Recommended Posts

Something that has been bugging me for some time now is the divergence between Mo Pai and other practices, namely that in the former the energy they seem to discuss seems to be in some ways at odds. Upon researching and cross comparing texts I have come to a conclusion in my mind at least to suggest

 

(1) Mo Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones...what i mean by this is the that most systems cultivate Yin & Yang Qi in the following manner

 

 

260px-Yin_yang.svg.png

 

By contrast, Mo Pai seems to cultivate the following

 

yin-yang-hi.png

 

Now this is only an assumption, but it is one I base on the following

 

(1) Chang stating he had no idea when Kosta presented him with the former symbol

(2) Damo mitchell has repeatedly  that when  pure Yang Qi (heaven Qi) is accessed , the laogong light up and you will enter a period where you lose sensation, similar to what Mo Pai level 1 and 2 symptoms is supposed to be)

(3) Chang stating about sending the ball of pure yang down to the perineum corresponds with Damo, where he stated that pure yang will attract pure Yin. Thus by sending down the pure yang, you are allowing the proportionate amount of yin to gather. Also because the yang sits at the perineum, which is the entry point, it further prevents any distortion

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

 

Now im not at all suggesting im right, but is it merely over-analysis, or does anyone else see discrepancies in MP and other systems?

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mo pai is not a taoist system. It is an advanced shammanic practice. Hope this clears things up. And please please please don't beat dead horses :)
Have a nice day.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is over-analyzing to some degree.   Stick with an advanced practice that seeks such outcomes and one should be able to get there if they have what it takes.  The problem is, trying to do it without what it takes makes it maybe the wrong practice.  

 

A few points I recall from the book on him:  

1. He was like a guru to the students and had to 'help' them at times in some tests.   So it seems a close working relationship, like having a guru is the true way.

2. He went into the woods to devote himself to a certain level and by cutting himself off from the world he cut down years of training otherwise... so , if one has what it takes.

3. I only recall him talking about healing people face to face but not remote healing.  Yet, lots of people can do remote healing.  Even can do remote connection to deities or find colony beings without help.    So, if he was working with pure Yin and Yang (primordial stuff), why doesn't he just heal remotely instead of relying on inclusion of acupuncture as well.

 

He can do stuff others can't.  And others can do stuff he can't.  

 

I think the lineage traces to Mencius and Chang follows an Indonesian method.  So, not taoist is correct.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

Something that has been bugging me for some time now is the divergence between Mo Pai and other practices, namely that in the former the energy they seem to discuss seems to be in some ways at odds. Upon researching and cross comparing texts I have come to a conclusion in my mind at least to suggest

 

(1) Mo Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones...what i mean by this is the that most systems cultivate Yin & Yang Qi in the following manner

 

 

260px-Yin_yang.svg.png

 

By contrast, Mo Pai seems to cultivate the following

 

yin-yang-hi.png

 

Now this is only an assumption, but it is one I base on the following

 

(1) Chang stating he had no idea when Kosta presented him with the former symbol

(2) Damo mitchell has repeatedly  that when  pure Yang Qi (heaven Qi) is accessed , the laogong light up and you will enter a period where you lose sensation, similar to what Mo Pai level 1 and 2 symptoms is supposed to be)

(3) Chang stating about sending the ball of pure yang down to the perineum corresponds with Damo, where he stated that pure yang will attract pure Yin. Thus by sending down the pure yang, you are allowing the proportionate amount of yin to gather. Also because the yang sits at the perineum, which is the entry point, it further prevents any distortion

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

 

Now im not at all suggesting im right, but is it merely over-analysis, or does anyone else see discrepancies in MP and other systems?

 

 

I think it is very easy to fool oneself. How do you know what is "pure" yang and what is "pure" Yin?

One really can't separate them, they only exist because their counter exists. So what you have written is basically nonsense, taken from someones else nonsense and so the lies are spread by those that seek fame and confirmation from others.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

15 hours ago, Zork said:

Mo pai is not a taoist system. It is an advanced shammanic practice. Hope this clears things up. And please please please don't beat dead horses :)
Have a nice day.

 

 

What exactly constitutes a Daoist system in your opinion? Also, I didnt explicitly refer to it as one, I was actually contrasting it with them rather.

 

And i certainly dont intend on flogging any dead horses, but discussion around past evidence and contrasting with more current publicly available recent knowledge is ok, isnt it?

