eum0rb1a

breath rhythm for baduanjin (8 brocade)

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Good day,

I'm looking for any advice about breathing rhythm/technique in baduanjin practice. I am a complete novice, so I'm not after anything advanced right now. While I have have natural, diaphragmatic breathing more or less down (not reverse), I find myself getting a bit thrown off when breath is paired with the motions. I understand that it's not great to focus overmuch on the breath, but rather to go about it more simply. That said, I think my practice would benefit from some pointers in this area. From what I've read, it seems like one is to inhale while raising the body into each position, and exhale as the body resumes its resting position. One specific question I have is, if one goes through the motions very slowly, how does the slow speed effect the rhythm of the breath? I don't want to strain myself by holding out breaths beyond what feels natural at my level, nor do I want to fall back into stilted, chaotic breathing.

Thank you for any advice

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Inhale to open, exhale to close, generally. If youre coordinating breath with movement, move at the speed of breath, not the other way round--let your breathing guide the movement. Ultimately you want to feel the whole body breathing, which is just seamless coordination of opening/closing. If you feel the need to move super slow, then just breath normally, dont try and cooridinate with the motions.

 

8)

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move at the speed of breath, not the other way round

This is extremely helpful, and you put it so succinctly. I definitely find myself making this mistake--attempting to fit the breath to the speed of the movements, which is probably a cause of some discomfort and feelings of unnaturalness. As I still need to work on getting my movements more fluid, I continue to follow along with a video. While this is really helpful, and I think pretty crucial this early in the game, it's probably also a hindrance, as I'm trying to match the video's rhythm, rather than experience my own.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it. Your advice made something  'click'  a bit more, and I look forward to applying this when I practice.

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I’d like to offer a differet approach which i think is applicable to most of the brocades that i found gave me good support and coordination when i did them. It will seem quite opposite to what @Astral Monk suggested but try both, see what you think differs and how both methods influence your movement and feeling.

 

Exhale on outgoing, expressive movements such as a punch or letting an arrow fly, taking a step forward etc.

Inhale when you gather up your body, retract, pull in or close.

Both styles of abdominal breathing work pretty well with this pattern.

At some points it’s not wrong to accentuate the  ovement with your breath for about a tenth of a second. As in when you ”draw the bow” you breathe in and maybe just let that last little moment before you let the arrow fly be one where you just breath in a little quicker and hold until you let the arrow go.

Same with that punching exercise: when you punch supposedly ”lands” let your exhale be just a tiny bit more powerful and come to a ful hold within a tenth of a second, then release the punch and exhale whatever is left before you rechamber your fist.

 

Summarizing: breathe out when you express or have an outgoing movement, breath in when you gather your body such as stepping back, retracting your hand etc.

Accent (almost imperceptibly) any culmination of a movement (landing a punch, reaching the maximum tension of your bow and arrow, when you finish transferring your body weight in a certain direction etc) and then continue where you were in your exhale/inhale cycle.

 

This more of a martial approach to any exercise, expressing and transmitting power, using breath mechanics to stabilize the whole body so your shoulders and hips work together.

 

Dont make anything more forceful, just breathe out when you go out from your body and in when you gather again, accentuate where appropriate, you probably know where and when. Test it out, find a comfortable pattern with this and compare to the other method.

 

PS.

Decide which of the two is your ”main” method of breath and let the other be your ”variation”, maybe switch positions between them after a few months and see how that feels!

 

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My personal interpretation: if the original instructions say something like, "perform the bow and arrow exercise as if pulling a 70 pound bow", then we have to think why they would add that part about the weight of the bow. It must be because we're supposed to pretend as best we can that it actually is that strong of a pull...in which case, what do we do when we pull a bow that heavy? I think it changes our breathing...I would not think that we inhale during the opening pull (or maybe we do, probably would be best to actually find a heavy bow and see what we do naturally when pulling it). Usually exertion is accompanied by either an exhale or a breath hold. Practicing it the modern way, doing gentle movements and timing the breath, is interesting but it may not be the original intention of the exercises.

