Kubba

Suicides of Mooji’s and Benthino Massaro's followers

Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Oh my stars!

 

Wow, it's like a message from a distant generation ... how old are you ?

Lovely to hear actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

In Red Tantric traditions sexual relations between Chelas and Gurus or even between practitioners is very common.

 

Is this really true, or is this a rumor that was spread by the newage crowd when they weren't fully informed of what tantra was?

Are there legitimate sources for this idea (specifically about sex between gurus and chelas being an acceptable thing in a certain variety of tantra)?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

HWL Poonja (Poonjaji) is the beginning of the degeneration.  He had been at the Ramana ashram with Ramana, but due to the fact that he had a Western white glamours sexy wife to support he left the ashram and began giving Satsangs to the Western hippie crowd and began the degeneration into Western theatre Advaita drugs the Beatles and sex.   And this dancing theatre continues to this day, degenerating generation by generation.

 

Ramana himself was highly realised but from what I understand he had some mystical defilements in his attainment which you can see in photos, his eyes are a little bit too wild and not settled.   Yogis traditionally did a lot of drugs and ended up in quite wild unnatural states mixed with their realisations.

 

Advaita had been a very serious tradition, and I particularly like NIsargadatta's teaching and his life and his path, if you read about it.  It was simply direct rapid and pure, and involved hard intensive work for a period of years.   And you can also read about his teacher.

 

Our whole society makes a big deal about who they do or don't have sex with.   I just don't care.   If you walk into the world with your pants down and your legs open what do you expect.   And besides, the seagulls have sex on the roof every day and don't care either.

 

This "absolute trust" in the guru ... represents a rather low and childish state of both seeker and guru.   They are quite far from the path, both of them.   Anyway, better not to worry about, lick your wounds and try and make progress.

 

It is better to try to an meditate quietly every day, and settle in to a pattern of deepening your path, rather than throwing yourself at the mercy of others. 

 

We all walk this path together, and god does love you, remember that, you were made for a reason and the truth is always within you.

 

 

So you have not read David Godman's memoir of Poonjaji, "NOthing Ever Happens"? All three volumes.

 

Westerners like Nisargadatta since he didn't have any real shakti power. He "talked the talk" but he did not walk the talk. So that fits easily with the Western delusion.

 

Poonjaji complained how Westerners came to his ashram and the young males and females just shacked up for sex.

 

The whole problem with Ramana is Westerners had no idea of the context of the Brahmin Caste society. So for example it's mentioned in that new documentary on Ramana how his grandson always wanted to sit on the Western lady's lap - and all the Indians were aghast at this behavior since Westerners were considered to be polluted.

 

Now in fact in traditional Brahmin priest society - the rule is that even EYE contact with a female requires 3 days of purification. Obviously this is way beyond even for a Westerner to imagine! Ramana even refused to see his mom while he was doing his non-stop 9 years of Nirvikalpa  Samadhi.

 

So obviously once his heart stopped for 15 minutes and he finally "cut the knot" and he achieved "eternal liberation" - then - he as beyond all normal rules of society.

 

But Ramana did emanate real shakti. I know this personally as when I grabbed onto the 1947 edition book of "Who Am I?" at the South ASian library at University of Minnesota - the Ames South Asian library - I personally got a Shakti vibration sensation.

 

This is the SAME shakti or Yuan Qi vibration I have felt from qigong master Jim Nance of http://guidingqi.com

 

So Poonjaji pointed out that Nisargadatta knew the philosophy but he didn't have any shakti. If a person achieves eternal liberation they're going to have shakti simply by the fact that with each breath their mind as spirit goes beyond death via the right side vagus nerve.

 

So we need to realize that Ramana was raised in a Brahmin family but he was Tamil and the Tamil culture and language is Dravidian - not Brahmin. DNA science has now definitely proven that the Brahmins indeed "invaded" India.

 

So in fact Ramana talks of the "three in one unity" of the gunas. So this is actually the oldest philosophy of India - the three gunas is from music theory just as in Daoism the Yang is the perfect fifth, the yin is the perfect fourth and the Emptiness is the octave.

