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Common in the Tao Te Ching is the idea that the sage chooses 'this' over 'that.' It is always a simple choice. A yes or no question. I ask you in your reality to think beyond this simple choice as I propose the question, What do you follow more, Nature or People?

 

My answer is 'Nature.'

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A sage does not choose nature over people. A sage goes (chooses) the natural flow of things, but never leaves a person behind. Chapter 27 explains this point well.

 

 

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The sage surrenders to the flow of Nature that he has studied, respects and understands, through his intelligence devotion and sincerity.
The sage appreciates the nourishing joy of Nature that effortlessly gives birth to virtue.

The sage sees how mankind does not follow and the dire consequences.

The sage helps mankind where possible, and retreats from mankind where necessary.

The sage follows the laws of Tao, and not the laws of man.

The sage reflects reality more and more perfectly.

 

72

When men lack a sense of awe, there will be disaster.
Do not intrude in their homes.
Do not harass them at work.
If you do not interfere, they will not weary of you.
Therefore the sage knows himself but makes no show,
Has self-respect but is not arrogant.
He lets go of that and chooses this.

 

> He does not look outside of himself for justification, he embraces this, the Tao.

 

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I suppose one might offer Nature v. People as Instinct v. Perception.

 

Our own nature is to follow our instinct.

 

Our perception of other people modifies that instinct.

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

A sage does not choose nature over people. A sage goes (chooses) the natural flow of things, but never leaves a person behind. Chapter 27 explains this point well.

 

 

 

I think you may be misunderstanding his intent. 

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3 hours ago, whitesilk said:

My answer is 'Nature.'

 

I am one who observes and abides in what is natural..

Some label it the tao, I choose not to ,  I call my self "no name" 

reflecting my thoughts on this. 

 

There may be others of like minds,  of  this I am sure 

some post here.

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3 hours ago, whitesilk said:

Common in the Tao Te Ching is the idea that the sage chooses 'this' over 'that.' It is always a simple choice. A yes or no question. I ask you in your reality to think beyond this simple choice as I propose the question, What do you follow more, Nature or People?

 

My answer is 'Nature.'

My answer , without a doubt, like that sage who isn't in doubt either, is that I enact the ways of people ( human person). 

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On 2/20/2019 at 11:18 AM, ilumairen said:

 

I think you may be misunderstanding his intent. 

 

Not sure I agree... when we divide things up, we miss the whole... asking to pick between nature and people seems to miss the point that Laozi shared:  1>2>3>Ten Thousand.     While we can follow the sequence, if we break them up as separate things then we lose the message that they are just a transformation of multiplicity of sameness.  

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32 minutes ago, dawei said:

if we break them up as separate things then we lose the message that they are just a transformation of multiplicity of sameness. 

 

Those who follow Tao Nature express Tao at all levels.

 

1 > 2 > 3 > 10,000  ... can be summarised as follows :

1 > Creation

 

In the meditative absorbed state all reverts to 1, but as soon as Creation occurs it is Yin-Yang.   Which can be considered 5 Elements if you include the transitions between poles, or 10,000,000 to those ignorant who are lost in sense pleasures.

 

Those who follow the Tao therefore in Creation follow Yin-Yang, and in Meditative Absorption are absorbed as 1.

 

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My intent was based from text:

 

Wen Tzu [110]

 

"... When you know what Nature does and know how people act, then you have the means to get through the world. If you know Nature but do not know people, then you have no way to interact with society. If you know people but do not know Nature, you have no means to travel along the Way..."

Edited by whitesilk
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3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Not sure I agree... when we divide things up, we miss the whole... asking to pick between nature and people seems to miss the point that Laozi shared:  1>2>3>Ten Thousand.     While we can follow the sequence, if we break them up as separate things then we lose the message that they are just a transformation of multiplicity of sameness.  

 

 

2 hours ago, whitesilk said:

My intent was based from text:

 

Wen Tzu [110]

 

"... When you know what Nature does and know how people act, then you have the means to get through the world. If you know Nature but do not know people, then you have no way to interact with society. If you know people but do not know Nature, you have no means to travel along the Way..."

 

Thanks guys. :)

 

As @rene would say, "both - same time".

 

The dividing certainly assists navigating. :lol:

 

I'll leave you guys to thrash out the particulars, such as what is being referred to as way of Nature and way of people.

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4 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

You have shown wisedome of patience @ilumairen

Yeah, she's a real patient kinda girl. Until she's not. Just sayin.

^_^

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When you know people, what does it actually mean ?

Does it mean you join with them in their activities as they are ?
Does it mean you accept all that they do and lose yourself in it ?

 

Society has a conversation, and within it are many ideas mostly these are imaginary and reflect ignorance. (a)
And then beneath are the true rules of society and of life, or Tao. (b)

 

This causes a problem because a person that appears before you often will talk of (a).

How to respond ?
Most people respond by talking of (a) because they are also ignorant and lost in society's words.

This is why this world is called Maya, or illusion, or a world of blind beings who know not the hour or the day.

 

How does a man of Tao respond ?

Well first he must become a man of Tao who knows (b) this can take a long time, and if he wishes he can also study (a)  or "the ways of men".

