The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep

[Still_Waters]

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I think you raise a good point.  Any active dreaming (whether lucid or not), is not Turiya.  But, I would also agree that it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep, and it is very much like Spotless described earlier... laying in bed, fully aware at various layers of consciousness... and then your wife hits you and tells you stop snoring...  

Perfect. It is good to hear you say that "it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep". Thank you.

[Still_Waters]

In the book, "The Message of Our Time" (written by Pir Vilayat Khan about the life of his father, the Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan), there is an entire chapter on "Die Before Death". Since what is written there has already been described in sufficient detail both in my posts and in those of others here relevant to conscious sleep, it should suffice to quote this one passage from the book. (Incidentally, I studied under Pir Vilayat Khan for two years and was able to discuss such subjects with him personally.)

 

"If one is able to retain the continuity of consciousness over the border from the physical world to the dream and vice versa, one will practice dying before death. This is taught by the Sufis as a preparation for death rather like the Bardo Thodol (the Tibetan Book of the Dead) and the Egyptian Book of the Dead and other similar works. In fact, this is precisely what meditation is."

 

It is good to see Jeff write that "it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep". Hopefully, OP and the cadre  who follow him and who "love" everything he writes here will similarly conclude that "the Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" is most assuredly NOT a myth at all but is in fact a very common practice among those who truly seek to know themselves. It baffles me that one who does not fully understand the three basic states of man (deep sleep, dream, waking) through direct observation and experience can even venture to claim knowledge of that which lies beyond other than to quote others. While second-hand information is most definitely useful as it spurs one on to investigate the Truth, it is clearly no substitute for actually validating the information and thus knowing for one's self through direct experience.

 

It seems best at this point to proceed deeper beyond the basics and into the practice itself with those here who apparently do understand the process and the practice. "Conscious sleep" is obviously a preliminary practice that facilitates knowing one's self through the emergence of both conscious and unconscious tendencies during the dream formation process so that those conditioned tendencies/urges can be weeded out and one can become firmly established in that which lies beyond thoughts and images. Any comments on this subject would be most welcome.

 

Continuing with "The Message of Our Time" since I'm on that subject now, legitimate questions regarding the process of validation are raised as one would expect.

 

"But what proof do I have that the phantasmagoria of dreams is as real as physical matter? Dreams are elusive and evanescent like cloud formations, whereas the house is still there when I wake up in the morning. Actually, you can return to that dream house night after night. No doubt the most convincing answer is to be found in astral travel, because one can check whether the astral traveler saw the furniture in the place you changed it to in order to test him (although one could account for that by telepathy). But the astral traveler has a very definite experience of displacing himself in space, including sometimes a bird's eye view of the landscape."

 

Although I have had sporadic verifiable experiences in "remote viewing" (a term that is widely used in scientific circles and one which I personally prefer to astral travel), I fully acknowledge that I cannot do it consciously at will. I readily concede that the mental aspects of the Cosmic Mind have commanded more of my attention than the physical. It should come as no surprise to many here that I attend a meditation group with senior members of the Edgar Cayce organization in order to glean whatever I can through unpublished documents regarding Cayce's experiences with the Akashic Records (the Book of Life, or whatever other terms one wishes to associate with the Cosmic Mind). Cayce, as everyone probably knows, is one of the most documented psychics of our time despite some of his predictions of the future being somewhat off. (One learns not to predict the dynamically unfolding "future", as my spiritual mentor advised me many years ago.)

 

I've noticed that, once one perfects the practice of conscious sleep to at least some degree, the mind becomes firmly established in complete and utter silence for longer and longer periods of time. One can feel one's self soaring above the self-limiting little separatist gestalt commonly called the ego and into the metaphorical sky of consciousness. At first, one tries to navigate and explore. However, eventually, one realizes that one should just abide in that stillness and peace with no expectations for "results" until what is important is spontaneously revealed. In a future post, I may give a verifiable example of my first "remote mental activity" experience which stirred a skeptical me into taking action that ultimately saved a young man's life. It is my understanding now that whatever is important to be revealed --- whether it requires action or not --- will be revealed in the proper moment. Can I do this consciously? No. Does it happen? Yes. When it happens and action is required, the validity of the "remote mental activity" (for lack of better words) becomes evident. It is my understanding that this faculty is inherent in all who have a pure heart in that particular moment. Conscious sleep is therefore the gateway to greater possibilities that can be validated. This is in complete accordance with the "Thy Will Be Done" Principle from the Christian Lord's Prayer, as one connects with the "higher power" and acts unerringly in the best interests of the Totality with no ulterior motives and no expectation of a return. (Incidentally, as a side note to the Kashmir Shaivism adherents here, it would appear that this is actually very consistent with at least one aspect of that sect. "The Shaiva Siddhanta goal of becoming an ontologically distinct Shiva (through Shiva's grace) was replaced by recognizing oneself as Shiva who, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is the entirety of the universe ." In the manner described, one is thus inspired to act in the best interests of the greater Self which, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is indeed the entirety of the universe whether we call it Shiva or otherwise.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism

 

Any comments on this subject would be most welcome.

