Chen Tai Chi : How To Learn

[OldDog]

Students are many; Masters are few.

 

Masters are interested in passing on an art so that it does not die out. They look for students that have interest, some talent and are teachable. From those students they may accept a few to be indoor students. 

 

There are many good teachers out there that are not masters. If there were not, the arts would not propagate at all.

 

In one sense, taiji is a lot like daoism. Daoist masters are few and those of interest are many. The community of interested followers must to some degree support itself. We learn from each other. In every martisl arts group I have ever had contact with, the older students help the younger under the watchful eye of the master. 

 

All you need at a basic level is the desire to learn and to come with an empty cup. You don't know what you don't know. If you can't or won't accept the guidance of others progress will be very slow. Clearly many have responded to the OP in good faith. That is all one can do.

[OldDog]

38 minutes ago, Mig said:

Other Kung Fu styles, especially in the south, use numbers that are part of the Chinese culture or even cosmology or related to Buddhism.

 

Yeah, I can see how that could be. Just in my Chen experience I have never heard any special explanation for the number of movements in a form. 

[oak]

Training Chen Village information

http://www.chenbingtaiji.com/index.php/chenjiagou.html

[steve]

On 12/6/2018 at 1:02 PM, rideforever said:

I am very inspired by the performance below (which I believe is the 56 Competition form) and interested to learn Chen TaiChi .... can anyone recommend any DVD series that is solid and includes the kind of basic and intermediary exercises and trainings that are done at the village ?   And does anyone know how much it is to get trained in China at the village or elsewhere like on a 3 month retreat.   Any info would be good thanks.

 

 

If you want to learn Chen Taijiquan (or any style for that matter), I highly recommend a teacher. 

Subtle changes in posture, movement, intention, and so on can make a world of difference.

 

If you want to learn what you can without a teacher, I would recommend reading the books by Chen Zhenglei.

They are the most clear, detailed, and authoritative that I've come across.

These two should get you started:

Chen's Taichi for Health and Wellness

Chen's Taichi Old Frame One and Two

Along with reading the books, watch videos of Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang.

There are other great masters to watch but those two have a lot of online videos and are very reliable. 

Their form is what Chen's style should look like.

Many tournament competitors sacrifice martial sensibility for aesthetics.

 

All that said, without a credible teacher your progress will be quite limited.

 

 

[rideforever]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

If you want to learn Chen Taijiquan (or any style for that matter), I highly recommend a teacher. 

Subtle changes in posture, movement, intention, and so on can make a world of difference.

 

If you want to learn what you can without a teacher, I would recommend reading the books by Chen Zhenglei.

They are the most clear, detailed, and authoritative that I've come across.

These two should get you started:

Chen's Taichi for Health and Wellness

Chen's Taichi Old Frame One and Two

Along with reading the books, watch videos of Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang.

There are other great masters to watch but those two have a lot of online videos and are very reliable. 

Their form is what Chen's style should look like.

Many tournament competitors sacrifice martial sensibility for aesthetics.

 

All that said, without a credible teacher your progress will be quite limited.

 

Yes thank you.  I am not finding books a very suitable mechanism for conveying this kind of information.

Interestingly I was just doing some silk reeling, it was quite incredible I could feel the 4 basic energies, the differences and the dantien activating them through the body, effortless barely any effort and 4 different energies flowing for instance in single and double handed silk reeling.

All that comes mainly from Mike Stigman's directions.   Free on the internet.   Now I have Ken Gullette's silk reeling DVD and also Chen Xiaowang's and they don't mention the detail Stigman's mentions.

Stigman said cut the sh** and feel, go slow and just feel untl the body realigns.
I did that very slowly all summer, looked it idiot in park, barely moving ... now can do, now does automatically.

Right so that's telling me that official teachers can't teach me what I want to learn, and other people on youtube can, and that I can do it myself and feel it.   

Although doing 1 hr wuji every day the last 2 weeks has changed everything, lots of power now, more obvious.

I honestly don't have time to go to a local tai chi class where we all follow like donkeys some guy showing us the first 5 moves of some form .... did that few months back following highly rated (apparently)teacher of some Yang family tradition.   

And then what ?   I value my life too much for this cr**, it's mostly aimed at idiots.   Probably after 5 months he will realise I was quite serious ... well sorry I don't have time.
Learn 1 000 times as much from Stigman, now can do it myself.

Looked at the index of Chen Zhenglei's videos but seems to not include any internal exercises, just very clear alignment of form ... so what ?   Meaningless.
Better bet is probably BKF and his students doing the Wu Short Form, small form but very accurate, incredible performances, just few moves.   Or there are some from Chen Man Ching also very detailed info by that slightly wild man looking teacher.
Anyway, I prefer to do small things well with real teachers, now I know these 4 energies with dantien I keep for life, for ever, no need any more instruction because feel myself so own myself.
Call me crazy wild undisciplined  disrespectful.

But still I own this myself now.
Bad attitude ... yes I know sorry, must change.

 

 

[lightminefire]

I learned with Master Jesse the 12 generation of chen style http://www.taichihealthways.com/DVD-Video-Categories/

You can download or purchased DVD

I like this Yang & Chen taichi 

[rideforever]

Practically speaking might try one of the Chen short forms, or just integrate do the Liuhebafa form I know in taichi style using silk reeling.

 

Also being expert at competition Chen style is not the same thing as being sung into the abyss and doing the form in a profound spiritual way, maybe just try that integrate wuji, emptiness, dantien, and then movement .... just try see what happens.  Hmm.   

 

Feel like tai chi anarchist.   But my way will not be like official tai chi of course.   Maybe I am just looking for my own way.   Small, ugly, but feels real to me.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by rideforever

[rideforever]

Thank you all for your suggestions, sorry if I sound ungrateful in my responses.

[rideforever]

Marin Spivack Interview  3 Parts :

 

https://nowaxneeded.wordpress.com/2018/04/12/episode-33-to-china-and-back-an-interview-with-marin-spivack-part-3/

[steve]

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

Practically speaking might try one of the Chen short forms, or just integrate do the Liuhebafa form I know in taichi style using silk reeling.

 

Also being expert at competition Chen style is not the same thing as being sung into the abyss and doing the form in a profound spiritual way, maybe just try that integrate wuji, emptiness, dantien, and then movement .... just try see what happens.  Hmm.   

 

Feel like tai chi anarchist.   But my way will not be like official tai chi of course.   Maybe I am just looking for my own way.   Small, ugly, but feels real to me.

 

 

 

I've pushed hands with a few self-taught tai chi anarchists...

Never encountered one with any skill.

 

No doubt you can get lots of benefit from experimenting and improvising but it's unlikely you'll develop any martial skill, if that's what you're after. For that you need to learn power generation, listening, sticking, following, timing, and other skills that require expert guidance and lots of practice with multiple partners. You need to feel someone who knows what they are doing to get a sense of how to apply the methods.

 

At the end of the day it's all about what you want to get out of it.

I wish you the best of luck whichever path you take. 

Taiji is an amazing art and is worthy of deep commitment and investment.

 

 

 

[rideforever]

8 hours ago, steve said:

At the end of the day it's all about what you want to get out of it.

I wish you the best of luck whichever path you take. 

Taiji is an amazing art and is worthy of deep commitment and investment.

 

Yes, it's a good point, unfortunately there are no obvious answers, and I have more time at home that anything else, that's my situation.

Interestingly listening to Marin Spivack and the other interview further up on the thread it is clear that many older tai chi master died of diseases whilst not very old, and also that the martial application of tai chi is highly questionable, listen to Spivack for his reasoning ... though of course you can do what you wish.

Personally I studied 5 years full contact Chinese Kickboxing when younger also several years western kickboxing, so I know quite a lot about fighting, and not fighting !!!

Also it's interesting MMA fighting, on the ground like a dog, what fighting is really about.

Why am I interested in tai chi, it's mostly about body integration, feeling chi, and merging with the source in a spiritual way .... Dayan doesn't have the body integration thing going on.

Anyway more pondering to come.   There is nobody obvious around here, apart from some people doing health arts and they do a 53 Yang style form with Buqi Institute, seeing them for shiatsu in an hour.   Maybe try them.

Anyway, life offers some opportunities but not all ... but take what is possible.  Also reach for the impossible in own time.

[steve]

Are you familiar with yiquan?

Sort of an amalgam of zhan zhuang and xingyiquan.

If your interest runs into the deeper energetic and spiritual side, it might be something worth exploring a bit.

 

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, steve said:

Are you familiar with yiquan?

Sort of an amalgam of zhan zhuang and xingyiquan.

If your interest runs into the deeper energetic and spiritual side, it might be something worth exploring a bit.

 

Can you say a bit more about Yiquan, it's energetics and so on ... how is it compared to tai chi ?  And how to learn ?

[steve]

I've never studied so I don't want to try and describe it but have pushed hands with some students of yiquan and I've also seen some masters demonstrate. Their ability to issue power is impressive. There is similarity to other internal arts but the emphasis is on zhan zhuang. This results in very astute listening skills as well as spontaneity and unpredictability.

 

This page has a nice description - http://gufengtaichi.org/news-and-articles/yiquan-power-mind/.

As with any internal martial art, it's my opinion that there is no substitute for a credible teacher. 

In terms of video and online teaching, you'll have to investigate, I haven't studied the art and can't recommend any particular resources.

It does sound like something you would find appealing based on your early posts.

 

[dwai]

51 minutes ago, steve said:

I've never studied so I don't want to try and describe it but have pushed hands with some students of yiquan and I've also seen some masters demonstrate. Their ability to issue power is impressive. There is similarity to other internal arts but the emphasis is on zhan zhuang. This results in very astute listening skills as well as spontaneity and unpredictability.

 

This page has a nice description - http://gufengtaichi.org/news-and-articles/yiquan-power-mind/.

As with any internal martial art, it's my opinion that there is no substitute for a credible teacher. 

In terms of video and online teaching, you'll have to investigate, I haven't studied the art and can't recommend any particular resources.

It does sound like something you would find appealing based on your early posts.

 

Standing is the way to develop power. Imho, if someone doesn't have a standing practice, they cannot develop internal power. I have a three-volume series on Yiquan titled "Warriors of Stillness trilogy". The author Jan Diepersloot has done an excellent job outlining the practice of Yiquan as well as adapting it to Taijiquan. I find their standing drills are there in all good taijiquan systems. I've seen some of what Mizner teaches viz. Huang Sheng Shyan/Yang Ban Hou styles - and his introductory work is standing meditations. In Temple style (which is what I'm a student of since since 2002), there is extensive standing. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Yiquan-Awareness-Warriors-Stillness/dp/0964997649/ref=pd_cp_14_3?pd_rd_w=sZ7ka&pf_rd_p=ef4dc990-a9ca-4945-ae0b-f8d549198ed6&pf_rd_r=GGFZRMJWKSZ4Q49GNRBA&pd_rd_r=85e3d3ad-ff05-11e8-8b23-7f522031bab0&pd_rd_wg=YSLmn&pd_rd_i=0964997649&psc=1&refRID=GGFZRMJWKSZ4Q49GNRBA

 

[steve]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Standing is the way to develop power. Imho, if someone doesn't have a standing practice, they cannot develop internal power. I have a three-volume series on Yiquan titled "Warriors of Stillness trilogy". The author Jan Diepersloot has done an excellent job outlining the practice of Yiquan as well as adapting it to Taijiquan. I find their standing drills are there in all good taijiquan systems. I've seen some of what Mizner teaches viz. Huang Sheng Shyan/Yang Ban Hou styles - and his introductory work is standing meditations. In Temple style (which is what I'm a student of since since 2002), there is extensive standing. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Yiquan-Awareness-Warriors-Stillness/dp/0964997649/ref=pd_cp_14_3?pd_rd_w=sZ7ka&pf_rd_p=ef4dc990-a9ca-4945-ae0b-f8d549198ed6&pf_rd_r=GGFZRMJWKSZ4Q49GNRBA&pd_rd_r=85e3d3ad-ff05-11e8-8b23-7f522031bab0&pd_rd_wg=YSLmn&pd_rd_i=0964997649&psc=1&refRID=GGFZRMJWKSZ4Q49GNRBA

 

 

When I think about what the internal martial arts have in common, the answer for me is standing meditation.

It's the source of power in xingyiquan - santishi.

The principles of zhan zhuang are also at play in circle walking in baguazhang.

While the legs are stepping, the upper body and core engagement are analogous to that in standing practice.

[Aetherous]

On 12/9/2018 at 10:59 PM, dwai said:

http://practicalmethod.com

 

Out of anyone else, I was most impressed with what I saw of his teachings. Also impressed with his movement, which is clearly a result of what he teaches.

If I wanted to spend time practicing internal martial arts, it'd be with him.

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Out of anyone else, I was most impressed with what I saw of his teachings. Also impressed with his movement, which is clearly a result of what he teaches.

If I wanted to spend time practicing internal martial arts, it'd be with him.

If I wanted to go down that route (Chen style), then Practical Method would be it for me. I too like him and his pragmatic approach a lot. 

[rideforever]

Practical Method is expensive, 1600 USD for 1 month.

 

Yiquan looks quite fun but a little unbeautiful.   Anyway I am thinking that the best way to win is to connect with life and respect people were they are, to create a harmony between yourself and others.  What good is fighting ?   Then you look for fights.   I like doing Change Quan because it's hard full body direct, and I do, keeps me honest.   But I wonder if it would be more spiritual to do more Dayan, I am not sure to what extent you can go deep into Dayan, I have not seen that spiritual dimension so much.   As for Chen best bet is to start with one of the short forms and see how it feels.   The Tao of Yiquan Jan Diepersloot series looks good.

[rideforever]

Perhaps somebody with experience could let me know what they think of this.  The reason I like it is because it s more hard version.  Thanks.

 

 

 

 

https://masterwongsystem.com/collections/health-products/products/tai-chi-chen-style?contact_posted=true#contact_form

[Miffymog]

18 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Perhaps somebody with experience could let me know what they think of this.  The reason I like it is because it s more hard version.  Thanks.

 

 

 

 

https://masterwongsystem.com/collections/health-products/products/tai-chi-chen-style?contact_posted=true#contact_form

 

 

There seems to be no power behind it. All his movements are due to his exterior mobilizer muscles rather than his interior posterial ones, but I've never done any Tai Chi so you'd have to take what I say with a pinch of salt.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Miffymog

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

Perhaps somebody with experience could let me know what they think of this.

 

I do not see this as being a very good representstion of Chen style. No disrespect to this practitioner at all.  Certainly, the practitioner has learned the sequence of the movements and is physically well developed and would probably be a fierce adversary in the ring. There is a very strong influence of other styles in his movements.

 

I am reminded of when I first started taiji. Teacher did not speak much English and was very traditional in his teaching. One day after class a group of us went to lunch with teacher. As we sat there eating, conversation was going around the table but teacher could not participate much. I believe he understood more than he let on but just could not synthesize an Engkish response well or quickly.  In a quiet moment, teacher spoke in quietly Chinese and one of the other students translated. Teacher was asking me if I had studied other martial arts. I acknowledged that I had; Aikido, Taekwondo and some kungfu. One hearing the translated response, teacher just nodded and said, "Hmm". I have thought about that moment often. I had presumed, by virtue of my past experience, that I was well prepared for learning Chen style. Over the next three years, teacher guided me in unlearning as many of the habits from previous trainings as possible, often making comments like, "not correct", "more relax, more song", "too strong, not good jin". I came to understand that physical strength and muscular tension in movement was an obstacle to learning taiji. Many are attracted to Chen style because it appears more martial than other styles. Certainly that was true in my case. But Chen taiji is a true taiji and should not be viewed through an understanding of "hard" style. Its strength and ability is of a different kind than the "hard" styles that appeal to so many. 

 

Compare to 

 

 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

I am reminded of when I first started taiji.

 

I find posts that share personal experience in training the most valuable of all. Thanks.

 

You’re also very kind in your posts

 

I would’ve said that in that video demonstration, the man showed absolutely no understanding of the internal mechanisms behind taichi. I would guess he’s an external martial arts practitioner (looking at his body) - and he’s probably very good at that. He should not be demonstrating taichi.

[freeform]

 

Bearing in mind I’m no Chen expert, this guy at least demonstrates some internal skill. Not sure how good the form is overall though.

[rideforever]

On 13/12/2018 at 6:37 PM, dwai said:

 

 

Hey Dwai.   I am interested in these Jan Diepersloot books.   Perhaps you can say something a bit more.  One is on Taiji, one on Yiquan standing, and one on body mechanics.   But are they practical meaning .... has he extracted the underlying principles and does he have series of well-described exercises to make those principles work ?
Or is it more fluffy than that ?
Or is it devoid of real practical instructions, more descriptive.
Basically I like that Mike Stigman video because he had extracted principles from Silk Reeling / Internal Power and given powerful exercises within which to cultivate, and I did it and it worked very well.   So it was actionable.

Theory on its own is not doing it for me right now.
Perhaps you could say a bit more about these books.
Thanks.