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We start with ourselves because that's who we are, when I put on underpants I put them on me not you.
It's not complicated is it.
If ... we are sincerely interested ... in underpants.

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22 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I think you will find the more you change that others around you will change as well.

 

As Siva has been saying. Start with yourself before worrying about changing others.

 

I've been watching this thread with some interest. And I'd prefer if we could avoid taking anything presented personally, and discuss the issues presented. 

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:33 PM, s1va said:

Btw, there is nothing called righteous anger & rage in my views.  Anger and rage are always destructive and unrighteous.  But, we should never suppress such emotions nor take it out on others.  By separating the stories the mind creates over such emotions, when we just observe and be present with the raw emotion itself, they slowly get released or dissolved.  This is what practices like the 'The Presence Process by Micheal Brown' teaches.

Correct me if I am wrong but we’re there not some suicids associated with Browns work a few years back I seem to recall their being brought up on the AYP site. His books might not be a great example. Hmmmm will have to take a look at them. Thanks for brining this up.

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On 1/31/2019 at 6:50 AM, Zhachev said:

How do folks here deal with frustration, anger, and rage? How can we go on in this world so filled with injustice?

The tides ebb and flow - a wave rises and falls - things are covered and things exposed.

 

We each deal with this living light - often willfully attempting to bend it to our will. Time and again like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

 

 

The Light brings forth a redemption of heart endlessly  - willfulness gives way to giving - this is the nature of Light

 

In giving one is in step with grace and in wholeness - polarity has fallen away.

 

Creation hold no past hostage - it ebbs away the tears of injustice in every moment.

 

In this “relative reality” inertias brace like stones the waters wearing on them and the timidity of unsure footing brings slow change.

 

Railing in torment is a grasping for false pasts and willful futures - it is a rage upon one’s subtle bodies and the general field. 

 

Willfulness is suffering in grasping and tesistance - it is an exercise in our limiting capabilities - the contractions of retreat to our identities.

 

the Light beams forth and we wish to make it clay and take form - simply seeing IN its grace all contraction is awash in Light and is becoming in every breath.

 

The exquisite gold Light is everything and no thing - let fall from your hands the dead - see the grace - be the grace.

 

Breath

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

I've been watching this thread with some interest. And I'd prefer if we could avoid taking anything presented personally, and discuss the issues presented. 

 

How was my post aggressive or even remotely viewed as something taken personally?

 

It sure wasn’t meant to be. 

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1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

How was my post aggressive or even remotely viewed as something taken personally?

 

It sure wasn’t meant to be. 

 

There weren't any thoughts on aggressiveness in my post.

 

Mostly, I felt your words could be taken as somehow dismissive toward the issues presented by @Aetherous, and I'd prefer if the discussion would and could continue. 

 

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Just now, Pilgrim said:

Correct me if I am wrong but we’re there not some suicids associated with Browns work a few years back I seem to recall their being brought up on the AYP site. His books might not be a great example. Hmmmm will have to take a look at them. Thanks for brining this up.

 

Strong purification can result from the Presence Process practices.  I was mentioning more about the framework or the process explained in the book about how emotions and stored habit energy creates many of the major issues.  How observing them consistently from the state of presence slowly dissolves and releases the obstructions.  I dabbled with the breathing and some other practices mentioned in the book and was not impressed or had great results with them.   I got the impression that the practices he suggests are geared towards expelling the outer (bodily) and inner (energy body) toxins.  Like how a full blown Ayurvedic panchakarma purification process temporarily unsettles the system before it cleanse, this clearing of toxins can have a temporary unsettling effect.

 

I knew some practitioners did not like the practice methods. I am not personally aware of anyone having major complications from the practices.  They are just some short breathing practices and some other like hot bath to expel the physical toxins.  May be, I should mention that I appreciate the framework or process in the book, and to take it easy or approach with caution concerning the actual practices. 

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16 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

There weren't any thoughts on aggressiveness in my post.

 

Mostly, I felt your words could be taken as somehow dismissive toward the issues presented by @Aetherous, and I'd prefer if the discussion would and could continue. 

 

 

I was answering his questions honestly.

 

More , it seems you find my posts to add no value and are dismissing my answers. Doing what you are warning me about.

 

No worries, enjoy the thread, I will stay out of it.

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6 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I was answering his questions honestly.

 

More , it seems you find my posts to add no value and are dismissing my answers. Doing what you are warning me about.

 

No worries, enjoy the thread, I will stay out of it.

 

I'd prefer you stayed in it. And at the same time would prefer you didn't assume anything in regards towards another's practice and personal experience. 

 

And no, I generally don't find great value in the whole start with yourself and then worry about others.. especially when I know the individual has started with themselves. 

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Just now, ilumairen said:

 

I'd prefer you stayed in it. And at the same time would prefer you didn't assume anything in regards towards another's practice and personal experience. 

 

And no, I generally don't find great value in the whole start with yourself and then worry about others.. especially when I know the individual has started with themselves. 

 

That is the path, look what Jesus did, the Buddha did.

 

It is not pointing out the wrong in others. Passing laws, taking things from others, condemning others for their views and beliefs.

 

Yes, if everyone worked on themselves instead of thinking the issues was everyone else the world would be a much better place. You would have less greed, lust for power, less self centerness, less want for desires to control, you would have a lot less pain and a whole lot more heart.

 

While we may have started the journey inwards, I think we can all acknowledge there is much more clarity to realize.

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1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

That is the path, look what Jesus did, the Buddha did.

 

It is not pointing out the wrong in others. Passing laws, taking things from others, condemning others for their views and beliefs.

 

I wonder how the Pharisees would view your statement? 

 

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

Yes, if everyone worked on themselves instead of thinking the issues was everyone else the world would be a much better place. You would have less greed, lust for power, less self centerness, less want for desires to control, you would have a lot less pain and a whole lot more heart.

 

And the reality is.. greed, lust for power, etc do exist. Everyone is not going to work on themselves towards spiritual ends. This is life, and, as I understand it presently, part of what @Aetherous was pointing towards.

 

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

While we may have started the journey inwards, I think we can all acknowledge there is much more clarity to realize.

 

Can you define what you mean with the word clarity?

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I cant fix homelessness in the world, but I can give the homeless man I pass a couple bucks or a sandwich.

 

Can’t fix the whole world, but can certainly change my world.  

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45 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Strong purification can result from the Presence Process practices.  I was mentioning more about the framework or the process explained in the book about how emotions and stored habit energy creates many of the major issues.  How observing them consistently from the state of presence slowly dissolves and releases the obstructions.  I dabbled with the breathing and some other practices mentioned in the book and was not impressed or had great results with them.   I got the impression that the practices he suggests are geared towards expelling the outer (bodily) and inner (energy body) toxins.  Like how a full blown Ayurvedic panchakarma purification process temporarily unsettles the system before it cleanse, this clearing of toxins can have a temporary unsettling effect.

 

I knew some practitioners did not like the practice methods. I am not personally aware of anyone having major complications from the practices.  They are just some short breathing practices and some other like hot bath to expel the physical toxins.  May be, I should mention that I appreciate the framework or process in the book, and to take it easy or approach with caution concerning the actual practices. 

Thank you for the nice overview. 

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2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

I think you will find the more you change that others around you will change as well.

 

As Siva has been saying. Start with yourself before worrying about changing others.


That's advice for beginners, which I'm definitely not; not even saying that with an ounce of hubris.

Further down the path, we reach a point where we have focused on and changed ourselves (and/or continue to), and have seen that it hasn't impacted the real problems in the world at all. There are just subtle changes in others we come into contact with (which is a good thing, sure...but not enough).

After that point, one advances to the level of "changing others after you've changed yourself", which is a whole new ballgame. You thought changing yourself was difficult? Try reasoning with someone else, and seeing if they'll budge at all! We advance to this stage, that is, if we have the heart to take up the challenge. Many are prevented from taking action due to adhering to fraudulent philosophies, such as believing that keeping positive thoughts will help someone starving halfway around the world. Or if not actually believing that, lacking action due to excessive focus on themselves, and little sayings which for one reason or another, make them forget about the problems of others.

"If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?" - James 2:15-16 ESV

One of my favorite verses of the Bible.

 

Those on the spiritual path can sometimes lack integrity in certain areas, and this is one of them - we overestimate the impact of our beliefs and inner changes. In reality, in the objective universe, we're still basically the same old person. Just ask your family members if you want to know how enlightened you are. Their laughter will be the most truthful thing you hear.

Another area of lacking integrity is the repression of anger and emotions in general, leading to passive aggressive behavior, disguised as peace. It is anything but peace, and is actually a stronger form of anger than the little feeling we had to begin with. What makes us angry is something that we need to reconcile if we want to advance spiritually. It's an opportunity for character development; but those who have aversion to emotions and anger can miss the chance - for instance, becoming apathetic bliss junkies spouting impotent platitudes, lashing out (politely) at those who say anything disagreeable to them...rather than actually being of service to those in need.

Anger is a poison, sure...but a worse poison is the apathy we assume when we know of children being abused (for instance) and then try to feel and do nothing about it.

Edited by Aetherous
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As a child, I learned a phrase about 'sticks and stones'...  as I grew up, I realized how to use those in offense and defense situations.

 

Then I happened upon a Way that explained 'names'... and I haven't been hurt or hurting others since.   

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2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Definitely not. Therein lies the issue central to this thread: how can we deal with such an unjust and disturbed world? Obviously, attaining realization doesn't solve the real problems.

I think if you go back and reread our exchanges again, you'll see that I'm not making any assumptions, but am trying to hone our spiritual philosophy into something more honest and accurate.

 

I thought about this some more and feel you have a valid point and it is honest and accurate from your perspective.  As long as we hold on to individuality and separation, the problem of suffering cannot be solved for all sentient beings, not even with majority of the world having full realization as Buddhas.  Even if one sentient being is left, we cannot claim it's done or even agree on realization as a universal solution.  Only at the time of pralya or at the dissolution of the current cycle of creation, we will all dissolve into the source from where we came.  But this is not true at this point, so is not relevant.