 

Then how shall he respond ?
If the person in front has no interest in the way then you can consciously mirror such a person, talking of (a) but actually following(b).
If they have an interest in the way then you can discuss (b) with them ... there are very few situations like this in open society.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, rene said:

Yeah, she's a real patient kinda girl. Until she's not. Just sayin.

^_^

 

Yeah, I'm the girl who poisoned my allies whole army to end a war... ^_^

 

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On 2/20/2019 at 7:18 AM, whitesilk said:

 this simple choice as I propose the question, What do you follow more, Nature or People?

 

My answer is 'Nature.'

I'll have to say People, because in my urban environment I live far from Nature.  I fall out of touch with all but its grossest rhythms.  ie I'm affected by winter, but not the western wind.  I know when the moon wanes and waxes but not the planets.  I'm largely out of touch with nature.   

Edited by thelerner
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3 hours ago, rene said:

Yeah, she's a real patient kinda girl. Until she's not. Just sayin.

^_^

Rene I bequeath upon thee the " NO SHIT!! AWARD!! " :D

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1 hour ago, thelerner said:

I'll have to say People, because in my urban environment I live far from Nature.  I fall out of touch with all but its grossest rhythms.  ie I'm affected by winter, but not the western wind.  I know when the moon wanes and waxes but not the planets.  I'm largely out of touch with nature.   

Lucky for you Tao is also in the shit. :D 

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According to linji there is no safe place in the triple jeweled world, taking note that Linji himself might just be a Taoist in a Buddhist disguise.

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Well, it's interesting how the world is an expression of our mass consciousness and the Devil is buried in its details...

 

Now, ancient aboriginal societies revered Nature, and their artwork (petroglyphs, tattoos, etc) commonly depicted wildlife accurately, shamans often dressed as animals, and they were often viewed as spirit totems.  Essentially, they wanted to be more like animals and Nature...

image_3781_1-Red-Deer-Headdress.jpg

bearman.jpg

Whereas "colonialist Christian" civilization clearly views humanity as superior to Nature, and so its pop cult depictions of wildlife are often anthropomorphized like Disney, instead.  Basically, animals can't simply be appreciated as-is, but must be "civilized" and humanized in order to be.  And so animals must be made more human, not the other way around...

220px-Mickey_Mouse.png

Edited by gendao
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These things represent the problem of mankind to integrate the animal brain with the new brain.


To make the new brain work as it should it requires a shift in consciousness UP, which is not easy, but Christ was a being who triggered such a shift in a lot of people.  The reason for this is that the new brain allows for a radical higher sense of ourselves as individuals, so that we no longer depend on the collective consciousness, we tear ourselves off through self-recognition "I Am".


Christ has lasted for a long time and still does in some places, in others places society has shifted back down to the normal state of man which is :

animal mind + corrupt half working new mind >> which is a big unhappy mess, and eventually even the animal mind gets corrupted.


And frighteningly as people build there world they create healthy or extremely unhealthy societies ... which further damage people's outside conditions and information and who they are .... which leads to extreme suffering.   As agriculture and other changes have happened, so have people's bodies and their education and environment > each one affects the possibilities for development.   Humans having such fragile consciousness are not solid, they are vulnerable to changes.   For instance the reduction of minerals in the arable land as a result of industrialisation means the food is not very good.


Many humans live in extreme suffering, but with many buffers and fragments in the psyche .... which helps them not to feel it so much, or know very much.


The only solution is shifting up the new mind (awakening) and then integrating the animal into it.   Few do this. 

 

Traditionally some try to awaken the new mind and discard the animal (which isn't possible) so they keep renouncing until they die not comprehending why it doesn't work.

 

Others try to return to nature (to the animal) and discard the new mind like killing your thoughts (which isn't possible) .... but these efforts can have benefits and succeed in bringing some peace to a life.


The animal in its natural condition is holy, the new mind in its natural condition is holy, and the awakening and merging of the two is the final condition. 

 

Why are there thoughts going round my head ?   It is one example of the new mind trying to activate itself.   Also some thoughts are representation of the animal mind.   

 

My emotions are bad, anger, sadness, depression ?   Well have a poorly working new-mind in the head, creates many headaches and you can start to distrust your sex-energy or your physical energy or anything else.   Distrusting part of you, or distrusting others, is simply a consequence of being fragmented inside.

 

Edited by rideforever

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

The only solution is shifting up the new mind (awakening) and then integrating the animal into it.   Few do this.

 

An awakened mind has multiple solutions to conflict. It does not formulize one goal. It uses its awareness moment by moment to advocate for the solution in mind, and is able to comprimise that the intended solution may not be its original estimation of it. 

 

Please for my sake @rideforever, do not be so extreme in your word choice, my technical awakened mind is seeking conclusion to our conflict.

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14 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

An awakened mind has multiple solutions to conflict. It does not formulize one goal. It uses its awareness moment by moment to advocate for the solution in mind, and is able to comprimise that the intended solution may not be its original estimation of it. 

 

You don't understand what I am saying, what you are talking about is being in the subconscious mind and trying to fix things.   Or, you are stuck in your head and haven't enough access outside to see things.

 

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