The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep

[s1va]

On 1/29/2019 at 6:07 AM, neti neti said:

Turiya, or that which is pointed to beyond the 3 most familiar states of being, is not another state. It is consciousness itself.

 

It was not my intention to discuss what Turiya is in this thread, however we seem to keep getting back there.  Yes, your post sounds consistent within the scope of the Advaita system.  But in Trika, Kashmir Shaivism, Pratyabhijna and other Tantra traditions it is a different state.  This consciousness can be appreciated at the  purusha+prakriti level without any actual expansion of the individual jiva to become everything in the cosmos.  This is what generally happens in most cases and many conclude this is it and stop there!

 

[s1va]

In the following statements, Swami Lakshmanjoo explains the waking, dream, deep sleep states and Turiya from the Kashmir Shaivism point of view.  His views about the waking, dream and deep sleep states are consistent with my experience and with my views on Turiya.  There are states beyond the Turiya which are described as Turiyatita. Some traditions stop at the turiya level and for them awareness may be the end of the road.  The vividness of objectivity that is the characteristic of the waking state (described below as jagrat) will never become that of the sleep states (swapna and sushupti) and to claim so is a myth.  This is the gist of this entire thread.

 

"The masters of the Pratyabhijñā School say that when you remain in that state where your consciousness is directed towards objectivity (bahirvṛitti) and you are no longer in your own subjective consciousness, that state is to be known as jāgrat. When you remain only in the sphere of impressions and thoughts (saṁkalpa nirmāṇa), that state is to be known as svapna. And when there is the absolute destruction of all impressions, thoughts, and consciousness (pralayopamam), when you are absolutely dead in your own self, that state is to be known as suṣupti.

 

Abhinavagupta, the greatest master of Śaivism and the greatest philosopher the world has ever known, gives the general definition of these states so that the student will know that there is really no difference at all between the Trika Śaivite and the Pratyabhijñā points of view. He explains that when there is vividness of objectivity, that is the state of jāgrat. When the vividness of objectivity is shaky and unstable, that is svapna. When the vividness of objectivity is gone completely that is suṣupti. When super-observation is found by some observing agency, that is turya. And when that objectivity is individually dead and found full of life in totality, that is turyātīta*."

 

[Still_Waters]

On 1/30/2019 at 10:41 PM, voidisyinyang said:

 

yes the emphasis should be on practice - and as for "what" my practice, and "what" my experiences I've had, "results", and "action" - etc. -

first - on Ken Wilber - I consider him to be a pseudo-intellectual. I critique him in my master's thesis and that was way back in 2000 (University of Minnesota). So then I attempted to contact him to get a response from him about my critique. Instead his volunteer webmaster just published my master's thesis on his website (it's no longer up - what was that urL? )....

 

So without going into my critique of Wilber - one thing that I did notice as you quoted on Mouna Samadhi - is Wilber claimed that the mind could never be quieted - that there was ALWAYS thoughts going on. And I disagreed with him right there. But then Master Nan, Huai-chin emphasizes how to claim you have no thoughts is itself a thought - and so there has to still be a deeper level.

 

So a good book that critiques Ramana Maharshi is the book "Measuring Meditation" by Bill Bodri (based on Master Nan, Huai-chin).

What Master Nan, Huai-chin emphasized is that there is a need to empty out the conceptual mind - the 6th level of consciousness - in our modern world today with it's low level of dharma. And so that is what my project was for the past 20 years.

 

But in the end I returned back to the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" - I consider that to be the best book on what you are "still in the dark" about. It's a free book - just search the title. I like the "word searchable" full text version in archive - but if you want the images in the book then you need the pdf archive.

 

So when I finished my master's thesis - then I realized I had to "unlearn" more - and that book Taoist YOga states that after the first enlightenment experience of achieving the Tao - chapter 6 or so - there is a period of great confusion. In other words - I did experience directly this Ether-Knowledge as the Emptiness space-time vortex. This was AFTER I saw ghosts and smelled cancer in people (after I had fasted for a week - and meditated the whole time  and my qi energy kept increasing). In other words I did achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi which is what the real Emptiness is in Taoist Yoga.

 

So here is the deal - the dreams do have to be controlled as the subconscious has to be controlled. This is called "preparing" for sleep - as Master Ni, Huang-chi describes it. But in today's "tantric" technology world - this is like going against a black hole - a psychic black hole. So in my case - I sought out a qigong master who does the Shakti energy healing like Poonjaji did - or Ramana - only in the Buddhist-Daoist tradition - there is a more "hands on" approach. For example Poonjaji gives the example in his memoir how he gave a Westerner TOO MUCH Shakti - and so for several days the Westerner, a young male, was running around claiming he was Jesus. haha. So in Daoism, it is realized there first HAS to be a strong foundation (the Lower Tan T'ien) - so that there is not too much resistance when (to put it into Western terms) the high voltage is then transformed or step-downed into higher amps.

 

OK so since I had read a lot of Advaita philosophy - like David Loy's book (back when I was doing the qigong meditation training in 2000) - then I was confused too easily. I thought of the Emptiness as a static realm that was everywhere. So in other words there was the same amount of Emptiness in a piece of crap as in an angel - and so I began hanging out with homeless people and I ate out of dumpsters and I practiced tantra - ate meat and garlic and did psychic full lotus free healing for years in fast food restaurants. I even reported all this as it happened on THIS website - back starting around 2007 and up to 2009.  So this was very intense tantra training but I didn't realize I was burning off my Yuan Qi energy. It was only the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" that describes this problem of the "evil fire of the heart." But as Professor Hugh B. Urban details - the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive. So instead the poor people  opted for tantra practice.

 

And this is the problem of the Western advaita "scene." So for example in Daoist - Buddhist meditation - if a so-called spiritual guru can not sit in full lotus with ease - for as long as the person wants - then their body channels are not open and clearly they can not even achieve real Nirvikalpa Samadhi!! Yet the WEstern Advaita scene does not acknowledge this truth. haha. As I mentioned - for real Jnana Yoga then the other types of yoga are preliminary training. So celibacy and vegetarianism and fasting, etc.

 

The other thing to consider as I mentioned - Ramana states at first to repeat I-I-I-I and listen to the source of the I-thought. But as the I-thought concentrates then he says to visualize light on the right side of the heart. Now if you read the book Taoist Yoga it states the yuan qi originates on the right side of the heart. I was given this experience by qigong master Jim Nance http://guidingqi.com and he is the only 2nd level qigong master student of Chunyi Lin who was the teacher I did intensive training from to finish my master's degree http://springforestqigong.com

 

So Ramana Maharshi calls this the "three-in-one unity" - referring to the three gunas. As I stated this is in fact the same as Daoist philosophy. In fact Kriya Yoga is considered to be from the three gunas also and is also the same as Daoist alchemy meditation training. I go into this in my free pdf training links below. So as for action - all we can do is continual purification and harmonization of the body-mind-spirit-Emptiness (formless awareness).

 

So yes essentially the phrase "Silence is Golden" is the key to the practice but what Westerners don't realize is that music theory is the secret to meditation. I figured this out from my intense music studies privately while in high school. So in science it's called "noncommutative phase." This is more advanced than anything that Ken Wilber or Capra can realize - you have to study Eddie Oshins of SLAC (STanford Linear Accelerator Center). Trust men - no one knows about Eddie Oshins!! I had to really search him out. Although I have corresponded with his collaborator - math professor Louis Kauffman who was also at SLAC. OK so Oshins had worked with Karl Pribram on the holographic model, but Pribram could not grasp the noncommutative phase math logic. Oshins also taught Wing Chun (Bruce Lee's lineage) and Oshins realized that Daoist alchemy meditation (Neigong) was the SAME as noncommutative phase logic of relativistic quantum physics.