 

So this is secretly a philosophy of complementary opposites. So the Brahmin philosphy in contrast is based on Symmetric logic - the same symmetric logic that created the Greek Miracle of Western science. Brahmin philosophy is actually the foundation of Western science (along with Zoroastrian philosophy).

 

For example to center the Chariot wheel requires a "divide and average" proof that is the foundation of the Pythagorean Theorem - going back to around 3000 BCE. This is documented by math professor Abraham Seidenberg on the ritual origins of Geometry.

 

So the problem is, like with Gurdjieff, Westerners are projecting their deeply held mass mind control symmetric logic onto Ramana - and this is very easy to do since Ramana himself was relying on the same problematic Brahmin symmetric logic - stating that his "I-I" emanated from his heart.

 

So the paradox is - how could Ramana maintain his individual soul while also being a Jnana with eternal liberation? What is said or claimed is that once the "Knot is cut" that ties the spirit to the body - then a Jnani can no longer accumulate Karma. And this is a very convenient philosophy indeed is it not? And so what you have is a "reversal" whereby infinity is "contained" inside the body of the Jnani - as a left-brain dominant logical inference that enables a right-hand dominant ritual of geometry.

 

So the Jnani represents the core foundation of the Brahmin philosophy. But the irony being that Ramana secretly was teaching Tamil philosophy and the Westerners could not pick this up. So for example Ramana says to repeat I-I-I-I as the start of the practice - not as a mantra but as logical inference or Vichara. To listen to the source of the I-thought. But then Ramana states to visualize light on the right side of the heart.

 

In the 1947 book - Ramana clearly explains that the Kundalini has to first rise up the spine and then down to the heart. This is actually the right side vagus nerve energy that goes to the right side of the heart. Daoism also explains that the Yuan Qi originates on the right side of the heart.

 

So Westerners are completely deluded about what Ramana's teaching was really about. For example Vivekananda explains in his series of books on Yoga that Jnana Yoga is by far the most difficult yoga - just using the mind on its own.

 

So  Ramana assumes a Brahmin stricture of not even seeing his own mom - just constant meditation in silence with his eyes closed. He does that non-stop for 9 years. Ramana also assumes a vegetarian diet and then also he practices an ascetic starvation diet of just a spoonful of food a day.

 

The Westerners ignore all of this. And yet as Bill Bodri's book (with Master Nan, Huai-jin's insights) - the book on Meditation - his huge tome - explains - the philosophy of Ramana Maharshi stops at "emptying out the 7th level of consciousness" - this is the equivalent of an Arhat in Buddhism. It is NOT Mahayana Buddhism that also pursues the emptying out of the body consciousness as well - the first 5 levels. And so because of this Ramana was dependent on his followers to take care of his physical body as it wasted away - but then since his background was the Brahmin caste system, that system was set up to rely on such dependence.

 

So this is why Westerners love the advaita vedanta philosophy - it is actually the core foundation of Western logic itself. Ramana Maharshi though, if you study him very seriously, revealed he knew about the deeper Tamil philosophy of tonal nonwestern harmonics as the "three in one unity" that he refers to, the three gunas of no guna, as it is also called. This is the Taiji of Daoism as well.

 

All the Advaita Vedanta followers are completely oblivious of this - why? Because they are too caught up in their self-aggrandizing praise of having "discovered" their own sacred roots of the Brahmin Solar Dynasty imperial chariot caste system that is really a culture of mass ritual sacrifice. Yes it is very powerful and spread around the world but it has destroyed ecology - just as India today has a legacy of destruction from the Brahmins to the  Muslims to the British to the now US dominance.

 

Was there always a secret nonwestern music mysticism in the background? Yes of course and it is still strong in India despite all the colonialism - just as Maoism and Japanese imperialism and now Western Christianity has almost destroyed Daoism in China...

buddhism was a reform religion just as Christianity was an attempt at reform - but both were quickly assimilated back into the religion of technology that Sri Vivekananda called the "Exterior Path" (as he  was a Freemason and Sri Aurobindo then took over Vivekananda's Freemasonic path). Aurobindo then was assimilated into the UN-Theosophy plan.

 

So it's kind of difficult to escape the influence of Western philosophy in India - especially if you're a Westerner seeking for something you think is different but it actually just a subconscious projection of a need for a comfort blanket. The work of Dr. Vandana Shiva is good on this - also the book "Karma Cola" is an example foray into this irony.

Edited by voidisyinyang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Aetheros. 

 

You will I’ll never see me delve into what used to be called new age I consider it Hippie Fodder. I would have thought that stuff was old age and died out by now?

 

You can find books Tantra  but I rely on people from India I have known.

 

You can find reference to it in Tibetan Buddhist literature. It is referenced in different books concerning the six yogas of Naropa  and a common term is yab yum.

 

Tilopa from India was the guru of Naropa he was taught by female tantrics later these practices found there way to Tibet.

 

Male dominated societies took the power or attempted to take the power of women. Tantra.

 

What hardly anyone comprehends is Tantra is controlled by the female not the perverted priest sex propagated against young girls. 

 

There are texts describing the perfect kind of Yoni. In research years ago while involved with a female Tantric learned the opposite also held true with descriptions of the lingham and what was most desirable.

 

White Tantra would be practices like Kriya Yoga.

 

Red Tantra has all the energetic components of Kriya but instead of unity found by oneself it is found with a partner of the opposite sex marrying the aspects of Male and Female in blissful participation.

 

There are 3 essential levels.

 

The practice with a physical consort is considered basic, the practice with visualization better. The practice where the quasi energetic non human incarnate non corporeal consort appears on her own best of all.

 

Tantra emphasises bliss taken to extreme levels weather it is white or red. Tantra is a vehicle used to take one beyond.

 

It has also been misused and used to draw others into relationships with promises of teaching but the education one gets may be far different than what one hopes for.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

Poonjaji

 

Jesus you are complicated.   Is it possible for you to write something without quoting a zillion different pieces of rubbish?

 

Ramana when he arrived in Tiru had nothing and lived in a a tiny cell covered in rats until a fellow seeker took care of him.   So I don't know that the f you are talking about cast rules.  He was simply a penniless child living in a temple in solitude half starving.

 

HWL Poonja speaking to Ramana decided that he need to make some cash to support his hippie white wife.   He did satsang for white westerner idiots to make money.   Thus began the degeneration of Advaita.

 

Nisargadatta had one guru.   He went to work  in the daytime in his shop, then went home and sat in meditation / contemplation for 3 or 4 hours at night, and after 2 years achieved realisation.   He was very pure and very direct.

 

Later he taught people from his shop whilst selling cigarettes.   Few have come close to him.

 

I don't what the f you are talking about yuang qi shakti kundalini and the hippie acid heads.

 

Advaita is a sword to cut down this sh**.

--------------------------------------

Here's a direct quote from Ramana that shows your obsession with kundalini shakti energies is meaningless and not his path:

Question : How to churn up the nadis [psychic nerves] so that the kundalini may go up the sushumna?
Ramana Maharshi : Though the yogi may have his methods of breath control for this object, the jnani's method is only that of enquiry. When by this method the mind is merged in the Self, the shakti or kundalini, which is not apart from the Self, rises automatically.

 

 

 

Edited by rideforever
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Oh my stars!

 

What's been said is that guru's shouldn't have sex with their students, and this is due to the perceived power dynamic. 

 

If a guru married or had a long term committed relationship with a student then what would be the 'power dynamic'.????

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

You can find books Tantra  but I rely on people from India I have known.

 

I've also asked an Indian friend about this, who is a tantric...waiting to hear back.

While I know that sex is a component of some types of tantra, this is the first I've heard that it was meant to be between guru and chela.

I know there are some extreme sects, like the Aghori of India, where they do some of the most taboo and disgusting things...I suppose as a means of attempting to be liberated from societal norms. Maybe a similar sect advocates for the guru to have sex with the chela. Or maybe even they would consider such an act to be beneath them.

Edited by Aetherous

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

I've also asked an Indian friend about this, who is a tantric...waiting to hear back.

While I know that sex is a component of some types of tantra, this is the first I've heard that it was meant to be between guru and chela.

I know there are some extreme sects, like the Aghori of India, where they do some of the most taboo and disgusting things...I suppose as a means of attempting to be liberated from societal norms. Maybe a similar sect advocates for the guru to have sex with the chela. Or maybe even they would consider such an act to be beneath them.

 

Some Tantric masters take consorts.  But that is not, in my view, the same as indiscriminatingly shagging your students.  

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Jesus you are complicated.   Is it possible for you to write something without quoting a zillion different pieces of rubbish?

 

....

 

 

 

I assume this was a rhetorical question.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rideforever said:

  So I don't know that the f you are talking about cast rules.  He was simply a penniless child living in a temple in solitude half starving.

 

Yes you are in Denial - you don't know because you don't WANT to know! That's why I posted the information I did. It's NEW to you.

Now then - let's assume you   "want" to know more. Like an "inquiring mind"?  We can just search this for more details. Shall we? I think we shall....

 

 

Quote

 

 

Ramana Maharshi - Wikipedia

 

 

Ramana Maharshi /ˈrʌmənə məhʌˈrɪʃi/ (30 December 1879 – 14 April 1950) was a Hindu ... He was the second of four children in an orthodox Hindu Brahmin family.

 

 

Oops - there goes your "simply a penniless child" claim.

As I stated Ramana refused to see even his own mom! Complicated? Yes....

Quote

 

It is admittedly the Samadhi of a Hindu Brahmin widow viz., the mother of Sri Ramana Maharshi. It is elementary that a South Indian Hindu brahmin widow is not entitled to Sanyasam. If support is required see Ex. A 28 and the deposition of P.W. 6.

 

If that lady who was the Baktha of her own son was not entitled to Sanyasam, she is certainly not entitled to Samadhi, since our Hindu Sastras require that she should be cremated.

 

http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2011/07/curious-court-case.html

You seem to think that refusing to see your own mom is just the act of a "child living in a temple solitude half starving." haha.

Quote

That lady was a widow when her son wanted to become at very early age a Sanyasi and she would not give her consent which was necessary before a Brahmin can become a Sanyasi repudiating his obligations.

Ah but how the Brahmin caste society does complicate things doesn't it?

Quote

However, I will say that the two judges do appear to have derived their conclusion from the erroneous starting point that Bhagavan’s mother was merely a ‘brahmin widow’ and not a fully enlightened jnani.

Let us consider the sequence of events from the point of view of Bhagavan and his devotees. Bhagavan is accepted as a jnani by his devotees, and when his mother passed away he declared that she too had attained this rare and final state. He asked that she be buried in a way that is reserved for Saiva saints, in a specially constructed tomb whose specifications are laid out in a chapter of the Tirumandiram. Since she was not a sannyasin, this in itself indicated that she was not merely a brahmin widow.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

If a guru married or had a long term committed relationship with a student then what would be the 'power dynamic'.????

 

 

 

Teachers and professors aren't supposed to have sexual relations with students, and bosses aren't supposed to have sex with employees. These are cultural mores.

 

Guards aren't supposed to have relations with inmates, government officials aren't supposed to have relations with interns, and priests aren't supposed to have relations with their congregation members. 

 

As a more, this is widely held, and applies to just about anyone in a position of power and/or authority. 

 

So what are you trying to get at with your question with many question marks? Gray areas? Or something else?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Teachers and professors aren't supposed to have sexual relations with students, and bosses aren't supposed to have sex with employees. These are cultural mores.

 

Guards aren't supposed to have relations with inmates, government officials aren't supposed to have relations with interns, and priests aren't supposed to have relations with their congregation members. 

 

As a more, this is widely held, and applies to just about anyone in a position of power and/or authority. 

 

So what are you trying to get at with your question with many question marks? Gray areas? Or something else?

 

What is the power dynamic in a marriage after all?  Who knows and who knows that it is a negative thing?

 

Many great Tibetan Lamas were married - Marpa for instance - they were not all monks.  And most also taught their wives dharma.  There is no prohibition against this - provided the Lama is not a monk of course.  So they were in a dual role of master and husband.  Clearly for some it is 'manageable'.

 

My point is that you have to distinguish between this and a 'guru' who has sex with many students just because he can or wants to.  And there has to be test as to if harm is caused.  