So, some people might want to find the first time the method was written down, and see what it says. The exercises in baduanjin are also found in other groupings of exercises, or even on their own, and sometimes have different instructions.

Alternatively, we can alter exercises to suit our purposes, if we know the effects of changing different aspects. But sometimes experimenting can lead to disastrous results.

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57 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Practicing it the modern way, doing gentle movements and timing the breath, is interesting but it may not be the original intention of the exercises.

Thanks for the interesting reply.

From what I've read (please correct me if I'm mistaken), it's thought that the baduanjin exercises may have indeed been created for soldiers. If so, then you are right that the bow-pulling instructions were a lot more practically grounded for the earliest practitioners. That said, it seems like the gentle, 'modern way' has been practiced for some time (centuries?) for both physical and spiritual health--and some of these methods/technique seem pretty time-tested.

I am not a soldier, nor have I ever attempted to pull back a 70 pound bow, so this is an interesting perspective to view it from.

Do you have any specific insight/advice regarding these exercises?

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2 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Summarizing: breathe out when you express or have an outgoing movement, breath in when you gather your body such as stepping back, retracting your hand etc.

Accent (almost imperceptibly) any culmination of a movement (landing a punch, reaching the maximum tension of your bow and arrow, when you finish transferring your body weight in a certain direction etc) and then continue where you were in your exhale/inhale cycle.

 

Thanks for this. You are right, this is the opposite of astralmonk's advice! It is cool to see varying techniques working for different practitioners. I'm glad this way works for you. Ha, I've probably done both methods in rapid succession simply by fumbling in and out of my rhythm, beginner that I am.

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Actually, i was gonna say, try doing the opposite way as well...so once you get confortable, you can compare. The difference is like between normal breathing and 'reverse' breathing. Exhaling on openings and inhaling on closings has a different feeling. In martial arts generally, you exhale with strikes. Theres the side punching brochade this might be best applicable to.

 

Thinking about actual bow work, you inhale to draw then release. Never sit there bow drawn holding your breath. So again, follow a more natural pattern.

 

In the draw bow brochade, you can inhale to draw, then exhale once you reach full extension to sink and settle, inhaling to go back to center again. So, a bit of a combination.

 

8)

Edited by Astral Monk
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To really see the difference, try this basic exercise, opening and closing to the side (in SFQ, called 'breathing of the universe'):

 

 

 

Master Li's instruction is inhale to open, exhale to close. Let speed follow breath. Youre opening the ball, then compressing.

 

Once you get a feel for this, try the opposite--exhale to open, inhale to close. In this sense, rather than drawing the ball open from the arms, you are more pushing it open fron the center. And rather than compressing, you are actively drawing in, sucking the ball smaller.

 

Theres always this yin/yang polarity at work though. As Master Li says of the 'whole body breathing' technique, when we inhale (generally, naturally), the pores of our skin close, drawing in energy. When we exhale, they open. So their action seems counter to what we feel as natural breath, which is opening to draw, close to release.

 

8)

Edited by Astral Monk

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29 minutes ago, Astral Monk said:

To really see the difference, try this basic exercise, opening and closing to the side (in SFQ, called 'breathing of the universe'):

Thanks again Astral Monk! This is a good little video--I haven't seen or read much of SFQ, so this seems a great introduction to the style. Is 'breathing of the universe' its common name, or just used in the SFQ system?

 

And yes, right now I think the best way to describe my breathing practice would be a bit of a combination--trying to find what's comfortable. The few times I've tried out reverse breathing it was uncomfortable and rather unnatural feeling. I'm hoping it just takes some time...

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9 hours ago, eum0rb1a said:

Thanks again Astral Monk! This is a good little video--I haven't seen or read much of SFQ, so this seems a great introduction to the style. Is 'breathing of the universe' its common name, or just used in the SFQ system?

 

Thats the Spring Forest title. Generically this type of movement is called 'opening/closing' (to the side), or maybe expanding the energy ball.

 

8)

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