 

This is not to equate the two - but rather, dialectically - they are two opposite extremes that have now overlapped. And so my actions and experiences - well it's like Crazy Zen style. In other words only the Formless Awareness is not hypocritical. So I could be a total shit-head right after I heal someone and people might think I'm crazy. And yet the healing does take place. haha. As the book Taoist Yoga states - the "yin qi" is actually just an immature form of the yuan qi. So this is what Ramana Maharshi is referring to - Poonjaji called it the  "space between thoughts." So when we dream at night - it is our Liver yin qi that is active since our spirit is going out of our eyes when awake. In fact we can experience this through meditation - at the first breath upon waking we can actually experience the light shoot up to our skull and out of our eyes. So then for example flying dreams - Jim Nance said to me - yes that is actually a liver blockage! So this is solved by Daoist alchemy - if you study the book Taoist Yoga for details. Also his lineage (the author of that book) - on using standing active exercises, etc.

 

So as the Daoist tradition teaches - along with the Buddhist - the main blockage is emotional and then nutritional. For example Shri Dhanyogi - he traveled across the US giving Shaktipat healings. But he could NEVER find a diet pure enough to his suiting. As one of his students explained - the toxins of the body get leached out of the skull - out of the gums. Qigong master Chunyi Lin says as "qigong people' we can only eat to 70% full or else the food "goes to the head." So this is a permanent rewiriing of the physiology into an ascetic lifestyle after the pineal gland and heart are opened up - the main channel as the Emptiness- Nirvikalpa awakening. I even stopped practicing for several months to see if the permanent magnetic bliss of the pineal gland would go away - back in 2001. NOPE - all my body channels closed up though. haha.

 

So then the third blockage is environmental - meaning the feng shui and also the weather and social conditions - practice conditions. So most people are never going to get past these three main blockages. For example Jim Nance quit his career job so he could train in qigong full time. Why? He said he kept getting energy blockages from his job. So then he meditated 12 hours a day - for 10 years. Then he was declared a 2nd level qigong master only after he did a sabbatical of nonstop meditation for months - to truly achieve "eternal liberation" as Ramana Maharshi called it - or as Jim called it a true enlightenment experience of the heart. So yes - he gave me that experience briefly - of the deep right side heart Yuan Qi activation beyond death.

 

So I have written several free books - pdfs - about my training experiences and my "unlearning" experiences - linked on my old blog http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com

 

But I don't recommend people waste their time on that stuff. I am just a beginner. As Jim says, I "fell out of enlightenment" or as Master Nan, Huai-chin states - most people in the modern world develop "heroic over-exuberance" as the spiritual powers manifest - and so then use those spiritual powers and then "fall back into worldliness." So his books are available online free in pdf - if you dig. They were in print when I read them but now no longer and he died maybe five years ago. One person who used to post here - they translate Master Nan's talks and post the video talks with translation on youtube.

 

 

 

 

 

The book I mentioned was EDITED by Ken Wilbur. I read with interest your connection with Ken Wilbur but the book that I recommended merely is a composite of the writings of the Nobel-Prize winning quantum physicists and all Ken Wilbur did was to put them together into one book. The writings really have nothing to do with Ken Wilbur and are quite interesting, especially Schroedinger's comments.

 

It's good to hear that you experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi as that gives one a glimpse of the Reality. Of course, it is temporary and the next step is to move on towards Sahaja (seedless) Samadhi and that's one of the benefits of my "conscious sleep" practice. It identifies inner pressures from both the conscious and the subconscious that trigger dream formation. Once identified, they can be addressed either through yoga (discrimination) or bhoga (indulgence to get them out of the way). In any case, that's what I do as, one by one, I try to eliminate them so that virtually nothing drives me and I can surrender in the moment to that which lies beyond thoughts and guides one unerringly in the best interests of all (the Totality) with no expectation of a return. That works for me.

 

I had not realized that " the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive." That is indeed disconcerting about the Ramakrishna order. I sometimes go to the Vedanta centers (Ramakrishna groups) in NYC and I have not experienced the expensive nature that you mentioned. However, I can't rule out that it was that way in the past.

 

Your explorations and practices are indeed intriguing and illuminating. We all seem to take some interesting steps along the pathless path and even Buddha practiced extreme austerities before he discovered that the "Middle Way" was more appropriate. I've personally taken some interesting steps which were learning experiences in some ways but from which I backtracked to proceed in an entirely different direction. One learns through one's experiences.

 

I have to ponder your point: "So for example in Daoist - Buddhist meditation - if a so-called spiritual guru can not sit in full lotus with ease - for as long as the person wants - then their body channels are not open and clearly they can not even achieve real Nirvikalpa Samadhi!! " In my formative years, when my spiritual mentor would say or do something that really commanded my attention (as she often did), I would sit in the lotus position absorbed in meditation without being aware of the elapsed time and only after I came out of the meditation did I realize that 8-9 hours had passed in that state. Now, however, I rarely do sitting meditations and was not really surprised when I saw a quote from Ramana Maharshi saying something to the effect that sitting in meditation at prescribed times for specific times is only for the merest of spiritual novices (by his standards, I assume. LOL)

 

While Ramana may indeed talk about visualizing the light on the right side of the heart, that practice never resonated with me as my chakra meditations guided me further up to the ajna and then to the sahasrara. When Ramana Maharshi spoke to a Jewish group, he stressed the importance of "Be still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10). In his "Talks", he defined "Be Still" as the I AM with no other thoughts. (Of course, this is an intermediate step as he added that "that which is (eventually) no longer even says I AM.) That resonated more for more than the heart visualization. However, I readily concede that "different strokes for different folks" is applicable even to spiritual aspirants. LOL

 

I agree with you when you say "all we can do is continual purification and harmonization of the body-mind-spirit-Emptiness (formless awareness)." The points on the guna, however, seem to have varying levels from the gross to the subtle and hence require more thought. Nisargadatta Maharaj indicated that the gunas on the subtlest levels as one spirals up towards self-realization are (1) inspiration (sattva) of varying degrees of purity, of course; (2) activity (rajas) as one acts on the inspiration; and (3) consolidation (tamas) as one becomes firmly established in the realization and is ready for the next one in the cycle. That resonated with me relative to the gunas.

 

I am familiar with Karl Pribram and the holographic model but I have never heard of Eddie Oshins. I will have to check him out before commenting on that section of your post.

 

I must think more about your comments on healing as it is a well-known fact that people with "multiple personality disorders" (now called a dissociative disorder) can have a serious dis-ease like diabetes with one personality but it disappears immediately with the emergence of another personality only to reappear once again with the re-emergence of the dis-eased personality. Having had a near death experience years ago when I emerged SYMPTOM-FREE from a three day "irreversible coma" (doctors predicted extensive brain damage and organ damage if I survived), I have studied the process of healing and the mind-body connection. As a matter of fact, I recently received an e-mail from abroad from a fellow with whom I had worked meditatively. In it , he told me that his degenerative incurable neurological  disease is actually reversing itself and that a television documentary is being planned regarding his positive outlook and remarkable results. Healing is indeed an absorbing phenomenon and one that I have studied carefully without drawing attention to myself. My spiritual mentor would similarly recommend a practice and thus facilitate the dis-eased one becoming a light unto him/her self and a healer for him/her self.

 

I once asked a renowned healer in India how much of the healing was due to him and how much to the dis-eased person. After staring at me for an uncomfortably long time, he finally said that 70% of the healing was due to the patient himself and that the 30% which he contributed as a "healer" was convincing the patient that healing was indeed possible. The specific methodology was not particularly important as long as the receiver believed that it would work. Hence, he used many different modalities depending on the belief system of the patient. I am similarly inclined though I realize that some illnesses serve a purpose and must run their course. This leads us to a deeper discussion on the nature of life and death but that is a discussion for another time.

 

As you duly noted, "Silence is (indeed) golden". We are in total agreement on that point and it needs no further discussion.

 

Your concluding statement is absolutely right on target: "..as Master Nan, Huai-chin states - most people in the modern world develop "heroic over-exuberance" as the spiritual powers manifest - and so then use those spiritual powers and then "fall back into worldliness." That is why I have lost all interest in powers after realizing that virtually anything is possible. The great masters point out the pitfalls associated with the intense urge to acquire powers, and thus I personally have avoided interest in any acquisition of powers. As Ramana Maharshi has indicated, when one is firmly established in that sublime state, one can call upon whatever powers are needed to address the situation at hand in the best interests of all with no expectation of a return. That is how I see things now.

 

Thank you very much for your very informative and illuminating post. I read it with great interest and will probably read it again ... and again. In addition, I will check out Eddie Ochins.

 

Thank you again for sharing all this. I really appreciate it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Still_Waters

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

The book I mentioned was EDITED by Ken Wilbur. I read with interest your connection with Ken Wilbur but the book that I recommended merely is a composite of the writings of the Nobel-Prize winning quantum physicists and all Ken Wilbur did was to put them together into one book. The writings really have nothing to do with Ken Wilbur and are quite interesting, especially Schroedinger's comments.

 

It's good to hear that you experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi as that gives one a glimpse of the Reality. Of course, it is temporary and the next step is to move on towards Sahaja (seedless) Samadhi and that's one of the benefits of my "conscious sleep" practice. It identifies inner pressures from both the conscious and the subconscious that trigger dream formation. Once identified, they can be addressed either through yoga (discrimination) or bhoga (indulgence to get them out of the way). In any case, that's what I do as, one by one, I try to eliminate them so that virtually nothing drives me and I can surrender in the moment to that which lies beyond thoughts and guides one unerringly in the best interests of all (the Totality) with no expectation of a return. That works for me.

 

I had not realized that " the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive." That is indeed disconcerting about the Ramakrishna order. I sometimes go to the Vedanta centers (Ramakrishna groups) in NYC and I have not experienced the expensive nature that you mentioned. However, I can't rule out that it was that way in the past.

 

Your explorations and practices are indeed intriguing and illuminating. We all seem to take some interesting steps along the pathless path and even Buddha practiced extreme austerities before he discovered that the "Middle Way" was more appropriate. I've personally taken some interesting steps which were learning experiences in some ways but from which I backtracked to proceed in an entirely different direction. One learns through one's experiences.

 

I have to ponder your point: "So for example in Daoist - Buddhist meditation - if a so-called spiritual guru can not sit in full lotus with ease - for as long as the person wants - then their body channels are not open and clearly they can not even achieve real Nirvikalpa Samadhi!! " In my formative years, when my spiritual mentor would say or do something that really commanded my attention (as she often did), I would sit in the lotus position absorbed in meditation without being aware of the elapsed time and only after I came out of the meditation did I realize that 8-9 hours had passed in that state. Now, however, I rarely do sitting meditations and was not really surprised when I saw a quote from Ramana Maharshi saying something to the effect that sitting in meditation at prescribed times for specific times is only for the merest of spiritual novices (by his standards, I assume. LOL)

 

While Ramana may indeed talk about visualizing the light on the right side of the heart, that practice never resonated with me as my chakra meditations guided me further up to the ajna and then to the sahasrara. When Ramana Maharshi spoke to a Jewish group, he stressed the importance of "Be still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10). In his "Talks", he defined "Be Still" as the I AM with no other thoughts. (Of course, this is an intermediate step as he added that "that which is (eventually) no longer even says I AM.) That resonated more for more than the heart visualization. However, I readily concede that "different strokes for different folks" is applicable even to spiritual aspirants. LOL

 

I agree with you when you say "all we can do is continual purification and harmonization of the body-mind-spirit-Emptiness (formless awareness)." The points on the guna, however, seem to have varying levels from the gross to the subtle and hence require more thought. Nisargadatta Maharaj indicated that the gunas on the subtlest levels as one spirals up towards self-realization are (1) inspiration (sattva) of varying degrees of purity, of course; (2) activity (rajas) as one acts on the inspiration; and (3) consolidation (tamas) as one becomes firmly established in the realization and is ready for the next one in the cycle. That resonated with me relative to the gunas.

 

I am familiar with Karl Pribram and the holographic model but I have never heard of Eddie Oshins. I will have to check him out before commenting on that section of your post.

 

I must think more about your comments on healing as it is a well-known fact that people with "multiple personality disorders" (now called a dissociative disorder) can have a serious dis-ease like diabetes with one personality but it disappears immediately with the emergence of another personality only to reappear once again with the re-emergence of the dis-eased personality. Having had a near death experience years ago when I emerged SYMPTOM-FREE from a three day "irreversible coma" (doctors predicted extensive brain damage and organ damage if I survived), I have studied the process of healing and the mind-body connection. As a matter of fact, I recently received an e-mail from abroad from a fellow with whom I had worked meditatively. In it , he told me that his degenerative incurable neurological  disease is actually reversing itself and that a television documentary is being planned regarding his positive outlook and remarkable results. Healing is indeed an absorbing phenomenon and one that I have studied carefully without drawing attention to myself. My spiritual mentor would similarly recommend a practice and thus facilitate the dis-eased one becoming a light unto him/her self and a healer for him/her self.

 

I once asked a renowned healer in India how much of the healing was due to him and how much to the dis-eased person. After staring at me for an uncomfortably long time, he finally said that 70% of the healing was due to the patient himself and that the 30% which he contributed as a "healer" was convincing the patient that healing was indeed possible. The specific methodology was not particularly important as long as the receiver believed that it would work. Hence, he used many different modalities depending on the belief system of the patient. I am similarly inclined though I realize that some illnesses serve a purpose and must run their course. This leads us to a deeper discussion on the nature of life and death but that is a discussion for another time.

 

As you duly noted, "Science is (indeed) golden". We are in total agreement on that point and it needs no further discussion.

 

Your concluding statement is absolutely right on target: "..as Master Nan, Huai-chin states - most people in the modern world develop "heroic over-exuberance" as the spiritual powers manifest - and so then use those spiritual powers and then "fall back into worldliness." That is why I have lost all interest in powers after realizing that virtually anything is possible. The great masters point out the pitfalls associated with the intense urge to acquire powers, and thus I personally have avoided interest in any acquisition of powers. As Ramana Maharshi has indicated, when one is firmly established in that sublime state, one can call upon whatever powers are needed to address the situation at hand in the best interests of all with no expectation of a return. That is how I see things now.

 

Thank you very much for your very informative and illuminating post. I read it with great interest and will probably read it again ... and again. In addition, I will check out Eddie Ochins.

 

Thank you again for sharing all this. I really appreciate it.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwi16_3L05ngAhXh6IMKHdFUCbcQFjAEegQICxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2F4evangiles.fr%2Fpdf%2FWilber%2F1984%20-%20Quantum%20Questions%20-%20Mystical%20writings%20of%20the%20world%27s%20greatest%20physicists.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2KUAHF_sfDiMaxipZgkH5i

 

that is the pdf link to the book that Wilber edited.

Yes I compiled 77 different quotes from physicists discussing Louis de Broglie's "Law of Phase Harmony" which he considered his most important discovery.

http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com/2018/01/summarizing-de-broglie-pilot-wave-law.html

I have blog posts on Eddie Oshins also - I did posts here as well.

So the student of de Broglie, the physicist Olivier Costa de Beauregard - I quote him on my blog - he believed in precognition, telepathy, telekinesis, etc. as being inherent to relativistic quantum physics. The thing about Schroedinger is that he removed the relativity part in order to derive his "wave function."

 

Anyway as for my "path of no path" - actually it's based on music theory. I studied music from a young age, including with a former University music professor. So the suddenly I realized that Pythagoras was correct. But as I studied this more I then realized that Daoism is also based on the same music harmonics as Pythagorean philosophy - and yet what the  West is "taught" as Pythagorean is actually NOT at all - rather that's the "cover up" of real Pythagorean philosophy! So people learn Platonic philosophy and think it is Pythagorean.

 

So in terms of being too intellectual - the problem with Wilber is  he is racist and thinks of the West as some kind of spiritual evolution - and doesn't realize the problem of the West goes back to the lies of Plato - from the wrong music theory. Anyway so this also goes into Brahmin Vedic philosphy since the symmetric math logic is from Vedic and Zoroastrian philosophy - as math professor Abraham Seidenberg details.

 

On full lotus - yes Robert Peng, qigong master, did a livestream recently on youtube, saying how when he was young he was much more flexible but now that he is older he is not as flexible. So to maintain the flexibility requires constant body training. Ramana Maharshi though relied on his helpers to take care of his body - I guess the caste system does that also with the warriors protecting the brahmin priests, etc.

 

Anyway DNA science has now proven that indeed a Brahmin "invasion" did occur - via chariots - and this can be traced via the Brahmin caste throughout INdia. It's pretty fascinating actually - and so is the denial of the science. haha. I said "Silence is Golden" I think - that is what you meant but typed "science is golden." haha.

 

As Poonjaji pointed out the "Nisargadatta" - - Nisargadatta he did not have any shakti power. The shakti is a natural expression of the "sahaja samadhi" that you refer to. This was a disagreement I had with David Godman back 15 years ago. He claims that Ramana Maharshi did not need to practice meditation anymore after his experience of Nirvikalpa samadhi at age 16. Actually Ramana had to practice meditation nonstop for 9 years - even refusing to see his own mom!! Only then did his heart stop for 15 minutes and he permanently "cut the knot" to achieve eternal liberation. So the Western Advaita scene in my opinion is full of lots of left brain ego that disregards how much meditation and the precise circumstances necessary.  This is exactly why someone like "Nisargadatta" is more popular - since he has an intellectual approach with no shakti and so it is more accessible for Westerners.

 

The multiple personality disease thing is interesting. Qigong master Yan Xin points out - in his book "Benefits of Internal Cultivation" (the title is approximate - ) - a friend of his was spending a lot of time with Yan Xin while Yan Xin was doing healing all the time, as he does. So Yan Xin had to warn the friend that he would end up absorbing the blockages that Yan Xin picked up from the healing work he did! Sure enough this is what happened. So yes qigong master Jim Nance had to heal me of the tantric blockages I had absorbed - the low frequency light holographic energy - from tantra. I could feel the Yuan Qi as a strong electrical pulsation all through  my nether region - it was a bit embarrassing. But I knew what he was doing so I didn't say anything as he did it. He told me later - how he had to heal those blockages from tantra.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2019-01-24 at 11:04 PM, voidisyinyang said:

 

Really? You mean a Head Lamp? https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

 

Yes, I know Taoist Yoga and Damo Mitchell write about light phenomena. That is a part of those traditions. 

 

But in the context of this thread, if you go outside your comfort zone, you might find that the Light of Awareness means something else. 

Actually, if you read the excellent posts from many in this thread, you will get the point. 

If not, never mind. It might not be useful in your practice. 

[neti neti]

13 hours ago, s1va said:

 

It was not my intention to discuss what Turiya is in this thread, however we seem to keep getting back there.  Yes, your post sounds consistent within the scope of the Advaita system.  But in Trika, Kashmir Shaivism, Pratyabhijna and other Tantra traditions it is a different state.  This consciousness can be appreciated at the  purusha+prakriti level without any actual expansion of the individual jiva to become everything in the cosmos.  This is what generally happens in most cases and many conclude this is it and stop there!

 

 

There's something to be enjoyed in all views or models various schools adhere to. Advaita happens to consider Turiya as another experience also, and intimates the transcendental with Turiyatita; beyond mind, without necessarily "being the all" either.

 

I'm not so sure about the so-called individual's volitional potency in regard to anything that seems to happen or not happen, continue or cease... generally speaking. But that would surely be for another topic.

Edited February 1, 2019 by neti neti

[Patrick Brown]

I'm from an occult background and have experienced lucid dreaming on several occasions and although interesting I didn't dwell on it. The idea of a state of consciousness beyond the sleep state is one that is often postulated but also seems to entail the 'blowing out' of the 'permanent physical seed atom'. We don't have to see this 'seed atom' as anything tangible but more symbolic of a realm in/of which consciousness chooses to reside.   

 

The importance of the 'blowing out' of the 'physical seed atom' is that you no longer retain the ability to manifest on the physical plane/realm together with it's accompanying limitations and laws. The thing is, and it's very important to note, you do not sleep on any plane devoid of the physical! This means in 'blowing out' the 'physical seed atom' you are indeed awakened possibly at least until the next 'pralaya'. I would make sure that you know what you're doing before crossing that bridge! 

 

Heaven and hell!

Matthew 20:16 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

Quote

Pralaya (devanāgarī: प्रलय) is a Sanskrit word that means "dissolution" or "melting away" (from laya: "to dissolve" and pra "away"). In Hinduism it refers to a period where the universe is in a state of non-existence, which happens when the three gunas or qualities of matter are in perfect balance. The idea of pralaya is part of a cyclic model of the universe (present in several Eastern philosophies as well as in Theosophy) where the cosmos is said to appear and disappear regularly within the Absolute Reality:

 

source: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Pralaya 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Patrick Brown

[s1va]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:35 PM, liminal_luke said:

I have to admit that I was a bit annoyed when I first saw this thread.  What`s the point of casting aspersions on other people practices?  Little did I know that it would provoke so many great posts about awareness during sleep and from such an amazing cast of Bums old and new.  I feel newly inspired.

 

Perhaps you misunderstood the topic.  It is not my intention to cast aspersions on anyone's practice.  I agreed with Steve that different practices can be of immense value to different seekers.  I want to mention here that I own a copy of the book, 'Tibetan yoga of dream and sleep' and have great respect for the author and practiced certain things from this book in the past.  The higher awareness in the sleep state (basically in all states) this book talks about is Turiya and Turiyatita in my view and not about bringing the consciousness into sleep.  This particular topic is not about any tradition or practices.

 

The idea of this thread is to investigate and discuss the waking, dream and deep sleep states that we all go through every day, and to show the conscious awareness in the waking state cannot be maintained in the sleep at any stage.  As I mentioned in the OP, I read such claims in some places.  The 4th state that transcends all 3 is entirely different and not similar to the waking state.  I wanted to have a open discussion about this and for everyone to question such claims and decide for themselves from their own experiences.  Not just accept such claims of retaining consciousness in sleep at face value and to illustrate such claims have no validity based on certain traditions or scriptures as claimed.

 

There is quite a bit of misunderstanding and confusion surrounding this topic which can be clearly seen from some of the debates in this topic so far.  It is best for everyone to decide for themselves when they experience certain thing.  Unless and until it is part of our own direct experience (in this case conscious awareness in sleep consistently/permanently, not the fleeting lucid dream states or other temporary conscious awareness states in sleep like nirvikalpa samadhi/clear light states, etc. that can happen for few hours), it is better not to believe and be skeptical about such claims.  

[dwai]

 

14 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

 

I had not realized that " the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive."

That is just not true . Even today, RKM and Vedanta societies provide not only free classes but also does outreach programs, feeds people en masse.

 

14 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

That is indeed disconcerting about the Ramakrishna order. I sometimes go to the Vedanta centers (Ramakrishna groups) in NYC and I have not experienced the expensive nature that you mentioned. However, I can't rule out that it was that way in the past.

That’s been my experience since I was a child, when my grandfather would take my to free and public sessions at the RKM in my home town. To top it all, we’d get big glasses of fresh milk and cookies, again for free.

 

I recently attended a 3 day immersive program on Mandukya Upanishad, at the Vedanta society of Chicago’s retreat center in Ganges, MI. It cost me 150$ including room, food for the 3 days, which included all day sessions with swami sarvapriyananda of Vedanta society, NY. 

 

At such places (chinmaya mission, RKM), people volunteer with services or funding per one’s ability. There might be some membership fees but even those are optional.

 

[s1va]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Quote

 

I had not realized that " the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive."

That is just not true . Even today, RKM and Vedanta societies provide not only free classes but also does outreach programs, feeds people en masse.

 

Agree.  I have visited the Belur Math and Dakahineswar Kali Temple near Calcutta where the headquarters of the Ramakrishna mission is located and visited their other temples and offices in places like Chennai numerous times including in the past few years.  Poor people cannot afford to be part of, or learn in Ramakrishna mission is entirely wrong.  Any earnest/sincere seeker even if he/she is a mendicant can learn from the teachers or go and be part of the programs.  RKM is exemplary in this regard compared to other places that are also open to everyone.  

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I recently attended a 3 day immersive program on Mandukya Upanishad, at the Vedanta society of Chicago’s retreat center in Ganges, MI. It cost me 150$ including room, food for the 3 days, which included all day sessions with swami sarvapriyananda of Vedanta society, NY. 

 

At such places (chinmaya mission, RKM), people volunteer with services or funding per one’s ability. There might be some membership fees but even those are optional.

 

I have attended numerous programs and volunteered at times in Chinmaya Mission in the past 2 decades.  Directly interacted with many Swamis and still do at times. I have attended some lectures and programs in Arya Samaj by Swami Dayananda Saraswati also.  Not just study of Vedanta, we used to go out once a month to arrange free medical camps, etc in rural places when I lived in India.  Agree with Dwai on this also.  There is a small membership fee to those who can afford.  But, generally it's open door and anyone can go participate or learn.

 

Edit: Most public lectures on Vedanta, Upanishads, Gita (including multi-day intensive study) and even several classes in Chinmaya Mission are entirely free and open to everyone all over the world.  In the traditional Indian gurukula or schooling system,  students offered donation to acharya (teacher) only at the completion of their studies generally after several years, and what they offered was voluntary in most cases.  Similarly in Chinmaya Mission at the end of the multi-day lectures/teaching those who would like to, can pay their respects directly to the teacher and offer a voluntary guru dakshina (donation).  They do this by placing their contribution in a plain sealed envelope and directly present it to the swami/teacher. There is no recommended donation or even expectation from every participant to contribute.  The teacher/swami in turn offers blessings and provides a small gift back to the student as a token of gratitude, like a book.  In my experience this is how it works in CM to this day in India, America and everywhere else.  Some classes that provide boarding and lodging and few other programs have a nominal fee like the one Dwai mentioned.  

 

[dwai]

Those interested might want to take a look at this -- https://belurmath.org/relief/

These wonderful sages and their volunteers do service to humanity without much propaganda or publicity. Their model should be replicated world wide...desireless action (nishkāma karma) for the benefit of all mankind.  This is where people seeking to practice karma yoga can volunteer their time and efforts. 

[Everything]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Those interested might want to take a look at this -- https://belurmath.org/relief/

These wonderful sages and their volunteers do service to humanity without much propaganda or publicity. Their model should be replicated world wide...desireless action (nishkāma karma) for the benefit of all mankind.  This is where people seeking to practice karma yoga can volunteer their time and efforts. 

If you have no desire to help people, you will also have no desire to act and help people.

There are many people with the desire to help, but the reason they want to help, is because they want something in return.

And what they want from the people they want to help, is often something only the people in need are capable of offering them.

Which usually is companionship or love or appreciation.

 

But if someone has no desire to help, and he helps anyway, his actions will accomplish 100% nothingness. Because he was never destined to help those people. But his destiny, lies with some other intention, and agenda, and trajectory of soul and life, that is 100% unrelated to the people in need of help. Tho the co-creation of such an event lies only in the extension of time that is required for official soul related help to arrive, in accordance with the desire of the helpless and helpful, and their soul intertwining for the purpose of ever greater expansion.

 

When people are in need, that is due to karmic entanglement. They are not in need because they are helpless. They are in need because the helpers have chosen to be powerless. And the helpless nature of others thus then inspires an awakening of power within them. The calling of love, and the desire for love, emmenates all. And when people are truely in need, and when they are truely powerless, it is only of their own creation unto themselves. It is always an attempt to unify humanity. In efforts of help. We find our original home once again. In calling for help, we also find our original home once again. It is a destiny that is ever greater evermore.

 

For even those who've never received help, and have been without help for billions of years, and the hope for help and the desire for help has never died, not untill there was one human left. This human, could only extend his life, by stealing from those who are receiving the historical help. In order to fuel the hope for the existance of help. And in doing so, the benefits are tremendous. For even tho help is not found as it has been desired. The capability of this one individual, who has been allowed to steal, now suddenly... Brings new hope. And with that new hope, a calling for the history of his humanity arrives. A calling to join in his journey to find the true help. And in order to gain followers, thus then, this individual begins to help all of humanity, in ways they could have never fathomed that help could even be defined as such, to prevent them from desiring the help of historical times. And join him in requesting the help of future times. In the end the helper always fails, because the intention was never to help. But to request help. To join the universal request for love, once again. In a quest, of eternity, following the trails throughout the echoes in the hall of creation. That resonate evermore as the calling of Source. To come once again, and reinstate the original plan of creation.

 

The desire to help and the desire to be helped = 100% identical to the symbolic representation of RELIEF and all that is related to relief.

It is thus 100% desireful action. And thus it is 100% inspired action. Inspiraling evermore, throughout the halls of creation, to help all those who are in need, may the help of the true original source of all creation desseminate to all as power begins to expand evermore, into spirals of infinity. Expansion inward, into greater resolution of all that has ever been and will be in the evermore becoming of the evermore.

 

Wake up to your desire. And you shall succeed. Anywhere, anywhen, always, in everything.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Everything

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Everything said:

If you have no desire to help people, you will also have no desire to act and help people.

What "desireless action" means is "no personal desire". Eg: No desire for personal glory,  or making money, or accruing positive karma etc. Helping people is not a personal desire (no personal gain in it)  - at least that's how I understand it.

 

One could call it "selfless service" if one so chooses...

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by dwai

[Everything]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

What "desireless action" means is "no personal desire". Eg: No desire for personal glory,  or making money, or accruing positive karma etc. Helping people is not a personal desire (no personal gain in it)  - at least that's how I understand it.

 

 

Without personal desire, there is no personal action.

Even the desire to help unconditionally, due to the desire for unconditional love is a desire.

Pure desire, is natural, and it is good, as is humans natural nature a good nature.

 

You don't dream of a world where everyone is dying, and then wake up and say "Aaah, I'm so happy! "

 

Because the original desire is for them to not need help, to be self sufficient and powerful. 

 

But, the reason, as I said, they need help, is not because they need help. But because there is a relationship that is blocked and not allowed, that has to be re-instated, through natural karmic entanglement, that brings the original power of the helper back to the powerful desire to be helped and the powerful desire to help.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Everything

[Still_Waters]

17 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwi16_3L05ngAhXh6IMKHdFUCbcQFjAEegQICxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2F4evangiles.fr%2Fpdf%2FWilber%2F1984%20-%20Quantum%20Questions%20-%20Mystical%20writings%20of%20the%20world%27s%20greatest%20physicists.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2KUAHF_sfDiMaxipZgkH5i

 

that is the pdf link to the book that Wilber edited.

Yes I compiled 77 different quotes from physicists discussing Louis de Broglie's "Law of Phase Harmony" which he considered his most important discovery.

http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com/2018/01/summarizing-de-broglie-pilot-wave-law.html

I have blog posts on Eddie Oshins also - I did posts here as well.

So the student of de Broglie, the physicist Olivier Costa de Beauregard - I quote him on my blog - he believed in precognition, telepathy, telekinesis, etc. as being inherent to relativistic quantum physics. The thing about Schroedinger is that he removed the relativity part in order to derive his "wave function."

 

Anyway as for my "path of no path" - actually it's based on music theory. I studied music from a young age, including with a former University music professor. So the suddenly I realized that Pythagoras was correct. But as I studied this more I then realized that Daoism is also based on the same music harmonics as Pythagorean philosophy - and yet what the  West is "taught" as Pythagorean is actually NOT at all - rather that's the "cover up" of real Pythagorean philosophy! So people learn Platonic philosophy and think it is Pythagorean.

 

So in terms of being too intellectual - the problem with Wilber is  he is racist and thinks of the West as some kind of spiritual evolution - and doesn't realize the problem of the West goes back to the lies of Plato - from the wrong music theory. Anyway so this also goes into Brahmin Vedic philosphy since the symmetric math logic is from Vedic and Zoroastrian philosophy - as math professor Abraham Seidenberg details.

 

On full lotus - yes Robert Peng, qigong master, did a livestream recently on youtube, saying how when he was young he was much more flexible but now that he is older he is not as flexible. So to maintain the flexibility requires constant body training. Ramana Maharshi though relied on his helpers to take care of his body - I guess the caste system does that also with the warriors protecting the brahmin priests, etc.

 

Anyway DNA science has now proven that indeed a Brahmin "invasion" did occur - via chariots - and this can be traced via the Brahmin caste throughout INdia. It's pretty fascinating actually - and so is the denial of the science. haha. I said "Silence is Golden" I think - that is what you meant but typed "science is golden." haha.

 

As Poonjaji pointed out the "Nisargadatta" - - Nisargadatta he did not have any shakti power. The shakti is a natural expression of the "sahaja samadhi" that you refer to. This was a disagreement I had with David Godman back 15 years ago. He claims that Ramana Maharshi did not need to practice meditation anymore after his experience of Nirvikalpa samadhi at age 16. Actually Ramana had to practice meditation nonstop for 9 years - even refusing to see his own mom!! Only then did his heart stop for 15 minutes and he permanently "cut the knot" to achieve eternal liberation. So the Western Advaita scene in my opinion is full of lots of left brain ego that disregards how much meditation and the precise circumstances necessary.  This is exactly why someone like "Nisargadatta" is more popular - since he has an intellectual approach with no shakti and so it is more accessible for Westerners.

 

The multiple personality disease thing is interesting. Qigong master Yan Xin points out - in his book "Benefits of Internal Cultivation" (the title is approximate - ) - a friend of his was spending a lot of time with Yan Xin while Yan Xin was doing healing all the time, as he does. So Yan Xin had to warn the friend that he would end up absorbing the blockages that Yan Xin picked up from the healing work he did! Sure enough this is what happened. So yes qigong master Jim Nance had to heal me of the tantric blockages I had absorbed - the low frequency light holographic energy - from tantra. I could feel the Yuan Qi as a strong electrical pulsation all through  my nether region - it was a bit embarrassing. But I knew what he was doing so I didn't say anything as he did it. He told me later - how he had to heal those blockages from tantra.

 

 

While all that you wrote is quite interesting, I am sufficiently aware that I will never probe the depths of quantum physics as you have done nor to I intend to do so. My pathless path is to "Know Yourself" and to become as firmly established in the stillness as possible. Wilbur's compilation of mystical writings from the Nobel-Prize-winning quantum physicists and Capra's Tao of Physics (albeit geared more simplistically for the masses which include me in this respect) have served their purpose in convincing me that there are no significant contradictions between modern physics and eastern mysticism. Perhaps, that is all I need to know with scantier details than you felt necessary for your own unfolding.

 

Despite the typo that you noted (), I do subscribe to the theory that "Silence is Golden" and have made that inner silence a significant element in my practice.

 

It is my understanding also that Nisargadatta did not DEMONSTRATE shakti power but I do not interpret that to indicate that he had not experienced sahaja (seedless) samadhi. I recall a cute story about some one who asked Nisargadatta if he could tell the weather in New York. He responded "No" but he added that, if he wanted to do so, he could although it required special training and practice. There are some powers/siddhis that just do not command interest and it is my understanding that a sage can hold back the shakti/shaktpat at will. I have seen enough demonstrated siddhis to realize that virtually anything is possible so siddhis no longer fascinate me as they once did nor do I personally want to acquire them any longer though there was indeed interest at one time.  I have seen far too many beings who demonstrate siddhis who do not seem to be enlightened by any means and might actually be demonic in some cases. Nonetheless, seeing those who demonstrate siddhis has convinced me that virtually anything is possible. The quest for siddhis, however,  seems to be an unnecessary distraction though some may manifest naturally with no efforts whatsoever as needed. My sense of Ramana is as you stated and I too feel that he meditated years after his nirvikalpa samadhi experience at the age of 16 but obviously do not know for sure what was actually happening with Ramana at that time.

 

As for healings, I am often suspicious of those who do healings publicly for prolonged periods of time especially if they do it for money. However, as in the case of the instantaneous multiple-personality-disorder "cures" and my own NDE, I am very aware that the mind is a major component in healings. This is one area that I have researched without drawing attention to myself.

 

Thanks for your input. I am now shifting away from more detailed research into quantum physics and proceeding more with the process of "Know Yourself" and becoming firmly established in the stillness. My sense is that this is most appropriate for me at this point in time. Thanks again for your input.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Still_Waters

[Still_Waters]

On 1/31/2019 at 3:16 PM, s1va said:

In the following statements, Swami Lakshmanjoo explains the waking, dream, deep sleep states and Turiya from the Kashmir Shaivism point of view.  His views about the waking, dream and deep sleep states are consistent with my experience and with my views on Turiya.  There are states beyond the Turiya which are described as Turiyatita. Some traditions stop at the turiya level and for them awareness may be the end of the road.  The vividness of objectivity that is the characteristic of the waking state (described below as jagrat) will never become that of the sleep states (swapna and sushupti) and to claim so is a myth.  This is the gist of this entire thread.

 

"The masters of the Pratyabhijñā School say that when you remain in that state where your consciousness is directed towards objectivity (bahirvṛitti) and you are no longer in your own subjective consciousness, that state is to be known as jāgrat. When you remain only in the sphere of impressions and thoughts (saṁkalpa nirmāṇa), that state is to be known as svapna. And when there is the absolute destruction of all impressions, thoughts, and consciousness (pralayopamam), when you are absolutely dead in your own self, that state is to be known as suṣupti.

 

Abhinavagupta, the greatest master of Śaivism and the greatest philosopher the world has ever known, gives the general definition of these states so that the student will know that there is really no difference at all between the Trika Śaivite and the Pratyabhijñā points of view. He explains that when there is vividness of objectivity, that is the state of jāgrat. When the vividness of objectivity is shaky and unstable, that is svapna. When the vividness of objectivity is gone completely that is suṣupti. When super-observation is found by some observing agency, that is turya. And when that objectivity is individually dead and found full of life in totality, that is turyātīta*."

 

I weary of theory without practice.

 

What action has this triggered in your practice, and what results have you directly experienced?

 

Theory is nice but, when it does not translate into action and practice, it is no more than just intellectual talk.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Still_Waters said:

I weary of theory without practice.

 

What action has this triggered in your practice, and what results have you directly experienced?

 

Theory is nice but, when it does not translate into action and practice, it is no more than just intellectual talk.

 

I dont think Siva is simply trying to describe some theory.  As he has stated, I believe he is trying to explain his point.  The challenge for such a discussion is that he trying to describe sort of a "layer", which you and others do not acknowledge or perceive to exist.  My guess is that his quoting the master Ahbinavagupta is try to find words to describe this layer (that you do not acknowledge).

 

At a practical life level, the difference would comparing a simply quiet mind, to one that is active, but like in the Dzogchen concept of Rigpa, spontaneously perfects as stuff comes up.  So like the issues and fears actually dissolve, rather than simply being silent (while still effecting your subconscious responses).

 

To show the difference in actual joint practices, I have shared the space and then have the participants try to bring up their deepest fears and issues.  More advanced students can notice the underly energy structures break down (dissolve), while other students will just feel a lessoning of the pain/attachment to that issue or fear.

[s1va]

20 minutes ago, Still_Waters said:

I weary of theory without practice.

 

What action has this triggered in your practice, and what results have you directly experienced?

 

Theory is nice but, when it does not translate into action and practice, it is no more than just intellectual talk.

 

What is theory to one is experience to another.  Your question seems to assume it is all theory to me (and probably others also) and not experiences but just intellectual talk.  We tend to analyze others based on where we are and with our framework of understanding.  Anyone can claim they have this or that experience based on their understandings, perceptions and tell stories about it. 

 

If someone asks those questions sincerely,  what results I have directly experienced from Abhinavagupta's teaching and what have I learned, I would be more than happy to eloborately answer those questions and even share some of my experiences directly to demonstrate and show the results.  I don't sense such sincerity in this question.  I am not really inclined to convince anyone of my experiences, when they have already made up their mind about what is theory and what is direct experience (including for others!!!).

 

If it is just intellectual talk to you then that is what it is to you and I am fine with that.  If it is really wearing you out, I suggest you skip such posts.  Always our choice and good luck .

[voidisyinyang]

18 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

While all that you wrote is quite interesting, I am sufficiently aware that I will never probe the depths of quantum physics as you have done nor to I intend to do so. My pathless path is to "Know Yourself" and to become as firmly established in the stillness as possible. Wilbur's compilation of mystical writings from the Nobel-Prize-winning quantum physicists and Capra's Tao of Physics (albeit geared more simplistically for the masses which include me in this respect) have served their purpose in convincing me that there are no significant contradictions between modern physics and eastern mysticism. Perhaps, that is all I need to know with scantier details than you felt necessary for your own unfolding.

 

Well actually what you say is true but with the irony that in fact Zoroastrian and Vedic philosophy are actually the foundation of Western science! This is proven by math professor Abraham Seidenberg's essays on the "ritual origins of geometry." So when you say "eastern" - science has now proven with DNA studies that indeed there was a Brahmin "invasion" of India - via chariots. So actually the "three gunas" philosophy is like Daoism - they are an older philosophy. This "chariot" culture also invaded Western China. So modern physics and so-called "eastern" mysticism are very much alike in the sense that both rely on symmetric logic - what Ramana Maharshi calls the "I-I" that emanates out of the heart. So there is a kind of "vanishing mediator" effect when reading Ramana Maharshi - this is why Westerners do not understand him. He spoke in Tamil which is a tonal musical language - the older languages are more musical - and he did fall back on the "three gunas" philosophy. But Westerners instead project their own Platonic deep mind control onto Ramana.

 

18 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

 

Despite the typo that you noted (), I do subscribe to the theory that "Silence is Golden" and have made that inner silence a significant element in my practice.

 

It is my understanding also that Nisargadatta did not DEMONSTRATE shakti power but I do not interpret that to indicate that he had not experienced sahaja (seedless) samadhi. I recall a cute story about some one who asked Nisargadatta if he could tell the weather in New York. He responded "No" but he added that, if he wanted to do so, he could although it required special training and practice. There are some powers/siddhis that just do not command interest and it is my understanding that a sage can hold back the shakti/shaktpat at will.

 

Yes this is precisely why reading the book "Measuring Meditation" by Bill Bodri (and Master Nan, Huai-chin) - a book that critiques Ramana Maharshi. There is a paradox in what you are claiming - that a sage can "hold back" the shaktipat at will. I will give you an example. Qigong master Chunyi Lin took part in a medical healing research study but the doctor, a university professor, required the qigong master to do "fake" healings. The problem with this is that when the qigong master detects the energy blockages then he also is doing healing of the energy blockages at the same time! Why is this? Because for the Shakti energy - this is the Yuan Shen or the "light of no light" - and so the Advaita or Jnani does not experience any space or time while in the Emptiness. So this means that it is the Emptiness that does the healing and not the "will" of the Jnani. So for Ramana Maharshi he had to meditate non-stop for 9 years to achieve "eternal liberation" as a jnani - but this is not acknowledged by David Godman, the main promoter of Ramana Maharshi in the West! haha. So after physical death is transcended - then with each breath, the spirit goes beyond death. As Ramana Maharshi described - his spirit as light disappeared when his heart stopped and he just was in bliss as energy for 15 minutes with no heart beat - and then a strong shock was experienced on the right side of his heart - causing his spirit to manifest on his left side.

 

So this is the same as Daoist alchemy - the Yang Shen is the left eye as we experience physical perceptions as "external" reality through the left brain but it is the yin qi energy - while the yang qi energy goes to the right side of the heart to access the Yuan Qi beyond physical death. So this is actually based on a resonance of complementary opposites as the goal and the path of the meditation. So Ramana Maharshi argued that music mantras become just mechanical and create just a trance state while left brain logical enquiry is able to maintain Nirvikalpa Samadhi to get to the root of eternal liberal - beyond all the astral realms of the spiritual ego (with the spirit leaving the body). Indeed as Jim Nance told me - you could be a qigong master with your third eye fully open but still not have achieved the deep heart enlightenment. So he had to go on "sabbatical" to meditate nonstop to then achieve this state. But this secret of complementary opposites, as Mayahana Buddhism emphasizes, includes the body as well - and this is detailed in the Daoist alchemy training, also Kriya yoga gives the details.

 

So Ramana Maharshi had to rely on the volunteers to take of his body while it wasted away - this is the legacy of the Brahmin Vedic caste system. So you have the warrior caste, etc. The Daoists and Ch'an Buddhists relied on self-sufficient farming and charging money to do healing - and then also trained the physical bodies to fill up with the Yuan Qi energy stored in the lower tan t'ien. Ramana Maharshi - in his 1947 edition of his "Who Am I?" Book - so it's not online and most Westerners do not know about this book - Ramana clearly shows an image of the necessary kundalini energy that is first required to achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi. So as Master Nan, Huai-chin points out - unless this kundalini energy is activated so that the body channels are first open, then the real Emptiness as Nirvikalpa Samadhi can not even first be achieved. Vivekananda also clearly explains this in his series of books on yoga - Jnana Yoga is the highest level AFTER Raja or royal yoga based on full lotus padmasana.

 

 

18 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

 My sense of Ramana is as you stated and I too feel that he meditated years after his nirvikalpa samadhi experience at the age of 16 but obviously do not know for sure what was actually happening with Ramana at that time.

 

So as the book Taoist Yoga explains - you can achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the Dao - but then it can not be "stabilized" - also called "Laying the Foundation" - there has to be a very strict protocol followed to maintain celibacy and continue buidling up the energy. This requires fasting also. So this is why Ramana refused to even see his mom and he meditated non-stop. This is not appreciated by Westerners - instead people just want to "believe" based on the words, etc. The Shakti energy manifests naturally as part of the delving deeper into the Emptiness - so the Power IS the Emptiness. This is why Poonjaji experienced the Yang Shen of Ramana Maharshi and then Ramana told Poonjaji - you can't see God. haha. Similarly in Daoist alchemy - the Yang Shen "vaporizes" just as the physical body also "vaporizes" - it goes back to the Fa Shen which is the boundless body of Yuan Qi or the "Ether-Knowledge" as Jnana - the OM-power of the light.

 

18 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

As for healings, I am often suspicious of those who do healings publicly for prolonged periods of time especially if they do it for money. However, as in the case of the instantaneous multiple-personality-disorder "cures" and my own NDE, I am very aware that the mind is a major component in healings. This is one area that I have researched without drawing attention to myself.

 

Thanks for your input. I am now shifting away from more detailed research into quantum physics and proceeding more with the process of "Know Yourself" and becoming firmly established in the stillness. My sense is that this is most appropriate for me at this point in time. Thanks again for your input.

 

Yes so it's only necessary to understand complementary opposites. So the original human culture achieved all of this - the San Bushmen - and the training spread around the world. The deep right side vagus nerve - the dorsal vagus nerve - activates and stores up the kundalini energy. So this goes to the right side of the heart - as the "secret" pinhole - the direct path that Ramana Maharshi emphasized. This is also the secret discussed in the Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality book. So there is an eternal process of complementary opposites energy that flows as future time and past time - and the Yuan Shen is at the speed of light that is turned around. So for the Jnani - with the light turned around - there is a Zero/Infinite rest frame but since light has no rest mass, there is still a "heavy" light as relativistic mass also called the "noncommutative spacetime" source of the light. So this has to include relativity as much as quantum physics. So this is why qigong master Zhang Hongbao called this secret from Einstein as the Golden Key as superluminal matter - "the golden key" - is superluminal yin matter. So Master Zhang realized that Einstein relativity just had to be expanded. In fact Einstein was proven wrong - he couldn't believe in what he had called "ghost fields." haha. There is indeed this non-local field - also called the Phononic Field - or Mouna Samadhi.

 

 

18 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

 

 

 

 

[Still_Waters]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I dont think Siva is simply trying to describe some theory.  As he has stated, I believe he is trying to explain his point.  The challenge for such a discussion is that he trying to describe sort of a "layer", which you and others do not acknowledge or perceive to exist.  My guess is that his quoting the master Ahbinavagupta is try to find words to describe this layer (that you do not acknowledge).

 

At a practical life level, the difference would comparing a simply quiet mind, to one that is active, but like in the Dzogchen concept of Rigpa, spontaneously perfects as stuff comes up.  So like the issues and fears actually dissolve, rather than simply being silent (while still effecting your subconscious responses).

 

To show the difference in actual joint practices, I have shared the space and then have the participants try to bring up their deepest fears and issues.  More advanced students can notice the underly energy structures break down (dissolve), while other students will just feel a lessoning of the pain/attachment to that issue or fear.

Keep in mind that Siva started this thread about "The Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" which has been questioned by several practitioners here, including myself. That practice is common to several traditions, so the subject of that thread caught me (and apparently others) by surprise. When someone speaks that authoritatively and NEGATIVELY  on a subject on which they seem to know little, it makes one question their credibility when they say "I know this as a fact" in reference to other things. The absence of any statement regarding practice, results, validation of theories, etc. makes one even more suspicious. As I said before, I weary of theory when no specifics are given regarding practice, results, and ways to validate the presented theory.

 

Regarding Dzogchen's concept of spontaneously perfecting as stuff comes up, it is obvious that, as "stuff comes up", one can deal with it and get rid of it. The same phenomenon happens in conscious sleep and in other meditative methodologies as well. That is somewhat obvious and requires no further discussion.

 

Now, let's shift to the practice that you introduced.  Having participants bring up their deepest fears and issues is cool but, having a postgraduate degree in clinical social work which included an internship as a therapist, I'm not convinced that this is a more effective practice than the conscious sleep practice discussed in this thread. It is, of course, simpler and easier. In conscious sleep, as dreams occur, the unconscious as well as the conscious presents itself quite effectively in the sequence most conducive to addressing the underlying tendencies/urges brought to one's attention. I'm not even sure that the practice you indicated is more effective than the simple meditative practice I directly observed with kids as young as 8 or 9 years old at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master in Gyungju, South Korea. However, that is a subject for another time. In any case, you've at least introduced something in the way of practice and that is appreciated.

 

Regarding the post of Siva's to which I responded, it was very disappointing especially in light of the subject he presented for consideration in this thread. The thread, however, turned out to be great despite the original post.

 

Lastly, while intellectual masturbation is intellectually stimulating, theories are most assuredly no substitute for practice, discussion of practice results, and methodologies for verifying the theories that are presented as "facts" albeit with no substantiating additional info. While I read such posts from time to time and they occasionally spark some interest, I am far more interested in statements that trigger action in some way related to practice.

[steve]

21 hours ago, dwai said:

What "desireless action" means is "no personal desire". Eg: No desire for personal glory,  or making money, or accruing positive karma etc. Helping people is not a personal desire (no personal gain in it)  - at least that's how I understand it.

 

One could call it "selfless service" if one so chooses...

 

 

With deep practice and insight there is the possibility of charitable action with no "self" or desire engaged.

This is a manifestation of fairly advanced practice and/or realization.

Most charity is not quite so selfless...

 

 

THE MASQUERADE OF CHARITY

"Charity is really self-interest masquerading under the form of altruism. You say that it is very difficult to accept that there may be times when you are not honest to goodness really trying to be loving or trustful. Let me simplify it. Let’s make it as simple as possible. Let’s even make it as blunt and extreme as possible, at least to begin with. There are two types of selfishness. The first type is the one where I give myself the pleasure of pleasing myself. That’s what we generally call self-centeredness. The second is when I give myself the pleasure of pleasing others. That would be a more refined kind of selfishness.The first one is very obvious, but the second one is hidden, very hidden, and for that reason more dangerous, because we get to feel that we’re really great. But maybe we’re not all that great after all. You protest when I say that. That’s great!"
Anthony deMello.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

With deep practice and insight there is the possibility of charitable action with no "self" or desire engaged.

This is a manifestation of fairly advanced practice and/or realization.

Most charity is not quite so selfless...

 

In the Hindu context, the concept of Karma yoga exists precisely to cultivate selfless service. 

 

[Spotless]

Last night I was listening to some beautiful music. My wife asked me a question - it was about 4am - I responded immediately fully awake. 

 

She then informed me I was snoring - I said “just now when you asked your question?” She said yes - “snoring loudly”.

 

 

[dawei]

3 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

Now, let's shift to the practice that you introduced.  Having participants bring up their deepest fears and issues is cool but, having a postgraduate degree in clinical social work which included an internship as a therapist, I'm not convinced that this is a more effective practice than the conscious sleep practice discussed in this thread. It is, of course, simpler and easier. In conscious sleep, as dreams occur, the unconscious as well as the conscious presents itself quite effectively in the sequence most conducive to addressing the underlying tendencies/urges brought to one's attention. I'm not even sure that the practice you indicated is more effective than the simple meditative practice I directly observed with kids as young as 8 or 9 years old at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master in Gyungju, South Korea. However, that is a subject for another time. In any case, you've at least introduced something in the way of practice and that is appreciated.

 

Maybe Jeff can start a topic on it as a few here have done it.  Then we could copy your comments as I found it interesting to comment on but don't want to drift this topic.  thanks. 

[steve]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

In the Hindu context, the concept of Karma yoga exists precisely to cultivate selfless service. 

 

 

Yes...

I intentionally quoted a Hindu (who later became a Jesuit and a psychologist - a brilliant and realized master).