 

To analyse situations into 'power dynamics' is, I think, a dubious strategy - abuse of power is one thing - but actual power is something which changes from hand to hand with time.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My view is that the larger a group gets, the more issues will happen. I would think any true spiritual teacher would not let his flock grow to a point where said teacher were unable to monitor the progress of his students.  

 

At the point where the group gets too large, teacher should start making his advanced students leaders and teachers. If there’s no students that are able to teach - then it might be time to seek your answers elsewhere. 

 

Jesus was healing the sick and blind, yet his group stayed under 20 people. You have to wonder when you see big groups - if your well being is really so important to the teacher. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can Mooji even sit padmasana and for how long? Remember Jnana Yoga is the highest level of yoga - meaning it does not START until Nirvikalpa Samadhi is achieved. Nirvikalpa samadhi is called "immortal breathing" in DAoism - meaning your body is full of qi and the Yuan Qi is activated - so your whole body is pulsating with qi; The bones become limber at this stage - the top of the skull even gets soft. So you can definitely sit in padmasana as long as you want, in ease.

 

Qigong master Chunyi Lin says if you want to know if someone is a real spiritual teacher just see how long they can sit in full lotus in ease.

 

Simple! None of this "Brahmin Jnani" b.s. about only other Jnanis can "know" and know shakti needs to be demonstrated and just follow the Jnani or whatever.

Quote

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: StartingOver
Date: March 31, 2018 07:25PM

I was a long time supporter of mooji and spent quite a bit of time at Sahaja. As someone who was very close to Mooji and the Sangha I can tell you that sahaja is actaully wiretapped to record and monitor phone calls and conversations on the land.

Mooji has spies there and uses them to give him info on those visiting which he uses to pretend that he knows what they are thinking. His old security who spent years with him is terrified of him.

I recently has a conversation with him and really felt bad for the guy. It seems Mooji really screwed up this guys life.There is definitely a cult around him. I left him with my dignity barely in tact but I am very greatful I was able to escape as many are still there and not so fortunate. I really feel bad for alot of the people I know there as they think he is some God. Little do they know he is tricking them and using there vulnerabilty as a means of entrance into their minds. something has to be done to stop him. There is a documentary on Netfilx about the osho scandal, oddly enough spme of those people who were with Osho are now with Mooji. Really fucking scary.

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,135827,page=54

Taking after Osho?

Quote

There are scattered references on the Chi-Ting Apocalpse blog to Moo having bodyguards.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

What is the power dynamic in a marriage after all?  Who knows and who knows that it is a negative thing?

 

Many great Tibetan Lamas were married - Marpa for instance - they were not all monks.  And most also taught their wives dharma.  There is no prohibition against this - provided the Lama is not a monk of course.  So they were in a dual role of master and husband.  Clearly for some it is 'manageable'.

 

Interesting, as my point was that the issue wasn't about expectations of celibacy. 

 

18 minutes ago, Apech said:

My point is that you have to distinguish between this and a 'guru' who has sex with many students just because he can or wants to.  And there has to be test as to if harm is caused.  

 

I agree, there should be distinction made between loving committed relationships and sexually predatory behavior. 

 

18 minutes ago, Apech said:

To analyse situations into 'power dynamics' is, I think, a dubious strategy - abuse of power is one thing - but actual power is something which changes from hand to hand with time.  

 

You're referring to natural dynamics of healthy interpersonal relationships, and I am referring to abuse of power which is dependent upon there being someone in a  (perceived/believed/actual) position of authority and/or power. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If a guru married or had a long term committed relationship with a student then what would be the 'power dynamic'.????

 

 

In the case of Lahiri Mahasaya it was a bit different. Lahiri Baba was the one to codify Kriya for the householders. His Guru known only as Babaji taught 108 different practices.

 

Lahiri Baba being a reincarnated yogi of this one he named Babaji was already a married man.

 

Upon meeting this otherworldly ascetic and having his memory restored he wanted nothing more of the world of man.

 

He begged to be released from being a householder and longed to return to the far reaches of the Himalayas with his Guru.

 

His Guru said No!

 

He was to return to family life. There were a few more discussions and eventually Lahiri asked he be allowed to teach others his gurus practices as the average householder had no chance of a better life  just work, family obligation and internment without any degree of realization, which even  slight amount can be a balm to the world.

 

His Guru essentially said fine, if you want to help so bad then it is on you, take my 108 practices and distill what householder can perform realistically. 

 

Lahiri Baba did.

 

He broke the 108 into the most essential.

 

Maha Mudra

 

Yoni Mudra

 

Kriya Pranayam

 

Navi Mudra

 

and Kechari Mudra without which one was ineligible for Higher practices.

 

Lahiri called these Kriya yoga. Which means action of the soul.

 

Lahiri after being granted his full memory of his past lives as a Himilain Yogi. Changed from the man his wife once knew.

 

In time she came to realize after many phenomenal experiences made it clear her husband was not just an ordinary man.  

 

One such incident she would retell years later was finding her husband not only meditating at the foot of their bed eschewing sleep as was his habit, but levitating with a host of angels conversing with him.

 

In short order his wife asked for his initiation into Kriya Yoga. She became his disciple or Chela and they remained husband and wife until the day he left the body. Committed, Loving, Caring adult relationship.

 

I learned from their great grandson Shibendu his Great Grandfather was still the loving servant to his wife. She would put together the grocery list and he half drunk with Paravastha State of Kriya lovingly went to the market and purchased what his wife desired.

 

In the West we are very confused. The enlightened Guru was the servant to his wife. 

 

Consider this.

 

I do.

Edited by Pilgrim
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Interesting, as my point was that the issue wasn't about expectations of celibacy. 

 

 

I agree, there should be distinction made between loving committed relationships and sexually predatory behavior. 

 

 

You're referring to natural dynamics of healthy interpersonal relationships, and I am referring to abuse of power which is dependent upon there being someone in a  (perceived/believed/actual) position of authority and/or power. 

 

 

This is a difficult and complex subject - which has been confused by the way in which certain teachings involving guru yoga and so on, have been propagated both in the west and in India/Tibet etc.  There is a big difference between the role of teacher as an instructor and guide - as in the common mahayana (and presumably in Yoga and Vedanta) and the lama/guru student relationship.  The latter should be strictly one to one and private - while the former is public and open, and for which the same sort of rules which apply to say, a university professor and student may apply.

 

The instructions in Vajrayana for the lama/student code of behaviour specifically prohibit public displays of devotion such as prostrations to the lama and more importantly tell the student that if they are requested to do something which is un-dharmic such as sexual misconduct they should politely refuse.  But not many people are told this and so there is ground for abuse - which has happened in many cases.  There are specific texts of guidance for this in Vajrayana known commonly as the '50 verses'.

 

In more loose teaching environments, especially ones which centre round a charismatic teacher no such rules exist - and there are many people who are emotionally damaged and open to abuse, as well as possibly a free and easy approach to moral standards - which lead to a lot of potential harm.  I would say that it is unlikely in these cases that any real teaching is going on - although some may find some kind of release from their own particular hang ups and problems temporarily.  Most people need instructions on how they themselves can get their lives sorted and become happier and more fulfilled.  That's what they should be doing and not following anybody - let alone a guru.

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

I've also asked an Indian friend about this, who is a tantric...waiting to hear back.

While I know that sex is a component of some types of tantra, this is the first I've heard that it was meant to be between guru and chela.

I know there are some extreme sects, like the Aghori of India, where they do some of the most taboo and disgusting things...I suppose as a means of attempting to be liberated from societal norms. Maybe a similar sect advocates for the guru to have sex with the chela. Or maybe even they would consider such an act to be beneath them.

Those sects are likely practicing Black Tantra. It is horrible and I hesitate to even mention it.

 

If a Guru be a true Guru one who dispels the darkness of ignorance with the light of wisdom then all is well.

 

I think the true ones are pretty rare.

 

In Tantra,  Red Tantra I think it more likely the female to be the Guru not the male.

 

Either way it is a very mature relationship and practice. It has to be otherwise the perils are as plain as 1+1= 2

 

The practice envolves blending ones very being on not only an physical level but an energetic one, both become vessels for the divine Shakti and Shiva loosing ones dharma ridden ego shell and blending in primordial existence.  

 

Like so many things, the action unbelievably begets the result.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Red Tantra not an invention of Westerners? I have not read all the scriptures but never seen distinction between red, white, black etc. Sexual practices are only small part of tantric texts. Take a look at Kularnave Tantra, there is almost none of this there, and for sure there is nothing like sex with disciples. 

 

On the other hand, some tantric texts describe ways of transmission, of which some are spitting into disciples mouth, ejaculating into disciples body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never read anything or heard any teaching of either Mooji or Eckhart Toole that is not completely of the highest sort. 

 

Both are masters in pointing and staying on topic with respect to Awakening.

 

I know nothing of B. Messaro and it is immediately obvious that UnSpirituality  is far from clear in his understanding of any of this - his is a concoction of assumptions and partial information mixed with dogma, hoopla and what appears to be Christian cult programming.

 

Retreats have intense levels of increased energy for many - and I know that Mooji and others screen attendee’s for mental health issues and other things - but people can lie all they want or simply omit certain things.

 

Some people are also bringing with them drugs and other “plant spirit based” drugs/medicine/hyper space 

inducing substances.

 

Most are within the bounds of handling it and many are very clear in the highest of traditional pursuit practice - abstaining from stimulants, drugs, weed, alcohol, possibly or not sex, meat, strong emotional outburst, and mindful of running dialogs and inner and outer chatter.

 

Unlike centuries past - today many are Awakening at these seminars and retreats - sometimes 2 or 3 - which is absolutely enormous when it might have been 1 - 5 in a decade with a teacher in the past.

 

Expectation - easy trips to the Amazon and the incredible spiritual competition within such settings that often sets up - it would come as no surprise that a suicide would take place.

 

It is not uncommon for people of many different groups in such seminars to have severe problems as a result of hyper practice and energetic forcing.

 

Frequently people end up in the psych ward - many here have experienced this and some have contributed regularly from their recovery beds in such places. 

 

One hour here in these blogs and one will wince at many of the unbridled and naive responses - and from this it is easy - very easy - to see the considerable lack of control a teacher has over what is in the minds and inertia’s within some of the students.

 

If you have your wits about you - you have nothing to worry about - but you already knew that.

 

In trance teachings one can easily get swept up into a loss of common sense - and any teaching that sets itself up as teaching “the one true god” or teaching that you are special is a setup for total programming.

 

There is nothing in the path of confronting one’s illusions that is a cake walk - yet its dissolution is always at hand.

 

In youth extreme thinking and extreme action are like candy during Halloween - it’s just sitting around all over.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to point something out.

 

There is talk of predatory behaviour amongs spiritual teachers. Actually I think it’s something much more commonplace and boring.

 

With any increase in jing, qi or shen, there’s always an increase in the projection of the darker, untransformed aspects of self.

 

(And actually you don’t need spiritual practices for this. Just being in a position of power naturally increases jing/qi/shen.)

 

Imagine having a torch (flashlight) that’s a little dirty. The bit of light that does shine through is a little dimmer and distorted by the dirt - the light is dim yes, but the shadows are also hazy. But imagine increasing the power of the bulb by many hundreds of times... now those bits of dirt take on a sharper more distinct form.

 

Thats why it’s so common for gurus (or even lay people with a bit of power) to seek to liv out their base desires (for power and sex). 

 

Im sure that in many cases these teachers start out with benevolent aims... it’s just these aspects of ourselves, powered by the increase in energy insidiously subvert our minds. Often unnoticeably. 

 

This is why in most long-standing classical traditions the bar for teaching was set so high. You can’t be a spiritual teacher just coz you feel that way. There’s a whole host of inner transformations to go through that are tested and verified by peers before one can teach any students.

 

Sadly in the new age all of this is forgotten - because ‘everything is an illusion’ and ‘youre already enlightened’ and that ‘you should follow your heart’ etc etc.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, freeform said:

I want to point something out.

 

There is talk of predatory behaviour amongs spiritual teachers. Actually I think it’s something much more commonplace and boring.

 

With any increase in jing, qi or shen, there’s always an increase in the projection of the darker, untransformed aspects of self.

 

(And actually you don’t need spiritual practices for this. Just being in a position of power naturally increases jing/qi/shen.)

 

Imagine having a torch (flashlight) that’s a little dirty. The bit of light that does shine through is a little dimmer and distorted by the dirt - the light is dim yes, but the shadows are also hazy. But imagine increasing the power of the bulb by many hundreds of times... now those bits of dirt take on a sharper more distinct form.

 

Thats why it’s so common for gurus (or even lay people with a bit of power) to seek to liv out their base desires (for power and sex). 

 

Im sure that in many cases these teachers start out with benevolent aims... it’s just these aspects of ourselves, powered by the increase in energy insidiously subvert our minds. Often unnoticeably. 

 

This is why in most long-standing classical traditions the bar for teaching was set so high. You can’t be a spiritual teacher just coz you feel that way. There’s a whole host of inner transformations to go through that are tested and verified by peers before one can teach any students.

 

Sadly in the new age all of this is forgotten - because ‘everything is an illusion’ and ‘youre already enlightened’ and that ‘you should follow your heart’ etc etc.

 

Interresting than generally in such discussins blame goes on the Teacher. Noone speaks of students abusing the Teacher and the wrongdoing might be equal.

 

noone knows if the girl who was blackmailing Mooji was telling true in her comments under that clip on youtube. It is known that unsatisfied students who left in some cases start to blackmail the teacher, inventing storries of abuse, because that’s the easiest way to turn people against him. I would not say that if I have not seen it.

 

we tend to see undeveloped teachers but I’m yet to find students that are not ready to be students. As often students have fore some reason more credits to do wrong than teachers.

Edited by Kubba
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A good question might be....

 

As long as whatever is done is done by two consenting adult’s where in lies any wrong doing at all? 

 

In my opinion If a person taking the position of teacher or guru and fails to deliver and deceives for sexual gratification then there is a wrongdoing otherwise ......

 

Sex happens no point in being all hung up over it.

 

If you are in a committed relationship with a person and have sex outside of that relationship with another I think you will cause yourself more problems than it is worth and loose your partner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who can a spiritual teacher have sex with, if not those close to him.   They are like a tribe exploring a strange private land together, it is natural that their sexual needs are found in this company.   What should they do, go internet dating with those in the market place ?
The problem is not with sex, but with insincere teachers, and insincere students ... but given the low nature of humans, even spiritual humans, it is just normal that it all goes wrong.
I can imagine that for many western hippies coming to India, having sex with the guru and then crying about it, it's all part of the complete experience.
Like I said there are always orthodox places were nobody is going to touch you, or even speak to you.
But is that what you want ?   You decide.

 

Most teachers are not PHD qualified and certified by the state.
Many are quite wacky people who just happened to end up awakened, now everyone wants a piece of them.
You are the great guru, the perfect, here is a garland for your head.
The "teacher" just sits there in a daze ... if it helps them then he will "teach".
And often it does help.
Students don't quite realise that they have to do 99.9% of the work.

 

Human beings are all going to end up in the grave, often dying painfully after a lifetime not so happy.
So that's a reality there.
Should they really not try with a teacher ?

 

Edited by rideforever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Kubba said:

Interresting than generally in such discussins blame goes on the Teacher. Noone speaks of students abusing the Teacher and the wrongdoing might be equal.

 

No - that’s really faulty thinking.

 

When one appoints themselves a teacher of any kind, they take on a huge responsibility.

 

A spiritual teacher has an even greater responsibility still. And this is on many levels - not only the normal human level, but on a ‘karmic’ level too (another discussion altogether)

 

This responsibility includes being able to skillfully navigate whatever flack they might get from students. If you can’t do something so simple, you should not be a teacher. It’s simple as that.

 

It’s also completely up to the teacher who they take on as students. Most genuine teachers I’ve met go to great lengths to filter who they take on as a student. 

 

Spirituality should only really start when when one has their life in order.

 

Taking on vulnerable ‘seekers’ is one of the hallmarks of a deviant teacher. Spirituality is not self help or therapy or self development.

 

And although many ‘broken’ people seek spirituality as a path to getting better, it is up to the teacher to spot this (again if they can’t do it, then they’re not ready to teach!). Then they can either refuse them as a student or put them on a path of recovery (self development) not a path of deconstruction (spirituality).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites