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How do folks here deal with frustration, anger, and rage? How can we go on in this world so filled with injustice?

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5 minutes ago, Zhachev said:

How do folks here deal with frustration, anger, and rage? How can we go on in this world so filled with injustice?

 

Mankind is sick, and the sickness is deep and old.
If you are brave and wise then you will try to heal yourself, which can be a long journey where you have to learn many things, avoid many traps and many low teachers.

Find good teachers, stay close, work hard, demand results, get results.

Through the media we are fed many lies and hopelessness division hatred and fear.
But the truth is one and will lead you to salvation.
Begin today.

Anger is often caused by deeper wounds, of fear, lack of competence, lack of courage.
Frustration often caused by lack of experience, lack of honesty, lack of listening.

Fear often caused by incorrect vision of the world conditioned to you from society.

Edited by rideforever

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There's are millions (billions?) of good things going on in the world but they're mundane, mothers love, good meals, fellowship, clean air, getting the job done, every day stuff, so they're over looked.  There's also a fair amount of miraculous things that go on daily.  There's also much crap, but its a very big world. 

 

The truth is there's been amazing progress on disease, crime, pollution but they don't make the news.  Instead if it bleeds it leads and our views become darkened.  The news tends to be a distillation of all the worst things going on.  Partisan news and social media make things seem even worse.  A constant diet of such distillates leads to rage and impotence.  So.. keep balanced and maybe take media breaks every now and then.  (see Goodnewsnetwork.org get a daily email of good things going on)

 

Doing something for others helps too.  A charity, a neighbor.. someone in need, help them.  Have a cause or two.  Our job isn't to change the whole world, but we can make it a little better, a kind words and gestures.. giving and sharing.  We can do that. 

 

 

 

 

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The world of slaves has got many ways to teach you not to be angry.
Then they can steal from you more easily.
 

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18 minutes ago, rideforever said:

The world of slaves has got many ways to teach you not to be angry.
Then they can steal from you more easily.
 

People have to work for a living, that doesn't make them slaves**. 

And we pay taxes that go for myriad things,

some good, some bad, some wasteful, that doesn't make us complacent.

 

 

**matter of fact thats an insult to people trapped in real slavery.  who don't get paid, don't have freedom, are used and abused and treated inhumanly. if you consider yourself a slave, great. come to my house I'll work you 16 hours a day, give your gruel, even $5 then sell you when I get tired of you.  That way you can see what a slave is.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Mankind is sick, and the sickness is deep and old.
 

 

36 minutes ago, rideforever said:

The world of slaves has got many ways to teach you not to be angry.
Then they can steal from you more easily.
 

 

Perhaps.  I`m sure that you could present a great deal of evidence to show that what you say is true.  Of course one could also find abundant reasons to see humanity in a more positive light.  It`s up to each of us to choose our perspective.  Personally, I want to be happy.  If I took the dim view of humanity that you appear to espouse, I wouldn`t be happy.  That`s why I lean towards appreciating the good side of people (while keeping one eye open to the fact that not all is roses).

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Humans are cuddly meerkats !!!
They want nothing more than to be given a little burrow and having feeding time twice a day.
Then they lie with a full belly and forget about everything, maybe get lucky.

 

Strange thing is, on this chaotic planet, some time ago, a few of them had a strange inspiration to do something else.

Not many though.

 

 

mmmm.jpg

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3 hours ago, Zhachev said:

How do folks here deal with frustration, anger, and rage? How can we go on in this world so filled with injustice?

 

The outer world we see is a reflection of the inner.  If we see the world filled with injustice, anger and rage, then we need to start working with our inner emotions and our own stored and repressed habit energy.  Slowly release them by following practices like 'The Presence Process'.

 

As our inner world clears, the outer slowly starts to look beautiful and we start to see that everything is good as they are.  Everything was always good and will always be good.  It is our own inner agitations that paint such picture of the external world.

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Btw, there is nothing called righteous anger & rage in my views.  Anger and rage are always destructive and unrighteous.  But, we should never suppress such emotions nor take it out on others.  By separating the stories the mind creates over such emotions, when we just observe and be present with the raw emotion itself, they slowly get released or dissolved.  This is what practices like the 'The Presence Process by Micheal Brown' teaches.

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2 hours ago, s1va said:

Btw, there is nothing called righteous anger & rage in my views.  Anger and rage are always destructive and unrighteous.  But, we should never suppress such emotions nor take it out on others.  By separating the stories the mind creates over such emotions, when we just observe and be present with the raw emotion itself, they slowly get released or dissolved.  This is what practices like the 'The Presence Process by Micheal Brown' teaches.

I see that correct 99% of the time.  But there are times that call for righteous anger and outrage, but if one makes a steady diet of it, feels it most of the time and they're not in a (kinda) war zone, then its them, not the world. 

 

Thing is angry outrage is addictive.  We'll go out of our way to watch things of dubious nature that will trigger it in ourselves.  It's warming with a heap of "we're superior to them" sprinkled on top.   We've grown up watching macho fantasies where explosive anger works out perfectly and the hero's tied everything up in an hour.  Real life is littered with nasty unanticipated consequences and villains are as likely or more likely to be fueled by the same righteous anger. 

 

So.. be real careful feeding anger.  Better to use it as a sign to work out, or do some charity work. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I see that correct 99% of the time.  But there are times that call for righteous anger and outrage, but if one makes a steady diet of it, feels it most of the time and they're not in a (kinda) war zone, then its them, not the world. 

 

I understand!  That is why stated with the qualification 'in my views'.  Each one of us sees things a little differently and this is fine :)

 

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Having an opinion or attitude towards anger is disembodied.

If you are angry just admit it, and don't resist it.

So what does it mean in fact ?
That you need to set boundaries, or get off your ass .... then do so.

Does it mean you have to fight or kill .... then do so.

Does it mean you have a wound that you need to fix ... then do so.

 

All these opinions and attitudes that people have about anger are simply masturbation and disembodiment.

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:26 PM, s1va said:

The outer world we see is a reflection of the inner.  If we see the world filled with injustice, anger and rage, then we need to start working with our inner emotions and our own stored and repressed habit energy.

 

I think this sounds nice, but does it change the actual problems in the world? Are mothers and their children no longer starving to death, because you have inner peace? Are kids no longer being ritually sexually abused, their minds fragmented and lives ruined? Are serial killers like Ted Bundy no longer real?

If we stop considering problems as our concern, and exist in the bliss of ignorance, haven't we become a certain kind of monster rather than spiritually developed? Is our self gratification and elation really more important than these problems which others face?

...

As for the question of whether righteous anger is good, or if we should get rid of it... I don't have any answer. I understand if someone knows of these problems in the world, and is moved (even by anger) to help. Does anger damage us to some extent - I think yes. But aren't others worth it?

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1 minute ago, Aetherous said:

I think this sounds nice, but does it change the actual problems in the world? Are mothers and their children no longer starving to death, because you have inner peace?

 

Is the world, children, mother etc., separate from us?  I am not separate from any of those.  This is not some lofty notion but a realization.  It can be frustrating at times to hear this, but this is the truth.  All of us will come to see this eventually.  But, at times we do get caught up with these issues when we are in the journey.  As clarity increases we start to see things differently.

 

The world of multitudes is complex with joy, pleasure, birth, celebration, compassion, starvation, disasters, death, violence etc.  No one is proposing to not do any action and sit idle.  We act as needed to alleviate issues in the present moment as they arise.  But the stories we tell and the picture we create of a happy and joyous world or a terrible world of suffering are all just perceptions of the mind.  These perceptions of mind with the pictures it paints takes us away from living in the present moment, and binds us with the stories the mind creates.