 

P.S. I just ordered and received another book, "Meditation and the Bible" by Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. I have read two of his books and his depth is incredible. He points out that there are only a limited number of ways to approach the mind in meditation, and that all traditions utilize virtually the same gamut of methodologies albeit with different symbologies. I've also read the book "Kabbalah" written by his disciple, Perle Epstein, who is a great-great----great descendant of the legendary Baal Shem Tov. In that book, the writings and sayings of great Kabbalists are presented with obvious parallels to the eastern traditions that we discuss on this site. (As I've said many times in the past, the major traditions at their deepest levels all seem to point in the same direction.) Rabbi Kaplan's book is presented as a "radical interpretation of the Bible" which focuses to a large extent on previously unpublished writings related to the elevated states of consciousness exhibited by the prophets. (Jeremias is actually my favorite in this respect as his well-documented prophecies were clearly fulfilled at the time of the Destruction of the First Temple and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity). Rabbi Kaplan's son still lives in Brooklyn and, after reading this latest book, I may try to get an audience with him to learn more about what he knows that was left unsaid.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Still_Waters

[Still_Waters]

12 hours ago, steve said:

 

Joe sounds like a real peach!

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

I've been on this site for a while and have gone through quite a few ups and downs regarding engagement and disengagement.

At this point, I delete the majority of my posts before ever publishing them and ignore most of the misinformation I come across.

 

I got involved with this thread for the same reason as you and soon realized I'd said enough.

I have little interest in theory and intellectual understanding so debate doesn't turn me on.

It's not my place to try and convince anyone of anything, just my option to make an offering if conditions seem favorable. 

 

If someone finds something of value in what I say, wonderful!

If someone finds what I say to be utter horse-shit, wonderful!

It's just words and concepts and, at the end of the day, I'd be better off spending more time on the cushion and with my family.

 

It's really nice to connect with you and I hope you stick around. 

With warmth and blessings on this beautiful Losar!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree completely with what you wrote. Like yourself, "I have little interest in theory and intellectual understanding so debate doesn't turn me on. It's not my place to try and convince anyone of anything, just my option to make an offering if conditions seem favorable. " However, when some one denigrates a common practice by calling it a "myth", I respond very strongly as you have seen lest such people shake the foundations of those who are earnestly engaged in the practice. That's where I draw the line and will continue to draw the line there despite the "warnings" of that clique. Like Joe Miller and my own spiritual mentor, I can become quite ornery when that line is crossed but not quite as ornery as the consummate Joe himself. LOL

 

Having said that, I hope that you do get the book about Joe Miller as he is probably the most outrageous, unorthodox mystic I've ever encountered. The stories in the book are absolutely hilarious and irreverently reverent in a most unique way. Joe was in vaudeville and was at heart an entertainer .. but what an entertainer ! He combined depth with humor and behaviors that would readily shake people out of their intellectualism.

 

Joe enjoyed bursting into one of his wife's "Songs To Live By" from time to time.

 

"Ignore the opinions of others.

Let the rumors of your foolishness spread far and wide.

None if it matters in the least.

Busy yourself with the burning of all of the furniture

    in the house of the mind.

When the job is finished, dynamite the foundations

    and bulldoze the lot."

 

"Then, you'll be ready to meditate," he would remark afterward.

 

In "conscious sleep", when practiced seriously and effectively, one burns all the furniture in the house of the mind and then dynamites the foundations and bulldozes the lot. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Still_Waters

[dwai]

I think we've been skirting around Turiya on this thread. I know OP isn't keen to encourage discussions on Turiya, but seems like that boat has sailed long ago with many discussions spiraling around the topic. So here goes -- essentially, in my experience and humble opinion, Turiya is precisely that awareness which continues unbroken through the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. I would venture to say, that if someone is consistently aware through the three states, they have realized their true nature. That's not to say that it is the end-all, be-all of realization, but it is certainly the gate between delusion and reality. 

 

There were some references to Turiyatita (Beyond Turiya). That is just another aspect of Turiya itself. There is no "beyond the beyond" really. What the quote below means to me is that one who knows himself as Turiya is the knower of Turiya, so is Turiyatita (using the methodology of Drik-Drshya Viveka). A bit of Advaita Vedanta here --

Quote

In his Mandukya Karika, Sri Gaudapada gives us a handy way of looking at turIya and the three states and which summarizes what is said above. Each may be characterized as follows: 

turIya (Atman): non-apprehension of duality; 
praj~nA (deep sleep): non-apprehension of Reality and of duality; 
taijasa (dream state): non-apprehension of and misapprehension of Reality; 
vishva (waking state): non-apprehension of and misapprehension of Reality. 

As far as I know, turyatita is not referred to in the major Upanishads. However, some of the minor Upanishads refer to five states: vishva, taijasa, praj~nA, turIya and turyatita. For example: 

II.4. There are five AvasthA-s (states): jAgrat (waking), svapna (dreaming), suShupti (dreamless sleeping), the turIya (fourth) and turyatita (that beyond the fourth)... 

II.5. The Yogin is one that has realised Brahman that is all-full beyond turIya. 
(from "Mandala Brahmana Upanishad", Translated by K. Narayanasvami Aiyar) 

and 

5. There is nothing other than Brahman of the five padas (i.e. the turyatita)… 
(from "Para-Brahma Upanishad", Translated by Prof. A. A. Ramanathan) 

Sri Ramana Maharshi also refers to turyatita in a few places, though he normally explains the traditional view. The way I understand this is that the reference to turyatita has more to do with meditation practice than with the traditional view of metaphysics. Certain types of samAdhi (e.g. kevala nirvikalpa) don't really fit easily into the 3 states. It seems kevala nirvikalpa samAdhi certainly isn't the 'waking' or 'dream' state, and it also doesn't quite equate with 'deep sleep' for the latter is characterized by 'non-apprehension' of Reality. Nor does it quite equate with direct realization of Atman and therefore liberation, as it is a temporary state. 

Another reason for five states, rather than four, is due to the stage of establishing oneself in the Witness State and recognizing that 'I am' is not any of the other three states. Perhaps here, the term 'turIya' is used to stand for the fourth state as the Witness State. However, the spiritual aspirant has yet to realize herself as the non-dual Brahman - a fifth 'state' (so called). Hence this latter stage is referred to as turyatita, beyond the fourth (turIya). Sri Ramana says as much when asked, "Why is the Self described both as the fourth state (turIya) and beyond the fourth state (turyatita)?" He replies: 

"turIya means that which is the fourth. The experiencers (jIva-s) of the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep, known as vishva, taijasa and praj~nA, who wander successively in these three states, are not the Self. It is with the object of making this clear, namely that the Self is that which is different from them and which is the witness of these states, that it is called the fourth (turIya). When this is known, the three experiencers disappear and the idea that the Self is a witness, that it is the fourth, also disappears. That is why the Self is described as beyond the fourth (turyatita)." 

(from, "Spiritual Instruction" no. 8.) 

Apart from one or two passages like the above, Sri Ramana generally refers to turIya in the traditional way, as follows: 

D.: What is turiya? 

M.: There are three states only, the waking, dream and sleep. turIya is not a fourth one; it is what underlies these three. But people do not readily understand it. Therefore it is said that this is the fourth state and the only Reality. In fact it is not apart from anything, for it forms the substratum of all happenings; it is the only Truth; it is your very Being. The three states appear as fleeting phenomena on it and then sink into it alone. Therefore they are unreal. 

(Talk 353.)

 

[voidisyinyang]

36 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think we've been skirting around Turiya on this thread. I know OP isn't keen to encourage discussions on Turiya, but seems like that boat has sailed long ago with many discussions spiraling around the topic. So here goes -- essentially, in my experience and humble opinion, Turiya is precisely that awareness which continues unbroken through the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. I would venture to say, that if someone is consistently aware through the three states, they have realized their true nature. That's not to say that it is the end-all, be-all of realization, but it is certainly the gate between delusion and reality. 

 

There were some references to Turiyatita (Beyond Turiya). That is just another aspect of Turiya itself. There is no "beyond the beyond" really. What the quote below means to me is that one who knows himself as Turiya is the knower of Turiya, so is Turiyatita (using the methodology of Drik-Drshya Viveka). A bit of Advaita Vedanta here --

 

nice quotes! Here's some from Taoist Yoga:

 

Quote

For this golden light manifests in front of you while your essential body (fa shen) in the great emptiness gradually comes closer to it. When the light of this body joins and mingles with the golden light (in front of you) you will realise your essential body which will then enter your physical body; the latter will absorb that spiritual body and in three years’ time will be sublimated into pure vitality [yuan qi]. This is the manifestation of positive spirit (yang shen) which will take form when it gathers in one place or will become pure vitality [yuan qi] when it scatters to fill the great emptiness which will be its boundless body.

and

Quote

the wondrous light of (essential) nature which is symbolised by a circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen) ; the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless (wu chi), the Buddha perfect knowledge (yuan ming) and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality [yuan qi].

and

Quote

Body, Essential (fa shen)

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I think we've been skirting around Turiya on this thread. I know OP isn't keen to encourage discussions on Turiya, but seems like that boat has sailed long ago with many discussions spiraling around the topic. So here goes -- essentially, in my experience and humble opinion, Turiya is precisely that awareness which continues unbroken through the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. I would venture to say, that if someone is consistently aware through the three states, they have realized their true nature. That's not to say that it is the end-all, be-all of realization, but it is certainly the gate between delusion and reality. 

 

There were some references to Turiyatita (Beyond Turiya). That is just another aspect of Turiya itself. There is no "beyond the beyond" really. What the quote below means to me is that one who knows himself as Turiya is the knower of Turiya, so is Turiyatita (using the methodology of Drik-Drshya Viveka). A bit of Advaita Vedanta here --

 

 

So in your view, is something like lucid dreaming the same as Turiya? As the person maintains awareness of them-self in the dream?

 

As this seems to be the fundamental point of the debate to me. Or as you succinctly said, whether there is a "beyond the beyond" or not.

[s1va]

3 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

In the book, "The Message of Our Time" (written by Pir Vilayat Khan about the life of his father, the Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan), there is an entire chapter on "Die Before Death". Since what is written there has already been described in sufficient detail both in my posts and in those of others here relevant to conscious sleep, it should suffice to quote this one passage from the book. (Incidentally, I studied under Pir Vilayat Khan for two years and was able to discuss such subjects with him personally.)

 

"If one is able to retain the continuity of consciousness over the border from the physical world to the dream and vice versa, one will practice dying before death. This is taught by the Sufis as a preparation for death rather like the Bardo Thodol (the Tibetan Book of the Dead) and the Egyptian Book of the Dead and other similar works. In fact, this is precisely what meditation is."

 

It is good to see Jeff write that "it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep". Hopefully, OP and the cadre  who follow him and who "love" everything he writes here will similarly conclude that "the Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" is most assuredly NOT a myth at all but is in fact a very common practice among those who truly seek to know themselves. It baffles me that one who does not fully understand the three basic states of man (deep sleep, dream, waking) through direct observation and experience can even venture to claim knowledge of that which lies beyond other than to quote others. While second-hand information is most definitely useful as it spurs one on to investigate the Truth, it is clearly no substitute for actually validating the information and thus knowing for one's self through direct experience.

 

It seems best at this point to proceed deeper beyond the basics and into the practice itself with those here who apparently do understand the process and the practice. "Conscious sleep" is obviously a preliminary practice that facilitates knowing one's self through the emergence of both conscious and unconscious tendencies during the dream formation process so that those conditioned tendencies/urges can be weeded out and one can become firmly established in that which lies beyond thoughts and images. Any comments on this subject would be most welcome.

 

Continuing with "The Message of Our Time" since I'm on that subject now, legitimate questions regarding the process of validation are raised as one would expect.

 

"But what proof do I have that the phantasmagoria of dreams is as real as physical matter? Dreams are elusive and evanescent like cloud formations, whereas the house is still there when I wake up in the morning. Actually, you can return to that dream house night after night. No doubt the most convincing answer is to be found in astral travel, because one can check whether the astral traveler saw the furniture in the place you changed it to in order to test him (although one could account for that by telepathy). But the astral traveler has a very definite experience of displacing himself in space, including sometimes a bird's eye view of the landscape."

 

Although I have had sporadic verifiable experiences in "remote viewing" (a term that is widely used in scientific circles and one which I personally prefer to astral travel), I fully acknowledge that I cannot do it consciously at will. I readily concede that the mental aspects of the Cosmic Mind have commanded more of my attention than the physical. It should come as no surprise to many here that I attend a meditation group with senior members of the Edgar Cayce organization in order to glean whatever I can through unpublished documents regarding Cayce's experiences with the Akashic Records (the Book of Life, or whatever other terms one wishes to associate with the Cosmic Mind). Cayce, as everyone probably knows, is one of the most documented psychics of our time despite some of his predictions of the future being somewhat off. (One learns not to predict the dynamically unfolding "future", as my spiritual mentor advised me many years ago.)

 

I've noticed that, once one perfects the practice of conscious sleep to at least some degree, the mind becomes firmly established in complete and utter silence for longer and longer periods of time. One can feel one's self soaring above the self-limiting little separatist gestalt commonly called the ego and into the metaphorical sky of consciousness. At first, one tries to navigate and explore. However, eventually, one realizes that one should just abide in that stillness and peace with no expectations for "results" until what is important is spontaneously revealed. In a future post, I may give a verifiable example of my first "remote mental activity" experience which stirred a skeptical me into taking action that ultimately saved a young man's life. It is my understanding now that whatever is important to be revealed --- whether it requires action or not --- will be revealed in the proper moment. Can I do this consciously? No. Does it happen? Yes. When it happens and action is required, the validity of the "remote mental activity" (for lack of better words) becomes evident. It is my understanding that this faculty is inherent in all who have a pure heart in that particular moment. Conscious sleep is therefore the gateway to greater possibilities that can be validated. This is in complete accordance with the "Thy Will Be Done" Principle from the Christian Lord's Prayer, as one connects with the "higher power" and acts unerringly in the best interests of the Totality with no ulterior motives and no expectation of a return. (Incidentally, as a side note to the Kashmir Shaivism adherents here, it would appear that this is actually very consistent with at least one aspect of that sect. "The Shaiva Siddhanta goal of becoming an ontologically distinct Shiva (through Shiva's grace) was replaced by recognizing oneself as Shiva who, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is the entirety of the universe ." In the manner described, one is thus inspired to act in the best interests of the greater Self which, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is indeed the entirety of the universe whether we call it Shiva or otherwise.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism

 

Any comments on this subject would be most welcome.

 

P.S. I just ordered and received another book, "Meditation and the Bible" by Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. I have read two of his books and his depth is incredible. He points out that there are only a limited number of ways to approach the mind in meditation, and that all traditions utilize virtually the same gamut of methodologies albeit with different symbologies. I've also read the book "Kabbalah" written by his disciple, Perle Epstein, who is a great-great----great descendant of the legendary Baal Shem Tov. In that book, the writings and sayings of great Kabbalists are presented with obvious parallels to the eastern traditions that we discuss on this site. (As I've said many times in the past, the major traditions at their deepest levels all seem to point in the same direction.) Rabbi Kaplan's book is presented as a "radical interpretation of the Bible" which focuses to a large extent on previously unpublished writings related to the elevated states of consciousness exhibited by the prophets. (Jeremias is actually my favorite in this respect as his well-documented prophecies were clearly fulfilled at the time of the Destruction of the First Temple and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity). Rabbi Kaplan's son still lives in Brooklyn and, after reading this latest book, I may try to get an audience with him to learn more about what he knows that was left unsaid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No changes in my view!  Conscious awareness in sleep is a myth to me.  Just because some senses are alert in some temporary states with some, it does not prove anything.  The state that transcends as described earlier is something else.

 

I agree it is as simple as everyone's experience through the 3 states.  I am asking everyone to investigate and find out for themselves.  Not to rely on statements like yours (or mine) and decide.

 

This topic might have gone into obscurity if it was left alone.  Thanks to you and some others, who just can't help it, it is reaching to more audience and getting a much broader view than a topic like this typically gathers! In a way I should thank some of you who simply can't let it go and keeping this topic alive and on the top every single day.

 

I hardly check or read the posts anymore.  

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

So in your view, is something like lucid dreaming the same as Turiya? As the person maintains awareness of them-self in the dream?

 

As this seems to be the fundamental point of the debate to me. Or as you succinctly said, whether there is a "beyond the beyond" or not.

No lucid dreaming is not same as Turiya. But it is a step in the right direction. There are two aspects to self realization (in this context) in my experience. 

 

1. Knowing that the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep arise and fall in an unbroken awareness that underlies them.
2. abiding as that awareness, knowing that IS our true nature. When that Abidance happens is when there is unbroken awareness (of being aware) throughout the three states. 

 

This doesn’t require any fancy stuff. It is a very subtle and yet very available recognition. All that is needed is for the mind to become still (which is where all the doings of the spiritual world go - i.e., effort to still the mind )

Edited February 6, 2019 by dwai

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

No lucid dreaming is not same as Turiya. But it is a step in the right direction. There are two aspects to self realization (in this context) in my experience. 

 

1. Knowing that the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep arise and fall in an unbroken awareness that underlies them.
2. abiding as that awareness, knowing that IS our true nature. When that Abidance happens is when there is unbroken awareness (of being aware) throughout the three states. 

 

 

Thanks.  But that does not really answer my question. What do you mean by there is unbroken awareness?  If you have a dream in the first place, doesn't that simply prove that you don't have unbroken awareness, because some dream popped up?  Just like if you mind runs off in some daydream during the waking state.

[Kar3n]

The lack of respect for the OP and the topic in this thread is appalling. There are numerous ad hominems. The next one gets the topic locked for a stint and the member who tosses one out gets a vacation.

[s1va]

3 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

P.S. I just ordered and received another book, "Meditation and the Bible" by Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. I have read two of his books and his depth is incredible. He points out that there are only a limited number of ways to approach the mind in meditation, and that all traditions utilize virtually the same gamut of methodologies albeit with different symbologies. I've also read the book "Kabbalah" written by his disciple, Perle Epstein, who is a great-great----great descendant of the legendary Baal Shem Tov. In that book, the writings and sayings of great Kabbalists are presented with obvious parallels to the eastern traditions that we discuss on this site. (As I've said many times in the past, the major traditions at their deepest levels all seem to point in the same direction.) Rabbi Kaplan's book is presented as a "radical interpretation of the Bible" which focuses to a large extent on previously unpublished writings related to the elevated states of consciousness exhibited by the prophets. (Jeremias is actually my favorite in this respect as his well-documented prophecies were clearly fulfilled at the time of the Destruction of the First Temple and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity). Rabbi Kaplan's son still lives in Brooklyn and, after reading this latest book, I may try to get an audience with him to learn more about what he knows that was left unsaid.

 

All of the above has nothing to do with this topic.  This is just a minor example from your posts in this topic.  I can quote several others, but what is the point!  If you want to tell glorious stories from your past about kumbha mela, or go on and on about the books you read to prove your intellectual prowess to the world, I suggest you do it in your PPD area and not in this thread.  This forum generously gives everyone a platform as PPD, where they can talk about themselves and their practices.  In the 8 pages of this thread, you have written more intellectual stuff and theory than anyone else and yet go on to challenge others about intellectual theory.  Totally ironic and sad!

[s1va]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I think we've been skirting around Turiya on this thread. I know OP isn't keen to encourage discussions on Turiya, but seems like that boat has sailed long ago with many discussions spiraling around the topic. So here goes -- essentially, in my experience and humble opinion, Turiya is precisely that awareness which continues unbroken through the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. I would venture to say, that if someone is consistently aware through the three states, they have realized their true nature. That's not to say that it is the end-all, be-all of realization, but it is certainly the gate between delusion and reality. 

 

There were some references to Turiyatita (Beyond Turiya). That is just another aspect of Turiya itself. There is no "beyond the beyond" really. What the quote below means to me is that one who knows himself as Turiya is the knower of Turiya, so is Turiyatita (using the methodology of Drik-Drshya Viveka). A bit of Advaita Vedanta here --

 

 

You can discuss Turiya if you like.  I was just trying to avoid making this topic entirely about Turiya.  But it is certainly related to the topic and cannot be entirely avoided.  I agree that Turiya is unbroken awareness that continues through all states.  That is exactly my point, therefore it does not equal jagrat = swapna = sushupti, or claim one state continues through the other.  Those 3 states are unique and they still continue, the jagrat consciousness of the waking state does not spread into sleep, but a state of transcendent awareness can pervade or remain consistent through all of the 3.  Turiya seems to continue through them unbroken as you explained.  Your quotes on Turiya also seem to be valid form the AV standpoint.  But, Turiyatita is different in my view based on the teachings of Trika and Kashmir Shaivism.

[Jonesboy]

From the Pratyabhijnahrdayam The Secret of Self- Recognition

 

Turiya, the fourth state of consciousness.

 

When he is in deep sleep,

he has no dreaming or waking consciousness. In every man,

there is a fourth (turiya) state of consciousness also which is

the witness of the other three states. Turiya is a relative term.

It is in relation to the other three states that it is called turiya

or fourth. There is no succession in turiya as there is in the

other three states. It is ever present as the witnessing consciousness

of the three states.

 

Turyatita means transcending the fourth state. lt is

a state beyond the turya. Turya is turiya (fourth) in relation to

the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep; but in turyatita,

the above three states as separate states disappear. Hence when

the three states have disappeared, tarya can no longer be called

turya. It is called turyatita in which the turya or fourth state

has been transcended. It is a state where pure consciousness

is like an ocean without any ruffle whatsoever, and is full of

bliss. It is the consciousness of Siva himself or one who has

reached that stage in which the entire universe appears as his

Self. In turya, manas becomes attenuated; in turyatita it is dissolved

in sakti. When the turya state becomes fully developed

and reaches perfection, it is transformed into turyatita state. In

this state, everything appears to the individual as Siva or Self.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

 

Turiya, the fourth state of consciousness.

 

When he is in deep sleep,

he has no dreaming or waking consciousness. In every man,

there is a fourth (turiya) state of consciousness also which is

the witness of the other three states. Turiya is a relative term.

It is in relation to the other three states that it is called turiya

or fourth. There is no succession in turiya as there is in the

other three states. It is ever present as the witnessing consciousness

of the three states.

 

Turyatita means transcending the fourth state. lt is

a state beyond the turya. Turya is turiya (fourth) in relation to

the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep; but in turyatita,

the above three states as separate states disappear. Hence when

the three states have disappeared, tarya can no longer be called

turya. It is called turyatita in which the turya or fourth state

has been transcended. It is a state where pure consciousness

is like an ocean without any ruffle whatsoever, and is full of

bliss. It is the consciousness of Siva himself or one who has

reached that stage in which the entire universe appears as his

Self. In turya, manas becomes attenuated; in turyatita it is dissolved

in sakti. When the turya state becomes fully developed

and reaches perfection, it is transformed into turyatita state. In

this state, everything appears to the individual as Siva or Self.

 

Good stuff, but please reference.  

[s1va]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Good stuff, but please reference.  

 

 

Tom updated his post to indicate it's from 'Pratyabhijnahrdayam The Secret of Self- Recognition'.

 

I think it may be from the following text.  Tom can confirm. 

 

Edit: Some issue with the link I posted earlier.  Updating it with the following Amazon link.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pratyabhijnahrdayam-Secret-Self-Recognition-Jaideva-Singh/dp/812080323X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549474083&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=pratyabhijnahrdayam&dpPl=1&dpID=51xwMJDVFwL&ref=plSrch

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

58 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks.  But that does not really answer my question. What do you mean by there is unbroken awareness?  If you have a dream in the first place, doesn't that simply prove that you don't have unbroken awareness, because some dream popped up?  Just like if you mind runs off in some daydream during the waking state.

It goes back to what I call "awareness". It is the "light" which makes knowing possible. The "ultimate" reality, so to speak. Having a dream doesn't mean there isn't unbroken awareness, but rather, that the focus is on the story in the dream, so the unbroken awareness seems to be obscured. Similarly, in waking state, when actions happen, it appears to be a departure from this unbroken underlying awareness, but is only an obscuration due to focus on the actions/results etc. Likewise, in deep sleep, when nothing seems to happen, it is just that there are no objects in the awareness (if there were, it would not be deep sleep but dreaming or waking). 

 

The underlying unbroken awareness is never really "broken". It only appears to be so as a result of conditioning -- the mind wants to grasp at objects; and identification with the stories (personality, ego, etc etc). 

 

When one is stabilized in abiding as awareness, there is always a constant - awareness is awareness of being aware (or Self-awareness).

[ilumairen]

On 1/23/2019 at 11:38 AM, s1va said:

Temporarily having awareness at night during sleep for few hours or even few days is certainly possible.  After a yoga nidra practice or when in nirvikalpa samadhi, a person might retain awareness in sleep.  Once again this is not the state of Turiya or awakened sleep.  Turiya seems to be a permanent shift into a new state that completely transcends all the other 3 and there is no going back after reaching this state once.

 

Could you simplify the premise for me?

 

I knew a young woman who slept with her eyes open, and did maintain awareness during sleep, and through my own experience with her I know this went on for years. She would not have made any spiritual claims.. 

 

Soo, is the premise that if one experiences awareness during sleep it isn't this magical Turiya thing? Or is it something more? 

 

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

It goes back to what I call "awareness". It is the "light" which makes knowing possible. The "ultimate" reality, so to speak. Having a dream doesn't mean there isn't unbroken awareness, but rather, that the focus is on the story in the dream, so the unbroken awareness seems to be obscured. Similarly, in waking state, when actions happen, it appears to be a departure from this unbroken underlying awareness, but is only an obscuration due to focus on the actions/results etc. Likewise, in deep sleep, when nothing seems to happen, it is just that there are no objects in the awareness (if there were, it would not be deep sleep but dreaming or waking). 

 

The underlying unbroken awareness is never really "broken". It only appears to be so as a result of conditioning -- the mind wants to grasp at objects; and identification with the stories (personality, ego, etc etc). 

 

When one is stabilized in abiding as awareness, there is always a constant - awareness is awareness of being aware (or Self-awareness).

 

Thanks. So day to day life (and sleep) is exactly the same for an aware person and an unaware person? Turiya is really no different in any way, and you still have the same dreams and daily daydreams/fantasies.

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks. So day to day life (and sleep) is exactly the same for an aware person and an unaware person? Turiya is really no different in any way, and you still have the same dreams and daily daydreams/fantasies.

 For a Self-aware person, there is no longer the delusion that the "waking, dream and deep sleep" states are the end-all and be-all of existence. He/she is not fazed by any happenings in the world (or other worlds either). He/she won't have any issues with anything naturally rising in awareness, as there is the constant cognition of being free from whatever arises and falls in these three states. In other words, there is neither resistance to what comes and goes, nor attachment. So the Self-aware person progressively becomes free (as abidance deepens). In my experience the recognition of one's True Nature is a gate through which there is no turning back to ignorance (of Self-nature). However, the causal tendencies (karma) take a while to run dry. 

 

[s1va]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

Could you simplify the premise for me?

 

I knew a young woman who slept with her eyes open, and did maintain awareness during sleep, and through my own experience with her I know this went on for years. She would not have made any spiritual claims.. 

 

Soo, is the premise that if one experiences awareness during sleep it isn't this magical Turiya thing? Or is it something more? 

 

 

I can try to simplify.  But, in order to answer this, we need to explore the states jagrat chitta or the consciousness present during the waking state and the components of the mind that I discussed earlier.  In the framework I follow, the mind is basically made up of the 4 components (intellect (buddhi), manas (sensory mind), chitta (the subconscious, the mental formations, the habit energy, the vasanas or the impressions that we have been storing all along) and finally the ego that identifies as 'I' - ahamkara).  I explained these parts and which ones functions during sleep and waking states with a picture I borrowed from Integral Yoga or Aurobindo earlier. Not sure if you checked that post.  The sensory mind with sense organs and sense perceptions is generally off during sleep.  Some may claim intellect is always on, but it is obscured with the other states.  Like in a person who is drunk, the power of the intellect is diminished or non-existent at times.  In the sleep state intellect can come on at times, but generally this portion of the mind is obscured.  The ahamkara or the 'I' identification is obviously present in the waking and dream states, yet our true nature is covered by tamas (ignorance) in the deep sleep state.

 

It is the Vasana Chitta or the subconscious layer of the mind that is always active 24/7.  During the sleep phase it is predominant.  During the waking state, we think or feel that it is the waking conscious that is acting and making decisions, but truly it is the subconscious or chitta layer that drives things.  A majority of our actions are based on our instincts, our preferences, likes and dislikes, the habit energies, mental formations and impressions we have been storing all along.   This chitta is built from the start of our existence when the entire creation came upon.  This influences each and every one of our actions.  Some of these subconscious impressions get released during the sleep state which we experience as dreams.  All of this I have explained so far is to understand the waking, dream and deep sleep states.  Just because the sensory mind is present at times temporarily or parts of the sensory mind is awake in some all the times due to their special abilities (siddhis), it does not indicate Turiya in all of these cases.  Like Swami Rama example I gave, he was able to listen to everything while sleeping and snoring under laboratory medical observation.  It does not automatically indicate Turiya or Turiyatita in my view.

 

As far as your example of the woman, I cannot honestly make a determination if she is in Turiya or not.  It would be wrong and judgemental if I do so.  I think each person has to make a honest determination for themselves when they get there.  But, it is possible to easily confuse other experiences of mind with the much higher attainments such as Turiya and Turiyatita that are beyond local and universal mind.  That is the entire point of this thread.  To bring awareness, let each person question and decide for themselves about the states.  Not just listen and accept because some person claiming to be awakened says so.   If only certain senses are present during the sleep state, that does not automatically indicate the state of Turiya.  Those who have reached Turiya and Turiyatita states have reached the highest state of realizations.  Generally they radiate such realization and if we are close to them, we may be able to observe and feel.  Such people always act with compassion and their activities are geared towards helping others and relieving the suffering of all sentient beings.  

 

There is one clear distinction of the jagrat avastha or the waking state that I have mentioned already.  It is the vividness or objectivity of the worldly experience due to the result of the fully functional sensory mind with the 5 sense perceptions  and the 5 sense organs.  This state of the waking experience does not carry into the sleep states, whether it is dream or deep sleep.  Each person can decide for themselves from their own experience.  We can only honestly question and decide based on our experiences.  We all know for that the vividness and objectivity of the worldly experience present in the waking state is not present in sleep states.  Except in lucid dreaming, even then the actual sense organs of the sensory mind are absent.  And it is not necessary to carry such waking consciousness into sleep for the higher realizations. 

 

Voidisyinyang explained such states as temporary Nirvikalpa Samadhi states.  I tend to agree with him.  It is not my intention to discount anyone's experience.  Some people waste tremendous amounts of time in trying to get lucid dreaming experiences, or trying to bring conscious awareness into the sleep.  If you read/check some other places online, you might see people taking supplements, drugs or going to any lengths to get such experiences, assuming it is some high achievement.  If a person visits sites like Amazon or retail stores, there are products sold claiming they induce certain sleep experiences or lucid dreaming or even more.  My intention is to bring some awareness into this whole picture.  Take claims of achievements and experiences in sleep with a pinch of salt.  The initial link I posted stated some of these methods that induce lucid dreaming can cause harm and affect the normal sleep that we all need as humans.

 

In my view simple mindfulness practice during the waking state, automatically takes over awareness to all other states.  Getting a good night's sleep without trying to achieve something during the sleep also is the best in my opinion.  Eventually everyone progresses and moves on to higher states.  I have accepted there is some value to lucid dreaming and it can make a person understand that everything is just a projection of the mind.  Such value from this experience is limited in my views.  Some others do not agree and I am okay with that.  Why chase some experiences or take the words or claims of some to believe it is possible to maintain the consciousness such the waking state in other states like dream and deep sleep.  Even talk about Turiya, Turiyatita, etc are all of limited value compared to being present and reside just in the here and now.

[steve]

4 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

Having said that, I hope that you do get the book about Joe Miller as he is probably the most outrageous, unorthodox mystic I've ever encountered. The stories in the book are absolutely hilarious and irreverently reverent in a most unique way. Joe was in vaudeville and was at heart an entertainer .. but what an entertainer ! He combined depth with humor and behaviors that would readily shake people out of their intellectualism.

 

Joe enjoyed bursting into one of his wife's "Songs To Live By" from time to time.

 

"Ignore the opinions of others.

Let the rumors of your foolishness spread far and wide.

None if it matters in the least.

Busy yourself with the burning of all of the furniture

    in the house of the mind.

When the job is finished, dynamite the foundations

    and bulldoze the lot."

 

"Then, you'll be ready to meditate," he would remark afterward.

 

I ordered it, thanks again for the recommendation.

Some of my favorite teachers are as entertaining as they are informing.

The most profound lessons I've learned have been non-verbal.

 

One lesson I learned from my current teacher is that our spiritual growth is more closely related to our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves; than it is related to any information or knowledge we may possess or gain. He'll often say on retreat, 'if you came here for information you'll be disappointed' and remind us that we can find any information we could ever want with a computer or smartphone in a matter of minutes. We gather on retreat to deepen our connection as a community, to deepen our experience through meditation, through sharing, and distancing from the day to day distractions... not to hoard techniques, concepts, and theories. I do acknowledge that there is a legitimate path one can tread to try and liberate the mind through the mind itself but that path is not the one for me.

 

That is one disappointment for me here. I see far too much focus on information, on being correct, on 'winning' a debate at any cost; on figuring things out, on quoting dead gurus, rather than honoring living teachers and traditions. I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion. For a "spiritual" forum, we can be very closed-minded and opinionated. It's something I'd like to see change but I ain't gonna hold my breath!

 

Sorry to rant but this is a good thread for it...

:

 

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I ordered it, thanks again for the recommendation.

Some of my favorite teachers are as entertaining as they are informing.

The most profound lessons I've learned have been non-verbal.

 

One lesson I learned from my current teacher is that our spiritual growth is more closely related to our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves; than it is related to any information or knowledge we may possess or gain. He'll often say on retreat, 'if you came here for information you'll be disappointed' and remind us that we can find any information we could ever want with a computer or smartphone in a matter of minutes. We gather on retreat to deepen our connection as a community, to deepen our experience through meditation, through sharing, and distancing from the day to day distractions... not to hoard techniques, concepts, and theories. I do acknowledge that there is a legitimate path one can tread to try and liberate the mind through the mind itself but that path is not the one for me.

 

That is one disappointment for me here. I see far too much focus on information, on being correct, on 'winning' a debate at any cost; on figuring things out, on quoting dead gurus, rather than honoring living teachers and traditions. I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion. For a "spiritual" forum, we can be very closed-minded and opinionated. It's something I'd like to see change but I ain't gonna hold my breath!

 

Sorry to rant but this is a good thread for it...

:

 

 

I agree with the opinionated, but that is probably a natural product of different views.  Also, if everyone just agreed there would be nothing to discuss. 

 

I also agree with your point on spiritual growth is more closely related to our connections than with any information.  I miss the old Taobums days when there was an active chatroom where people would do actual practices and experiment together. Directly sharing is always better than intellectually debating.  

[Still_Waters]

2 hours ago, s1va said:

 

All of the above has nothing to do with this topic.  This is just a minor example from your posts in this topic.  I can quote several others, but what is the point!  If you want to tell glorious stories from your past about kumbha mela, or go on and on about the books you read to prove your intellectual prowess to the world, I suggest you do it in your PPD area and not in this thread.  This forum generously gives everyone a platform as PPD, where they can talk about themselves and their practices.  In the 8 pages of this thread, you have written more intellectual stuff and theory than anyone else and yet go on to challenge others about intellectual theory.  Totally ironic and sad!

I hear you !

[Still_Waters]

5 hours ago, s1va said:

 

No changes in my view!  Conscious awareness in sleep is a myth to me.  Just because some senses are alert in some temporary states with some, it does not prove anything.  The state that transcends as described earlier is something else.

 

I agree it is as simple as everyone's experience through the 3 states.  I am asking everyone to investigate and find out for themselves.  Not to rely on statements like yours (or mine) and decide.

 

This topic might have gone into obscurity if it was left alone.  Thanks to you and some others, who just can't help it, it is reaching to more audience and getting a much broader view than a topic like this typically gathers! In a way I should thank some of you who simply can't let it go and keeping this topic alive and on the top every single day.

 

I hardly check or read the posts anymore.  

Acknowledged. Our positions are clear and well-defined.

 

Feel free to ignore all of my posts, as you have duly indicated.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Still_Waters

[liminal_luke]

13 minutes ago, steve said:

 

That is one disappointment for me here. I see far too much focus on information, on being correct, on 'winning' a debate at any cost; on figuring things out, on quoting dead gurus, rather than honoring living teachers and traditions. I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion. For a "spiritual" forum, we can be very closed-minded and opinionated. It's something I'd like to see change but I ain't gonna hold my breath!

 

Sorry to rant but this is a good thread for it...

:

 

 

As rants go, this one is spot-on.

 

Being right is to spirituality as Snickers is to food.  I too hope for the deeper nourishment of genuine camaraderie and mutual support.  The posts I find most beneficial are the personal stories (KumbaMela) and shared resources (DeMillo).  Thanks to all who have generously shared from the heart.  My life is richer for your sharing.