never ever heard the term or anyone complain until quite recently.

Even the first feminists who where standing protesting when I was young for CND at Greenham Common airbase, were wearing long skirts.
Men stood in the football stands with their grandfathers and cheered like hooligans, and nobody cared, as it's a tradition going back to working in the coalmines.
They we all go to the pub and get shitfaced.

 

So there was never "a struggle" or any problem whatsoever.   Until the recent generation.

 

Re-interpreting the past according to some agenda ... and the ongoing bickering about several new social ideas ... that takes up a lot of airtime; I see that simply as a result of people not having any work to do, any meaning, or any physical contact.

So they just keep shopping and taking prozac and buying news, just like they are meant to.

 

Did I mention Queen Victoria, and Albert the Consort.
Or Britannia (Britain is the name of the island that England is on).

Perhaps we are more of a Catholic country, somehow quite religious, and repentant.
Different to the US.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by rideforever

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

The daughters were deemed 'legitimate' in spite of the annulment.

 

You can also ask yourself why the outer meridiens are Yang, and why in the historical record the vast majority of outer forms of society are male. Why would this be do you think ?  The answer is obvious.

 

Because matriarchies got killed that's why.

"God" made this planet that way so please file a complaint with him if you like.

 

Why do we have to fight bacteria and have an immune system ?
Who cares, we do so get on with it.

 

Why do we have a soft inner belly, and hard outer shell.

Please file a complaint with "God" once again.

 

If you don't like it ... perhaps you don't feel it provides you with the opportunities you like.

Well, for men, not all men are the king, most are cannon fodder.

So we can all file a complaint together, with our grievances that life is not fair.

 

Or we just become competent with what is in front of us, in the reality that "God" put in front of us.

And then we find that it is quite alright.
Pretty goddam awesome actually.

 

Edited by rideforever

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Different to the US.

 

Yes, different. For whatever reason the U.S. is more violent, and more lethally so.

 

My great grandfather was a coal minor in Wales, until a traumatic brain injury led the family to move to London. 

 

Thank you for being personable with me. 

 

Edit to add that I hadn't realized you were English, and would not have received the same standardized education. 

Edited by ilumairen

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21 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

You can also ask yourself why the outer meridiens are Yang, and why in the historical record the vast majority of outer forms of society are male. Why would this be do you think ?  The answer is obvious.

 

Because matriarchies got killed that's why.

"God" made this planet that way so please file a complaint with him if you like.

 

Why do we have to fight bacteria and have an immune system ?
Who cares, we do so get on with it.

 

Why do we have a soft inner belly, and hard outer shell.

Please file a complaint with "God" once again.

 

If you don't like it ... perhaps you don't feel it provides you with the opportunities you like.

Well, for men, not all men are the king, most are cannon fodder.

So we can all file a complaint together, with our grievances that life is not fair.

 

Or we just become competent with what is in front of us, in the reality that "God" put in front of us.

And then we find that it is quite alright.
Pretty goddam awesome actually.

 

 

Oi vey.. are you trying to shut me down again?

 

Assumptions and more assumptions..

 

Are we actually going to have a conversation at some point in time? 

 

Hell, I'd even make you tea and cookies. 

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