 

Turning inward and seeing this is the answer to all suffering individual or worldly.  Bliss is not ignorance but our true underlying nature.  Best wishes 🙂.

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It may be the answer to all suffering.
But what if there was no suffering, suffering is just an attitude developed by miserable people.

Who says there is suffering ?

 

Who are we to tell the world that it's many aspects are just illusory.
What arrogance.

 

These attitudes are highly arrogant and have no respect for existence.
They seek to judge our lives as being meaningless suffering and escape.
Rather than living as existence has instructed us.

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1 hour ago, s1va said:

Is the world, children, mother etc., separate from us?  I am not separate from any of those.

 

We're interrelated, connected, yet distinct as individuals. This means it's all the more important to take care of these others, as what affects them ends up affecting us in some way, and vice versa. It's untrue that being inseparable means we're indistinct - ie, that the mother isn't a mother but is you, or that you aren't you but are the mother.

 

1 hour ago, s1va said:

But, at times we do get caught up with these issues when we are in the journey.  As clarity increases we start to see things differently.

 

Honestly, this isn't true. You claim to have this realization and see the world differently, but despite what you think your realization is (none of my post is meant to be offensive toward you, but is instead meant to provoke a response of greater integrity), there are still serial killers, starving people, abused children. These still exist in your world.

How can it be said to be "clarity" to consider the problems of the world something that one gets "caught up" with? That's honestly more like apathy than a genuine positive state of attainment, or philosophy. Clarity would understand the problems of others, have no issue dealing with them, and not be preoccupied getting sedated with inner bliss.
 

1 hour ago, s1va said:

The world of multitudes is complex with joy, pleasure, birth, celebration, compassion, starvation, disasters, death, violence etc.  No one is proposing to not do any action and sit idle.  We act as needed to alleviate issues in the present moment as they arise.

 

What about acting as needed for future moments, or to fix something that happened in the past? Those are off limits; why?

Are not issues continually arising in our world due to the negligence of many, including ourselves? It's only important when it enters our individual minuscule awareness, despite us being interrelated with all things (even outside of our small individual view)?

What's with the aversion to the suffering of others, and calling it "the world of multitudes"? Is this not also another dualistic concept (duality vs nonduality), and therefore equally as fraudulent, in principle?

 

1 hour ago, s1va said:

But the stories we tell and the picture we create of a happy and joyous world or a terrible world of suffering are all just perceptions of the mind.  These perceptions of mind with the pictures it paints takes us away from living in the present moment, and binds us with the stories the mind creates.

 

I understand some people think this kind of philosophy helps them with meditation, and they think it will lead to enlightenment. On the other hand, it can be viewed as thoughtless apathy - and that definitely doesn't help us in our attainment.

 

Outside of our minds, the world has some terrible things taking place. In reality.

Should we be painting pictures of happy joyous worlds to numb ourselves to reality? I don't think that's clarity.

Is being aware of actual problems in the real world, outside of our minds, something which causes a terrible world of suffering in our minds? I don't think so - that is what's actually happening.

 

1 hour ago, s1va said:

Turning inward and seeing this is the answer to all suffering individual or worldly.  Bliss is not ignorance but our true underlying nature.

 

So why aren't all of the problems fixed yet, if you've already accomplished your goal? Apparently realizing bliss as our true nature doesn't solve the world's problems...therefore, we must respond.

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13 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

We're interrelated, connected, yet distinct as individuals. This means it's all the more important to take care of these others, as what affects them ends up affecting us in some way, and vice versa. It's untrue that being inseparable means we're indistinct - ie, that the mother isn't a mother but is you, or that you aren't you but are the mother.

 

 

Honestly, this isn't true. You claim to have this realization and see the world differently, but despite what you think your realization is (none of my post is meant to be offensive toward you, but is instead meant to provoke a response of greater integrity), there are still serial killers, starving people, abused children. These still exist in your world.

How can it be said to be "clarity" to consider the problems of the world something that one gets "caught up" with? That's honestly more like apathy than a genuine positive state of attainment, or philosophy. Clarity would understand the problems of others, have no issue dealing with them, and not be preoccupied getting sedated with inner bliss.
 

 

What about acting as needed for future moments, or to fix something that happened in the past? Those are off limits; why?

Are not issues continually arising in our world due to the negligence of many, including ourselves? It's only important when it enters our individual minuscule awareness, despite us being interrelated with all things (even outside of our small individual view)?

What's with the aversion to the suffering of others, and calling it "the world of multitudes"? Is this not also another dualistic concept (duality vs nonduality), and therefore equally as fraudulent, in principle?

 

 

I understand some people think this kind of philosophy helps them with meditation, and they think it will lead to enlightenment. On the other hand, it can be viewed as thoughtless apathy - and that definitely doesn't help us in our attainment.

 

Outside of our minds, the world has some terrible things taking place. In reality.

Should we be painting pictures of happy joyous worlds to numb ourselves to reality? I don't think that's clarity.

Is being aware of actual problems in the real world, outside of our minds, something which causes a terrible world of suffering in our minds? I don't think so - that is what's actually happening.

 

 

So why aren't all of the problems fixed yet, if you've already accomplished your goal? Apparently realizing bliss as our true nature doesn't solve the world's problems...therefore, we must respond.

 

Thanks for taking the time to make this lengthy and sincere post in response to my comments.  I know you mean no offense to me.  I have raised some of theese same questions in the past, so I can understand.  I am tied up with some work right now.  It may be a while, but I will respond to your questions.

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17 hours ago, Aetherous said:

We're interrelated, connected, yet distinct as individuals. This means it's all the more important to take care of these others, as what affects them ends up affecting us in some way, and vice versa. It's untrue that being inseparable means we're indistinct - ie, that the mother isn't a mother but is you, or that you aren't you but are the mother.

 

The non-dualists including some in our forum will entirely oppose what you have described above.  Luckily, I don't hold such views.  I see the world with having both non-dual (transcendent) and dual (immanent) aspects at the same time.  Both are valid from different perspectives.

 

Yes, the distinction of individual is true from one perspective.  The Buddhists use terms such as relative truth and absolute truth.  For practical purposes we essentially live in the relative truth as individuals.  Otherwise, you and I can't have this dialogue right now.

 

Agree that what affects the parts affect the whole also.  I never said I was not affected or I did not care about the happenings of the world, did I?  Much of your post is based on such assumptions.  

 

So far with what you stated, we are good and I can agree with your assessment of one truth yet distinct individuals.  But, I  will explain that this does not justify righteous anger or rage, or has nothing do with that.

 

17 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Honestly, this isn't true. You claim to have this realization and see the world differently, but despite what you think your realization is (none of my post is meant to be offensive toward you, but is instead meant to provoke a response of greater integrity), there are still serial killers, starving people, abused children. These still exist in your world.

How can it be said to be "clarity" to consider the problems of the world something that one gets "caught up" with? That's honestly more like apathy than a genuine positive state of attainment, or philosophy. Clarity would understand the problems of others, have no issue dealing with them, and not be preoccupied getting sedated with inner bliss.

 

Now, with this part, I take issues with certain things you said.  You can only be sure about your reality or realization and not what others have realized or what is true for them.  This holds true for all of us.  

 

Yes, there are serial killers, starvation, violence, abused children, etc.  Did I ever deny the reality of any of this?  Did I ever say since everything is part of me, I am not going to care and do nothing and sit in my bliss?  You seem to be jumping into lot of conclusions based on your assumptions which are not true in this case.

 

In my view, we have to aware of the world that we interact with and strive to be compassionate, giving and helpful to others in all our interactions.  Without compassion, sharing and generous giving to others, no realization is worthy of anything.  This is exactly the reason why I get into debates with non-dualists in this site who argue that the world is just a dream like illusion and once we realize all problems are solved -- for everyone universally.  Which implies no need for compassion towards others, since there are no others in their view.

 

I do not hold such views.  Those who still perceive themselves entirely only as separate individual or think they are just the local body and mind and live only in duality (with no realization of ultimate reality) will have attachments and desires, will perceive and feel suffering.  This is what I described as getting caught up with mind stuff.  There is no apathy in this and it may be just be your assumption once again.  Buddha's and Bodhisattvas understand that those still caught up only in duality or mind stuff do perceive terrible sufferings, and this is why they serve in the world with compassion and dedication. To help others reach the state they attained where there is no suffering.  

 

I am still on the journey and cannot claim a full realization like the state of a Buddha.  But I have traveled some distance, had some realizations, openings, glimpses and divine guidance to be in a state similar to Rigpa, where I just reside and go with the flow many times.  It is not my permanent nature yet.  When a person is in this state, there is no suffering.

 

That does not mean bliss is sedation and means no care for the outer world.  I am talking about a state is bliss like rigpa where we retain the consciousness and act in the world outside.  I have clearly explained I not only care very much about others, helping and compassion, but there is no point to even exist without such compassion towards others.

 

Then where do we disagree?  You seem to be mixing up bliss, realization non-dual and most importantly my positive views and portrayal of the world, as apathy, not caring, not understanding the problems of others, sedated, etc.  We will see more about that shortly.

 

17 hours ago, Aetherous said:

What about acting as needed for future moments, or to fix something that happened in the past? Those are off limits; why?

Are not issues continually arising in our world due to the negligence of many, including ourselves? It's only important when it enters our individual minuscule awareness, despite us being interrelated with all things (even outside of our small individual view)?

What's with the aversion to the suffering of others, and calling it "the world of multitudes"? Is this not also another dualistic concept (duality vs nonduality), and therefore equally as fraudulent, in principle?

 

When did I say anything about not acting? When did I deny or say issues don't arise all the time (in the mind)?  When did I say none of them is a problem?  When was I averse to others suffering?  Did I say anything to that affect?

 

You seem to be jumping into a whole lot of conclusions based entirely on your assumptions.  

 

I said everything is good with the world all the time.  This can be a person's positive perception of the world.  I chose to see the world this way, you are free to see it as you see fit. There is good and bad, kind and unkind, pleasures and suffering, tragedies and fortunate incidents, etc etc. These are all part of the world.  It is all subject to cause and effect of our own makings.  Our own actions ultimately result in what we undergo.  Altogether, I see (and know this as true with the realizations I have had) all of this as good, or as it should be.  Let me repeat, Everything is good my friend!  This does not mean I don't care about you or the rest of the world.  I do care very much but strive to act without attachments and desires.

 

18 hours ago, Aetherous said:

I understand some people think this kind of philosophy helps them with meditation, and they think it will lead to enlightenment. On the other hand, it can be viewed as thoughtless apathy - and that definitely doesn't help us in our attainment.

 

Outside of our minds, the world has some terrible things taking place. In reality.

Should we be painting pictures of happy joyous worlds to numb ourselves to reality? I don't think that's clarity.

Is being aware of actual problems in the real world, outside of our minds, something which causes a terrible world of suffering in our minds? I don't think so - that is what's actually happening.

 

I have addressed most of this already in this post.  It's not philosophy but realization and my experience for the most part.  It's not about painting a happy picture, but a positive picture, that can give hope and make us more efficient to help others.

 

What does negativity and negative views achieve?  Let me reiterate, anger when expressed towards others is never helpful and rage is destructive.  I don't have to have anger or rage or to hold a bleak view of the world, inorder to notice and help others with suffering.  If someone does not hold such views, it doesn't mean apathy or they don't care.  Increased clarity actually helps us to notice and find the exact cause of other's suffering many times and help alleviate it directly.

 

In TTC it states, 'A great tailor cuts very little'.  To me this means, fully realized masters such as Lao Tzu or Buddha can perform small acts, which can have great impact and help alleviate the suffering of many in this world.  That is due to the state of their highest clarity and bliss, they are able to see through things which others can't and be able to help.

 

18 hours ago, Aetherous said:

So why aren't all of the problems fixed yet, if you've already accomplished your goal? Apparently realizing bliss as our true nature doesn't solve the world's problems...therefore, we must respond.

 

As long as the world or existence remains, there will be problems.  That does not indicate I have not achieved or accomplished my goals or someone else doesn't.  When Buddha or Jesus realized, did all the problems that you describe go away?

 

We tend to mix up lot of things and arrive to certain conclusions.  Problems are the creation of our own mind at a larger level with other factors such as cause and effect.  Each individual has to solve it for themselves at the individual level by turning inwards and understanding the source of all suffering.  

 

Sometimes when we have strong emotions with a certain topic, we may not see everything clearly at that time, may assume things and come to certain conclusions.  It is best to give it some time and approach that topic again.  Best wishes once again :).

 

 

 

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Two things that remain hidden and are the cause of much confusion are :

1. Who exactly is it that gets enlightened, who meditates, who takes rebirth, who declares enlightenment ?

2. The process of changing into something new, rather than a debate about "what it is", a debate about "what it can be". 

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1 hour ago, s1va said:

When Buddha or Jesus realized, did all the problems that you describe go away?

 

Definitely not. Therein lies the issue central to this thread: how can we deal with such an unjust and disturbed world? Obviously, attaining realization doesn't solve the real problems.

I think if you go back and reread our exchanges again, you'll see that I'm not making any assumptions, but am trying to hone our spiritual philosophy into something more honest and accurate.

Edited by Aetherous
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8 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Definitely not. Therein lies the issue central to this thread: how can we deal with such an unjust and disturbed world? Obviously, attaining realization doesn't solve the real problems.

I think if you go back and reread our exchanges again, you'll see that I'm not making any assumptions, but am trying to hone our spiritual philosophy into something more honest and accurate.

 

I have answered your questions and explained my views.  What you mentioned about apathy, not caring or indifference the problems of the world, sedated in bliss, etc have no factual basis with respect to realization and are assumptions as far as I am concerned.  If you don't agree, that's fine.  We are all entitled to our views of the world based on our experiences.  Such views are also not static, they change and refine as we evolve.

 

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47 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Two things that remain hidden and are the cause of much confusion are :

1. Who exactly is it that gets enlightened, who meditates, who takes rebirth, who declares enlightenment ?

2. The process of changing into something new, rather than a debate about "what it is", a debate about "what it can be". 

 

You might want to check out the Abhinavagupta's works in Kashmir Shaivism.  In my opinion they have a model that explains things in some detail and with clarity that is better than many others that I have come across.  But, one needs to be patient and start with some simple texts until they get familiar with all the terms and definitions used in this tradition.  I am writing a post about the 36 tattvas (principles) in KS in my PPD -- under the Tantra subsection -- this explains how we descended from the divine and unbounded state into our own individual and limited state of septate sentient beings.  If you are interested check it out.  It is better to take the top down approach at times when we ask such questions of who, what and why.

 

Instead of starting off with the septate individual sentient bring, who is nothing but the creation of the habit energies and mental formations of the mind, or in other words the divine veiled and feels separated due to the effects of the maya tattva (principle).  We can approach it the other way around.  Five acts of the divine who is Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism (there is a thread about this also in my PPD), the act of veiling which conceals our true nature, and then later the act of Anugraha or divine grace that leads to liberation or back to our true nature.

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46 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Definitely not. Therein lies the issue central to this thread: how can we deal with such an unjust and disturbed world? Obviously, attaining realization doesn't solve the real problems.
 

 

I think you will find the more you change that others around you will change as well.

 

As Siva has been saying. Start with yourself before worrying about changing others.

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