 

4 hours ago, dawei said:

I think it is over-analyzing to some degree.   Stick with an advanced practice that seeks such outcomes and one should be able to get there if they have what it takes.  The problem is, trying to do it without what it takes makes it maybe the wrong practice.  

 

A few points I recall from the book on him:  

1. He was like a guru to the students and had to 'help' them at times in some tests.   So it seems a close working relationship, like having a guru is the true way.

2. He went into the woods to devote himself to a certain level and by cutting himself off from the world he cut down years of training otherwise... so , if one has what it takes.

3. I only recall him talking about healing people face to face but not remote healing.  Yet, lots of people can do remote healing.  Even can do remote connection to deities or find colony beings without help.    So, if he was working with pure Yin and Yang (primordial stuff), why doesn't he just heal remotely instead of relying on inclusion of acupuncture as well.

 

He can do stuff others can't.  And others can do stuff he can't.  

 

I think the lineage traces to Mencius and Chang follows an Indonesian method.  So, not taoist is correct.  

 

I have no idea if it is indonesian, he did state his master brought it from china so...that would remain an unanswered question

 

1 hour ago, flowing hands said:

 

 

I think it is very easy to fool oneself. How do you know what is "pure" yang and what is "pure" Yin?

One really can't separate them, they only exist because their counter exists. So what you have written is basically nonsense, taken from someones else nonsense and so the lies are spread by those that seek fame and confirmation from others.

 

They are actually the same thing, they exist on opposite ends of the same continuum in my opinion....pure would be the extremity....so if we quantified it, 0 being Pure Yin and 100 being Pure Yang

 

On an electromagnetic spectrum, we could call one pure magnetism, the other pure electric

On a light spectrum, pure red to pure blue (yet still on the one continuum)

From a temporal perspective (Past to future, yet time itself is the continuum)

 

The point is I was making was that the cultivation was of extremities..its nothing to do with separation

 

As a quantified example  cultivation of Pure Yin (0) and Pure Yang (100) as opposed to Distorted Yin (33) and Distorted Yang (66)...Please note im not suggesting those latter figures accurate, they are merely just an example

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

 

What exactly constitutes a Daoist system in your opinion? Also, I didnt explicitly refer to it as one, I was actually contrasting it with them rather.

 

And i certainly dont intend on flogging any dead horses, but discussion around past evidence and contrasting with more current publicly available recent knowledge is ok, isnt it?

 

 

I have no idea if it is indonesian, he did state his master brought it from china so...that would remain an unanswered question

 

 

They are actually the same thing, they exist on opposite ends of the same continuum in my opinion....pure would be the extremity....so if we quantified it, 0 being Pure Yin and 100 being Pure Yang

 

On an electromagnetic spectrum, we could call one pure magnetism, the other pure electric

On a light spectrum, pure red to pure blue (yet still on the one continuum)

From a temporal perspective (Past to future, yet time itself is the continuum)

 

The point is I was making was that the cultivation was of extremities..its nothing to do with separation

 

As a quantified example  cultivation of Pure Yin (0) and Pure Yang (100) as opposed to Distorted Yin (33) and Distorted Yang (66)...Please note im not suggesting those latter figures accurate, they are merely just an example

 

How can they? All of us are made up from both, the air we breathe is both. The only reason why we know that they exist is by the fact that many life, but not all, are divided slightly into yin and yang. We could say scientifically that electrons are divided before they make a whole. But going back to life it is more to do with the environment and continuation of the species that yin and yang seem to be different. Energy is energy and it is only tainted by the people who use it. The Dao is the same whatever, there is no better yin or yang, its all the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

They are actually the same thing, they exist on opposite ends of the same continuum in my opinion....pure would be the extremity....so if we quantified it, 0 being Pure Yin and 100 being Pure Yang

 

On an electromagnetic spectrum, we could call one pure magnetism, the other pure electric

On a light spectrum, pure red to pure blue (yet still on the one continuum)

From a temporal perspective (Past to future, yet time itself is the continuum)

 

The point is I was making was that the cultivation was of extremities..its nothing to do with separation

 

As a quantified example  cultivation of Pure Yin (0) and Pure Yang (100) as opposed to Distorted Yin (33) and Distorted Yang (66)...Please note im not suggesting those latter figures accurate, they are merely just an example

If you go 100% yin, you will get yang. if you go 100% yang, you will get yin. In fact, yin and yang always have a little of the opposite in them because otherwise they cannot exist (yang will dissipate into emptiness and yin will collapse into emptiness). :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dwai said:

If you go 100% yin, you will get yang. if you go 100% yang, you will get yin. In fact, yin and yang always have a little of the opposite in them because otherwise they cannot exist (yang will dissipate into emptiness and yin will collapse into emptiness). :)

and isn't that why visually there's white dot and black dot in each opposing colors center..

 

Course you can only take a metaphor, especially a visual one so far.    Yin and Yang are very useful fundamental concepts but are so big that its easy too high fallutin' with them.. ie it often works best when applying to a specific action.  Otherwise its gets too abstract, at least for my tastes. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you go 100% yin, you will get yang. if you go 100% yang, you will get yin. In fact, yin and yang always have a little of the opposite in them because otherwise they cannot exist (yang will dissipate into emptiness and yin will collapse into emptiness). :)

 

IMO, that is duality speak.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

IMO, that is duality speak.  

Only when taken as separate “things”. It is always yin-yang or taiji. But mostly discussions about it is pedagogy.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2018 at 5:27 PM, pegasus1992 said:

Something that has been bugging me for some time now is the divergence between Mo Pai and other practices, namely that in the former the energy they seem to discuss seems to be in some ways at odds. Upon researching and cross comparing texts I have come to a conclusion in my mind at least to suggest

 

(1) Mo Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones...what i mean by this is the that most systems cultivate Yin & Yang Qi in the following manner

 

 

260px-Yin_yang.svg.png

 

By contrast, Mo Pai seems to cultivate the following

 

yin-yang-hi.png

 

Now this is only an assumption, but it is one I base on the following

 

(1) Chang stating he had no idea when Kosta presented him with the former symbol

(2) Damo mitchell has repeatedly  that when  pure Yang Qi (heaven Qi) is accessed , the laogong light up and you will enter a period where you lose sensation, similar to what Mo Pai level 1 and 2 symptoms is supposed to be)

(3) Chang stating about sending the ball of pure yang down to the perineum corresponds with Damo, where he stated that pure yang will attract pure Yin. Thus by sending down the pure yang, you are allowing the proportionate amount of yin to gather. Also because the yang sits at the perineum, which is the entry point, it further prevents any distortion

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

 

Now im not at all suggesting im right, but is it merely over-analysis, or does anyone else see discrepancies in MP and other systems?

 

yes what you state is true - only  you are just starting to scratch the surface. When JOhn Chang said he did not recognize the taiji symbol that is because his lineage is apparently very ancient.

 

This is the oldest taiji symbol - from the Tang dynasty:

 

tumblr_inline_oov8q4EExC1tuek78_540.jpg

 

So you can see that indeed John Chang is correct.

 

As for what it means - well that requires more study. But as far as the book on John Chang - what the book states is that for most people the channels are running parallel. So then the more you build up the yang qi then the more yin qi you can store. But the hard part is to condense or fuse the yin and yang qi together - that is the equivalent of beyond chapter six in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality. So that is the Yuan Qi stage - the author of that book - the Greek student Kosta - he states he was never able to reach this stage since he was not able to maintain celibacy.

 

So you can study the book I mentioned for more details and also the book Foundations of Internal Alchemy - and other books by Pregadio. I actually confronted Pregadio about the very issue you are referring to since Pregadio insists there is a "static hub" at the center. But he's relying on a later Taiji symbol - not the original Taiji symbol. So John Chang's understand is not only more authentic but based on his success in training as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

What exactly constitutes a Daoist system in your opinion? Also, I didnt explicitly refer to it as one, I was actually contrasting it with them rather.

A taoist system is one that uses taoist philosophy.

This thread is posted on the taoist subforum.

 

Mo pai just uses the same terms as daoists. The actual concepts for yin and yang are different. Also indicative is the fact that there is no mention of the 8 trigrams or the I ching in Mo Pai.

 

Mo pai is another philosophical system rival to Confucius's and Lao Tzu's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozi

 

Western hermeticism also uses the two opposing forces but they don't have the same philosophy behind them.

 

Tl;dr you are using a taoist emblem and taoist philisophy to explain a non taoist system.

What is the point exactly?

8 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

And i certainly dont intend on flogging any dead horses, but discussion around past evidence and contrasting with more current publicly available recent knowledge is ok, isnt it?

I am afraid you are flogging the dead horse after all.

There is no new evidence on mo pai that has arisen during the last 15 years. Also mo pai is closed for westerners. So what we believe about it is moot point.

All the info you want is available anyway in the forum in Personal Practice Diaries of members.

Edited by Zork

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites