yuuichi Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) I read from a qigong website that there was someone called Dr. Reinhard Voll in Germany, and others, who have used an electrical probe to measure electrical resistance at points all over the body. They found that there was points over the body which had significantly lower electrical resistance. These points aligned with the Chinese meridians or qi channels. What exactly are these channels then? What are they made of? Edited December 16, 2018 by yuuichi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) Depends on what websites you read. I have just read this one: https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/electro.html But that's just "insensitive dogmatic western science", so never mind... Edited December 16, 2018 by wandelaar 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) Qi is not electricity - so any ‘western science perspective’ that tries to shoehorn Qi into some existing principle is bound to be problematic. The physical counterpart to Qi is the ‘jing jin’ lines running through your body. From a western scientific perspective this is part of the ‘fascia’ and ‘interstitium’ networks. The jing jin lines are like the physical ‘river beds’ that Qi runs through. They are slightly different to the meridians from the TCM perspective. Edited December 16, 2018 by freeform 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuuichi Posted December 16, 2018 39 minutes ago, freeform said: The jing jin lines are like the physical ‘river beds’ that Qi runs through. They are slightly different to the meridians from the TCM perspective. So the jing runs through the body via collagen, correct? And TCM meridians are channels of qi, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, yuuichi said: So the jing runs through the body via collagen, correct? And TCM meridians are channels of qi, right? Not quite. Jing Jin is the riverbed for Qi (not jing) in the context of qigong. Jing Jin could be roughly translated as ‘sinew channels’... these are specific physical lines of conductivity (of qi) running through the fascia network of the body. The TCM meridians are different - TCM meridians are part of the mental model of TCM for the purposes of medicine. Although the meridians do (generally) run along the same lines as jing jin, they’re used very differently than in qigong. 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nintendao Posted December 16, 2018 Nota bene, the word jing 经 used in the context of meridians literally means warp (as in weaving, not startrek), i.e. the longitudinal threads that provide the structured course for the weft. It is a different homophone of the word jing 精 usually seen meaning vital essences. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuuichi Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, freeform said: Not quite. Jing Jin is the riverbed for Qi (not jing) in the context of qigong. Jing Jin could be roughly translated as ‘sinew channels’... these are specific physical lines of conductivity (of qi) running through the fascia network of the body. The TCM meridians are different - TCM meridians are part of the mental model of TCM for the purposes of medicine. Although the meridians do (generally) run along the same lines as jing jin, they’re used very differently than in qigong. Does this Jing Jin have magnetic characteristics, or are affected by magnetic fields? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted December 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, yuuichi said: Does this Jing Jin have magnetic characteristics, or are affected by magnetic fields? Not ordinarily, no. Though at a certain stage one does start to develop Yin Qi which is often described as magnetic (it feels ‘magnetic’ in your body - pulling, pushing, compressing, expanding pressure sensations) - it is not actual magnetism though, it’s yin qi. It can also affect physical objects. For example you may have seen demonstrations of sand particles moving on a surface as a master projects his yin qi. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted December 17, 2018 So, are these pathways material/substantial, analgous to a wire conducting electrical current ... Or, are the areas of less relative resistance to qi/energy flow? Sort of begging a question here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuuichi Posted December 17, 2018 On 16/12/2018 at 1:07 PM, freeform said: The physical counterpart to Qi is the ‘jing jin’ lines running through your body. From a western scientific perspective this is part of the ‘fascia’ and ‘interstitium’ networks. So more collagen in the interstitium = more qi then? But old people have been for years looking how to increase collagen to reduce wrinkles. What do Daoists understand that regular old people don’t in this regard? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuuichi Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, OldDog said: So, are these pathways material/substantial, analgous to a wire conducting electrical current ... Or, are the areas of less relative resistance to qi/energy flow? Sort of begging a question here. I think it is the first because the other poster says it runs along bunches of collagen through the body (the fascia). Edited December 17, 2018 by yuuichi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nintendao Posted December 17, 2018 Quote Narrowly speaking, one might say that the channels are "spaces" (jian xi) in the body. In a larger sense, the concept of channel refers not only to the spaces, but to everything wrapped within them. In this definition, the concept broadens to include not only the spaces within the connective tissues, but also the structures (and fluids) held and brought together by these connective tissues. A channel is then like a river in that it includes the riverbanks and also the complexity of life within the water itself held by those banks In the body, the channels are the groupings of connective tissue, that bring together the blood vessels, bones, lymphatic vessels, nerves, tissues and interstitial fluids within their purview. (Applied Channel Theory in Chinese Medicine by Wang Ju-Yi and Jason Robertson, 2008, p. 13) What is the difference between a hand and a foot? Strictly compositionally speaking, they are virtually identical, so to define them by what they are made of is limited. What do they do is determined by where they are located in the body, and by finer details of over all shape and nature. What you do with them, is a matter of motives. Qi is everywhere. It is, most simply, movement. Fascia/collagen plays such a high profile role in identifying meridians because it is the connective chain along which movement propagates. This is only part of the story. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted December 17, 2018 On 12/16/2018 at 3:31 AM, yuuichi said: I read from a qigong website that there was someone called Dr. Reinhard Voll in Germany, and others, who have used an electrical probe to measure electrical resistance at points all over the body. They found that there was points over the body which had significantly lower electrical resistance. These points aligned with the Chinese meridians or qi channels. What exactly are these channels then? What are they made of? http://www.academia.edu/5706255/Superconducting_liquid_crystalline_meridians Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, recently deceased, Daoist quantum biologist. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted December 17, 2018 3 hours ago, OldDog said: So, are these pathways material/substantial, analgous to a wire conducting electrical current ... Or, are the areas of less relative resistance to qi/energy flow? Sort of begging a question here. Hmm good question. It’s closer to the second option, less relative resistance. Qi doesn’t conduct well through muscle, but does through the soft tissues. In fact extra Qi is ‘made’ in the soft tissues, but that’s an advanced subject I think if you cut open a (real) internal arts master, you would find much more and much denser connective tissue all over the body - much more than you would in a normal person. You should be able to also feel it with your fingers on palpating them. As Nintendao says, it’s not really the material (collagen and water) that’s important. These tissues build in the proper pathways and patterns through your body as a result of long term daily practice. Over time they make you more and more conductive. The channels, when built in this way, can conduct a far stronger charge than a normal human. One of the reasons that it’s a little different to the meridian system of TCM. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuuichi Posted December 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, freeform said: hese tissues build in the proper pathways and patterns through your body as a result of long term daily practice. What practices would you suggest to build all that dense connective tissue/collagen inside the body? Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted December 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, yuuichi said: What practices would you suggest to build all that dense connective tissue/collagen inside the body? Thanks The Yi Jin Jing is the classic that explains this aspect of training. The classic describes the principles behind building the body in this way. Modern teachers have taken the Yi Jin Jing and made them into a specific qigong form, but this classic doesn’t actually describe exercises. It describes principles, and the principles should be built into all Qi gong and internal martial arts forms (although it very rarely is!). So it’s a bit tricky to recommend anything specific because my very best advice (and everyone hates it) is to find a good internal arts teacher! Because this should be at the very foundation of all internal forms (and standing and sitting practice) - for at least the first 10 to 20 years of dedicated training! 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted December 26, 2018 Meridians aren't made of physical matter. One of the best arguments about that comes from the existence of meridians that ENTER the body and go through the organs and meat in general. The "TCM meridians" we see on most maps are only a very small portion of the real TCM meridians, which include divergent channels, Luo (connection) channels, Xue (blood) channels, Ying Qi channels, tendino-muscular channels ( those which could indeed be related to muscular fascia), deep channels, marrow channels, substance-oceans, rivers, lakes and wells, and so on. On another words, unless you have connective tissue in the middle of your heart or collagen in the middle of your brain and eyes (places were meridians DO exist and go through), no, meridians aren't made of connective tissue or collagen. Indeed, we have even meridians in the middle of our spinal chord. The divergent Kidney channel starts at the knees and go all the way up to your spine, then enters the spine at the Ming Men and go to your dantian at VC4. Later it raises through your organs and get to your heart. Later yet it raises again and goes to the tongue, and from there to the brain and eyes. And the divergent Conception Vessel channel goes through the whole of the spine. That being said, yes, acupuncture points do seem to influence and be influenced by electricity - as well as pressure. One method of diagnosys is based on pressing the accupoint. If it hurts or feels WAY too soft (lacks tonus) then that represents either an excess or a deficiency in energy in that acupoint. That do coincides with electric variations in points in regards to the skin around them. That is to say, if you're measuring the electric conductivity of an acupoint in the middle of your arm, you need to make it compared to the surrounding tissue, not, for instance, the electric conductivity of your hand. Our skin has naturally different conductive potentials (due to things like sweat and the amount of blood flowing in that part of the body), so that has to be taken into account. That said, not only is electro-measuring an efficient means of diagnosys, it can be used for treatment as well. However, that is were things get complicated - TCM isn't only about the meridians, it also includes the organs (the physical ones), bones, marrow, blood (not Xue, but common blood) and etc. So an energetic/meridian-based diagnosys will be only a small part on the general diagnosys - since it will give you clues about what is happening on all levels, but not a definitive answer. For instance. You can have a blockage of energy on your Small Intestine channel. Some people would think "oh, then he must have intestinal problems!". However, the Small Intestine channel is the yang-most of the channels, and it is frequently aflicted by perverse energy. Most of the times, energy invading the Small Intestine meridian will travel from there either to other yang meridian - like the Large Intestine or Bladder meridians - and then get into contact with the Lung meridian and, from there, invade the Lungs. So, while the germs and viruses are happily trying to fixate themselves on your lungs, the perverse cold energy is wreacking havoc on your body. Once the germs and the energy combine in the organs, however, that is when you get sick. And that is also why things like getting hit by wind on your face can give you disease. Now, talking about what meridians are: If you could increase your energy sensitivity to the point where you can see (with your eyes) the denser forms of energy moving on a person's body (the