Sanchin breathing kata

[DJ CEIBA]

I'm blessed to have 2 dedicated & knowledgable karate teachers.

one (SJ) primarily teaches us fighting.

the other (SM) teaches us katas, tai chi & chi Kung  (mostly katas, tho)

 

as a traditional Goju-ryu stylist, he's asked us to get deep in "Sanchin breathing kata"(SBK). its a walking hard chi Kung form.

SBK uses sanchin stance/slow movement/posture/abdominal breathing/opening the microcosmic orbit.

i ask SM a lot of questions, study sanchin info online & study Taoist meditation books/sites/vids (mantak chia/dr yang).

SM also instructs us in sitting and standing eight pieces of brocade chi Kung.

i believe this is is to build our chi to move in daily life, during SBK & god forbid, if we have to defend ourselves.

 

i'm wondering if any one on here has any experience w/Sanchin & it's benefits.

[Nungali]

Minor experience  ,  instructor springs it on us occasionally , I cant see the point - our style is supposedly 'soft style' . I think it is because they like to 'demonstrate toughness'    (his teacher would come into class, still in work overalls and work boots, get them to do sanchin and 'test' the positions  (does your do that ?   Whack, strike and kick parts of your body while you maintain a  position ?   This one would do it with work boots on .    One of those guys would head butt the concrete wall for a bit before training .   Some of them got into breaking stuff and all that  Okinawan hard school demo stuff .

 

Its good if you want to toughen up ... its good if you want to go into comp  and just 'absorb' what they throw at you (especially if the comp has 'no head attack' rules )  .  But I cant see the point in 'soft style'   'real fighting'  or self defence  -  unless one is going to 'harden up' their eyes, nuts and knee caps (actually I saw a guy that could take a boot kick to his nuts, doctor checked them out and said that they were now hardened, atrophied,  useless balls of scary tissue     ... think I would rather wear a 'protector' !

 

When I was younger it did give a benefit of  being able to stand there and take a solid hit in ribs  and stomach, but working your way up to 50 sit up sets  -  doing the sit up fro seiza sitting position  ( get another person to hold your knees down and start with your shoulders on the floor ) , so you back is arched before you even start the  normal sit up ....  all those muscles have to pull the ribs tight together to get to the  beginning position of a normal sit up -    that  will do it .

 

But hey,  go-ju  is 'hard form'  style , so that's their bag.

 

[Nungali]

What other kata you doing ?

[steve]

I practiced Sanchin no kata for quite a while, maybe 10 years.

I found it very valuable for developing rooting, toughness, and clarity of mind.

[DJ CEIBA]

@Nungali

sensei mike does test us to see how our stances are. They check to see if we'reI using our muscles for armor, but also to get us to release tension in places we shouldn't. Sanchin is designed in part to build armor out of muscle.

 

At first, it was a confusing isometric muscle tenision exercise.

Then it was a way to practice & feel comfortable moving accurately w/sanchin stance.

then I could add the breathing, but everything was too tense. The black belts & teachers would crack on me

now i take it super slow - going through the motions at first. I add the more complex stuff (deepen my breath, pulling up on my perineum, tongue to the roof of the mouth, squeezing my fists only at the end of the movement, & much more) after the first 2 or 3 times through. I shoot for a set of 5 in the morning.

 

To the extent that it's the 3 battles or 3 conflicts, I find it "challenging" on an exceptional day to stack my bones correctly, breathe and direct chi flow correctly, & remember what I'm doing/relax what needs to relax/clench what needs to clench. It's a standing chi Kung meditation & as such - has been tricky to learn to chunk so many subtle pieces of info together effectively and perform it correctly!! (Very respectfully) The guy that was teaching your Sanchin may not have known it that well or didn't get introduced to it in a good way. 

 

That said - it's the source of the style & an introduction to the hard AND soft aspects of the Goju (hard/soft) style. My kata Sensei trained at a monastery in Okinawa for 7 years. He said his first THREE years w/his teacher (the Roshi) was ONLY sanchin breathing kata & hojo undo (& the usual cooking/cleaning/eating/meditation of monastic life). I believe when he told me this is the foundation & I could see how it paralleled the information I'd read in mantak chias books in the 90s about the microcosmic orbit & iron shirt. I was so thrilled to find somebody that could actually teach it (& that it wasn't bullshit!!).

[DJ CEIBA]

@Nungali

 

ok so I mentioned I have 2 teachers.

It's sensei john's (SJ)school - he's a USA goju stylist from Harlem. HIS kata teacher his sensei Michael (SJ who I mentioned previously).

SJ teaches USA goju katas so I know: gaedon (taikyoku 1) empi go, Jin choi, gesakucho, saifa

SM teaches traditional Okinawa katas so I know: Sanchin breathing kata, gekisai 1/2/3, traditional Saifa, tensho

i'm a 44 year old green belt - barely not a beginner, but I train HARD!

i can actually perform all those katas reasonably well. Not just some shit I did one time.

this week 2 years ago (2016) My wife, daughter & I committed to going 3x a week.

wifey is and advanced orange, daughter is an advanced yellow. Very proud of them!!

 

[DJ CEIBA]

@steve

 

i appreciate how understated you were.

could you lavish me with some of your insights into the finer points and insights you got from 10 years of this kata?

i'm really just mastering all the mechanical stuff right now.

Every now and again I forget myself & relax into it, AND I'd love it if you'd drop some jewels

[Michael Sternbach]

59 minutes ago, DJ CEIBA said:

@Nungali

sensei mike does test us to see how our stances are. They check to see if we'reI using our muscles for armor, but also to get us to release tension in places we shouldn't. Sanchin is designed in part to build armor out of muscle.

 

At first, it was a confusing isometric muscle tenision exercise.

Then it was a way to practice & feel comfortable moving accurately w/sanchin stance.

then I could add the breathing, but everything was too tense. The black belts & teachers would crack on me

now i take it super slow - going through the motions at first. I add the more complex stuff (deepen my breath, pulling up on my perineum, tongue to the roof of the mouth, squeezing my fists only at the end of the movement, & much more) after the first 2 or 3 times through. I shoot for a set of 5 in the morning.

 

To the extent that it's the 3 battles or 3 conflicts, I find it "challenging" on an exceptional day to stack my bones correctly, breathe and direct chi flow correctly, & remember what I'm doing/relax what needs to relax/clench what needs to clench. It's a standing chi Kung meditation & as such - has been tricky to learn to chunk so many subtle pieces of info together effectively and perform it correctly!! (Very respectfully) The guy that was teaching your Sanchin may not have known it that well or didn't get introduced to it in a good way. 

 

That said - it's the source of the style & an introduction to the hard AND soft aspects of the Goju (hard/soft) style. My kata Sensei trained at a monastery in Okinawa for 7 years. He said his first THREE years w/his teacher (the Roshi) was ONLY sanchin breathing kata & hojo undo (& the usual cooking/cleaning/eating/meditation of monastic life). I believe when he told me this is the foundation & I could see how it paralleled the information I'd read in mantak chias books in the 90s about the microcosmic orbit & iron shirt. I was so thrilled to find somebody that could actually teach it (& that it wasn't bullshit!!).

 

It is relatively rare that you find any instruction in a style of traditional Karate with so much emphasis laid on qigong and 'internal aspects' in general. And yours sounds rather sophisticated. I think you are really lucky.

 

My own background in Kyokushinkai and Shotokan did not include much of those aspects initially, though over time I got to work with various martial arts styles and instructors that introduced me to them. I am currently practicing a variation of American Kenpo which incorporates those elements from Taiji and some of those styles of Karate that do have them.

 

Your description of your training sounds like it may have some direct basis in Fujian White Crane (one major source of Okinawan Karate).

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, DJ CEIBA said:

@Nungali

sensei mike does test us to see how our stances are. They check to see if we'reI using our muscles for armor, but also to get us to release tension in places we shouldn't. Sanchin is designed in part to build armor out of muscle.

 

At first, it was a confusing isometric muscle tenision exercise.

Then it was a way to practice & feel comfortable moving accurately w/sanchin stance.

then I could add the breathing, but everything was too tense. The black belts & teachers would crack on me

now i take it super slow - going through the motions at first. I add the more complex stuff (deepen my breath, pulling up on my perineum, tongue to the roof of the mouth, squeezing my fists only at the end of the movement, & much more) after the first 2 or 3 times through. I shoot for a set of 5 in the morning.

 

To the extent that it's the 3 battles or 3 conflicts, I find it "challenging" on an exceptional day to stack my bones correctly, breathe and direct chi flow correctly, & remember what I'm doing/relax what needs to relax/clench what needs to clench. It's a standing chi Kung meditation & as such - has been tricky to learn to chunk so many subtle pieces of info together effectively and perform it correctly!! (Very respectfully) The guy that was teaching your Sanchin may not have known it that well or didn't get introduced to it in a good way. 

 

?  Did I say something to suggest that ?  < goes and looks >  ..... hmmmm .... I said he springs it on us sometimes  and that his teacher would' test ' them while doing it .

 

 

 

Quote

 

That said - it's the source of the style & an introduction to the hard AND soft aspects of the Goju (hard/soft) style. My kata Sensei trained at a monastery in Okinawa for 7 years. He said his first THREE years w/his teacher (the Roshi) was ONLY sanchin breathing kata & hojo undo (& the usual cooking/cleaning/eating/meditation of monastic life). I believe when he told me this is the foundation & I could see how it paralleled the information I'd read in mantak chias books in the 90s about the microcosmic orbit & iron shirt. I was so thrilled to find somebody that could actually teach it (& that it wasn't bullshit!!).

 

   Thats good . You are lucky. There is a LOT of nonsense out there.     My tradition comes down through Hohan Soken via    Kosei Nishihira ..... and I am trilled to have teachers that can actually teach real  old school 'kyusho art' .      

 

If you dont know who they are ;

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishihira_Kosei

 

- The rest of your  response to me has already been answered by   Mr.  Sternbach   ......  thanks Sterny     

 

( yeah, my system is derived from white crane too  -  or 'Okinawan Crane', as I call it .  )

Edited November 9, 2018 by Nungali

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, DJ CEIBA said:

@Nungali

 

ok so I mentioned I have 2 teachers.

It's sensei john's (SJ)school - he's a USA goju stylist from Harlem. HIS kata teacher his sensei Michael (SJ who I mentioned previously).

SJ teaches USA goju katas so I know: gaedon (taikyoku 1) empi go, Jin choi, gesakucho, saifa

SM teaches traditional Okinawa katas so I know: Sanchin breathing kata, gekisai 1/2/3, traditional Saifa, tensho

i'm a 44 year old green belt - barely not a beginner, but I train HARD!

i can actually perform all those katas reasonably well. Not just some shit I did one time.

this week 2 years ago (2016) My wife, daughter & I committed to going 3x a week.

wifey is and advanced orange, daughter is an advanced yellow. Very proud of them!!

 

 

I dont know any of those kata      

 

( I do the  '5 schoolies'   ;  1 - 5  Pinan , 1-3 Niharchin,  1 & 2 Passai, Rohai, Chinto,  Gojushiho, Hakatsuru.  5 with bo,  1 for jo and 1 for jo Vs boken, 3 Soken sai, 3 Soken kama, {and out of those I have developed 6 double machete kata},  2 with eku.  And numerous for boken, but they are not like the other kata, these only have 2. 3  or 4 moves )  .    These also are not just shit I did at one time .    

 

I do not have a coloured  belt or a grading .      

 

[DJ CEIBA]

I appreciate you guys taking a minute to share your thoughts

 

sorry about my initial, quick/incoherent reading, NUNGALI! I went back & read it again & got a totally different meaning - woops!! 

Loved that video!

 

Certainly blessed to be w/my senseis, MICHAEL. Yessir - Sensei Mike used to make trips to Fujian to study white crane. On a personal note, having cultured, older males around to pour into me has been a HUGE positive influence. 

 

I'm in karate for the unity & safety it'll provide in my family. Most of the time, I'm w/my little girl in the evenings & at least 2 of those nights she's in class - alongside me. On nights where my wife (a former pro dancer) isn't working late, we're ALL in there grunting. It's not the old New York City from the 80s movies, AND in a place like this - anything can happen. I need to KNOW they feel confident in any situation & that they can handle themselves if they have to. (Me too!)

 

As a 44 year old, I'm primarily looking at how can I be strong  and healthy through real old age when it comes. Strong/flexible muscles, lubricated joints w/full range of motion, all my organs at full capacity, all the systems working in harmony. I think the combination of kata & chi Kung (that's built into the kata?!) is designed for that. It's a theory I'm working with. In 2 years, I've certainly gotten stronger, thinner & more flexible. we'll see if I live a long time w/that & good diet/clean living.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, DJ CEIBA said:

I appreciate you guys taking a minute to share your thoughts

 

sorry about my initial, quick/incoherent reading, NUNGALI! I went back & read it again & got a totally different meaning - woops!! 

Loved that video!

 

Certainly blessed to be w/my senseis, MICHAEL. Yessir - Sensei Mike used to make trips to Fujian to study white crane. On a personal note, having cultured, older males around to pour into me has been a HUGE positive influence. 

 

I'm in karate for the unity & safety it'll provide in my family. Most of the time, I'm w/my little girl in the evenings & at least 2 of those nights she's in class - alongside me. On nights where my wife (a former pro dancer) isn't working late, we're ALL in there grunting. It's not the old New York City from the 80s movies, AND in a place like this - anything can happen. I need to KNOW they feel confident in any situation & that they can handle themselves if they have to. (Me too!)

 

As a 44 year old, I'm primarily looking at how can I be strong  and healthy through real old age when it comes

 

Dont have motorcycle accidents , dont work for years in a hospital, lifting  huge overweight people off their beds and the floor,  and dragging e-patients out of helicopters, and etc ...where you cannot get into the correct lifting position.  Dont train with people that damage your joints.  Dont force things ( I had two instructors that 'force stretched' to a stupid level - bioh died of MS (but I dont know if its connected ) .

 

 

9 hours ago, DJ CEIBA said:

 

 

 

. Strong/flexible muscles, lubricated joints w/full range of motion, all my organs at full capacity, all the systems working in harmony. I think the combination of kata & chi Kung (that's built into the kata?!) is designed for that. It's a theory I'm working with. In 2 years, I've certainly gotten stronger, thinner & more flexible. we'll see if I live a long time w/that & good diet/clean living.

 

 

 

 

And all of the above .....     maybe some hatha yoga or similar.  The diet is important ;   Okinawans used to be some of the longest living people on earth, until recently ;  they did a lot of exercise, hard work, diet of rice, sweet potato (better than potato ) - bitter melon with nearly every meal, and lots of sea food  ( when  clean fresh ocean currents flowed by the island  ) . Now it has more American military bases per Km than anywhere,  Maccas all over the place , polluted waters , junk food and they put spam on their sushi !   Yoiks !

 

 

[steve]

On 11/8/2018 at 10:45 PM, DJ CEIBA said:

@steve

 

i appreciate how understated you were.

could you lavish me with some of your insights into the finer points and insights you got from 10 years of this kata?

i'm really just mastering all the mechanical stuff right now.

Every now and again I forget myself & relax into it, AND I'd love it if you'd drop some jewels

 

One profound insight... practice!

Follow the basic instruction precisely.

Don't overthink it or get too caught up in expectations, goals, or projections.

Keep your mind fully open and connected to the body, the breath, the ground, the surroundings, let thoughts come and go as they please. It is very meditative, allow it to work its magic on you. It bears some similarity to the taijiquan slow forms and is valuable for deepening connection - between mind and breath, breath and body, body and environment. This is how to develop insight and precision working with this kata, not by listening to or reading about what others experience, through committed and precise practice.

I practiced Sanchin in the context of comprehensive martial training and meditation practice so it's a bit difficult to tease out particular effects and attribute them to Sanchin alone.