 

However, I want to point out that you are  looking at this only from the standpoint of relative truth or the individual separation.  The universal truth of non-duality is also valid, from that perspective it can be argued that there we have no problem ever.

 

I propose that you consider this.  You are looking at the problem from within the limitation of time, space and duality and expecting to solve the problem for all.  There is no other way to analyze since mind operates only in time and space.  There are certain realization and awareness that are beyond the local body/mind.  When we get there we start to see (know) things differently.

 

Until a person reaches this state of realizations (there are various layers of realization like the 10 Buddha bhumis) beyond the local body/mind, and they try to analyze and resolve this with the mind, your assertions are 100% valid.  

 

This problem cannot be solved by the mind no matter how sincere or honest the efforts made by the mind are.  Because the very limitations imposed by the mind are the problems.  The mind has to be transcended entirely and when this happens, the solution just starts to shine!

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There`s something to be said for giving a homeless person a bite to eat and a place to sleep rather than just wishing them well.  Also something to be said for changing ourselves and letting those changes ripple out into the world.  I don`t think it`s one or the other.

 

(I love this image and saying below.  It`s by Paul Reps.)

 

DrinkingTeaL.gif

Edited by liminal_luke

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Just been watching Akahige (Red Beard) by Kurasawa.   Two well meaning doctors working in the countryside in ancient Japan, dealing with all manner of terrible things afflicting the poor, and trying to find a way to help people in grave distress.

 

To help even a single person can be very difficult.  To actually love them and share their feelings can be devastating to feel.

 

And as this film shows, to help someone is not to help someone just now, but you have to carry them quite some distance in your arms until they are in safety.   It can be very difficult even for one person.

 

Edited by rideforever
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1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

Can you define what you mean with the word clarity?

Jonesboy I would enjoy reading more of this also please do write back.

Edited by Pilgrim
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Anger as such is not righteous or not, cause that's a categorization made by the rational mind - while anger is a simple emotion emerging from an instinctive base level of consciousness. It is partially linked to the muladhara or root chakra. That chakra energizes our adrenal glands and ties in with the well known fight-or-flight response.

 

Anger is therefore a natural reaction to certain stimuli which helped our ancestors survive the threats posed by their environment. And we still sometimes need this response even in our somewhat more civilized modern times. Not only in more extreme situations when we are faced with the threat of violence and the like, but as an occasional counterbalance even in our regular social interactions. In other words, it is a normal and healthy emotion like any other: allowed to flow, it will seek its natural expression within appropriate limits and/or spontaneously turn into something else eventually.

 

Problems only arise as a rule when we allow the judgemental mind to impede the flow of our emotions. Anger stored in our chakras (besides in muladhara especially in manipura or the solar plexus) for too long can get the better of us at the slightest provocation, temporarily delude our mind and turn us into a raging bull. Or it can lead to a chronic condition in which we are seeing our world through a filter created by frustration and resentment.

 

Much better not to impede any of our emotions. We should acknowledge their existence, allow ourselves to feel and naturally express them and move on from there. This will help us keep our chakras well balanced. :)

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1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

I wonder how the Pharisees would view your statement? 

 

 

And the reality is.. greed, lust for power, etc do exist. Everyone is not going to work on themselves towards spiritual ends. This is life, and, as I understand it presently, part of what @Aetherous was pointing towards.

 

 

Can you define what you mean with the word clarity?

 

The Pharisees? They sold prayers so I doubt they would agree with me.

 

Your right not everyone will but again work on what you can and that is you.

 

The manifestation of the Primordial State in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment. 
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

 

Edit: I am not sure why it is copying in green..

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

 

 

I don't think this is correct at all, did you ever read what those men did ?  People read but don't read.
Life is not so simple or mindless or easy, effort has to be made to reach higher levels not easy mantras.

 

 

 

I think you are confusing them and what people have done in their names.

 

I would agree the path is not easy and takes effort until it is a being.

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2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

The Pharisees? They sold prayers so I doubt they would agree with me.

 

Let's try again:

 

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

That is the path, look what Jesus did, the Buddha did.

 

It is not pointing out the wrong in others. Passing laws, taking things from others, condemning others for their views and beliefs.

 

This passage from the NIV highlights the reason I mentioned the Pharisees in response to your assertions:

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NIV

Edited by ilumairen
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2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:
Spoiler

 

The manifestation of the Primordial State in all its aspects,

its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment. 
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

 

 

Edit: I am not sure why it is copying in green..

 

Thank you for this definition, and I kinda like the green. 

 

Edited by ilumairen
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13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Let's try again:

 

 

This passage from the NIV highlights the reason I mentioned the Pharisees in response to your assertions:

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NIV

 

Yes, it was much in line with what I was thinking.

 

39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so. As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

 

With regard to condemning others, this verse comes to mind.

 

Matthew 7 : 3 : Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thy own eye?

Edited by Jonesboy

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