Ying Qi), then you would be able to see what seems like small black lines going through it. Sometimes, for some reason, these black lines become engorged, or even form "balls" and "black areas" around some part of the body. Sometimes, they are barely visible, or even invisible. Those are the meridians, and the thing flowing in them is Ying Qi which has been through the whole blood circulation and is now circulating in the meridians (Ying Qi first circulates on your blood, inside the blood vessels, and only then enters the meridians). The places were there are black masses are acupoints (places were energy goes through and which act as "gates" somehow, since they can block its flow) which present blockages, and the places where there are no lines are places where there is no (or almost no) energy going through. If you get one of those black places and apply pressure into it, the person will fell a good amount of a very particular type of pain (which most people used to physical pain will still think "shit, this hurts!" while regular people won't feel much more pain than them) and that place will slowly start to relax and allow for the energy to flow again. This will release a lot of pressure from the place, and will eventually start to show signs - like inflamations going away, muscles relaxing, diseases having its symptoms alleviated, reduced pain, etc, etc. Sometimes you'll even be able to completely eliminate some kind of bodly disarmony (such as a disease, be it physical, emotional or mental). This energy and its flows also affect the emotions and thoughts of a person. Then, if you go deeper into the rabbit hole, you'll notice that these meridians also act a lot like tubes - they can get blocked because the energy inside of them is too thick, for instance, even without stopping at a certain acupoint. Yes, I have gonne through this (through possession), yes I have obtained results, no, false-puncture did not generate the same effects on other people. Many times affecting a point near a blockage, however, is affecting the blockage itself - as it is a mass of energy, much like a haematoma, not mentioning that, by affecting an acupoint away from a certain place, you can also affect that place. Still, many acupoints do not dissolve or alleviate the black energy masses. That's it. 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted December 27, 2018 On 26/12/2018 at 5:39 PM, Desmonddf said: Meridians aren't made of physical matter. Thanks that’s a thorough description from a TCM perspective. The channels from a Qi Gong perspective are slightly different. From a taiji and neigong perspective different still. Interestingly the fascia does run through all bodily tissues - including the organs, bones etc. But you’re right the fascia lines are not the meridians, they are the ‘riverbed of Qi’ - subtle but important difference. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted December 28, 2018 22 hours ago, freeform said: Interestingly the fascia does run through all bodily tissues - including the organs, bones etc. But you’re right the fascia lines are not the meridians, they are the ‘riverbed of Qi’ - subtle but important difference. I would say they (fascia lines) are the tendino-muscular channels. That would be very much correct in terms of what we do to them and which results we get from it. Ankle-wrist therapy is a very interesting and efficient form if teraphy, as well as ah shi puncture - both dealing with fascia. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted December 29, 2018 Think entropy. We are, from a cosmological point of view: Emptiness >> Primordial Light >> Energy >> Space / Mass >> Mass >> physical. our skin is the lowest and last level ! Much ink is spilled over 'reversing' the course to get back... one might ask, how far 'back' are you in your practice ? Here is the information held behind the curtain: While in this lowest level of a body, we contain all the higher levels 'dna', so to speak. Some practices seek to reverse course... and some seek to just realize it... and some to just reside in it. The ultimate border control is the curtain... who can draw it back? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sora Posted January 4, 2019 Good point dawei! On 2018/12/29 at 10:20 AM, dawei said: The ultimate border control is the curtain... who can draw it back? And this line reminded me of that poem composed by the monk Huineng: Enlightenment is not a tree, 菩提本無樹,The bright mirror has no stand; 明鏡亦非臺。Originally there is not one thing— 本來無一物,What place could there be for dust? [3] 何處惹塵埃。 What place could there be for curtain? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nintendao Posted January 4, 2019 On 12/26/2018 at 12:39 PM, Desmonddf said: Meridians aren't made of physical matter. One of the best arguments about that comes from the existence of meridians that ENTER the body and go through ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted January 4, 2019 Pretty incredible stuff the body and its relationship to our identity / being. A complexity barely comprehensible. Whether there is a body is another question. Whether material is meaningful or just a collective programming that we overlay on the world rather than seeing it directly another question. Many chakras are either on the surface of the body, just outside, or not connected to any organ or structure whatsoever. In all this talk of TCM and of qigong and energies, it seems to me it is just faster to get enlightened which lifts you out of the "body" and its functions permanently. TCM if you factor in the divergent channels and everything else described, well ... it is exceptionally complex. And if you truly want a solution you can forget surgery, you need a much bigger force to pull out the root of it. Examples are ZZ or spontaneous qigong where you allow other forces to clean house, or awakening where you are awakening to a higher dimension of existence and pulling it inside of the "body" structure. These are winning methods that uproot the tree of the problem. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted January 5, 2019 16 hours ago, rideforever said: it seems to me it is just faster to get enlightened Why bother with practices to prepare you for enlightenment when you can just get enlightened directly eh?! If only it was that easy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted January 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, freeform said: Why bother with practices to prepare you for enlightenment when you can just get enlightened directly eh?! In what way does TCM prepare you for meditation ? So many saints were nobodies with nothing, just sat down one day and did it. Why you think TCM or energy work prepares for enlightenment ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites