Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Why do you think Zen is not non-dualist?

 

I didn't say that.  I said that not all Buddhist school are non-dualist (e.g. Sarvastivadins) - I just thought that his training in Zen monasteries would have explained the status of yogacara in the history of Buddhist thought.

[Bindi]

32 minutes ago, Apech said:

I've googled around a bit to see if there are any good definitions of non-duality out there - and I can't find any (beyond the 'one without a second' business).  So I think this might be the problem as it has become a bit of a buzz phrase like 'energy' and 'consciousness' which people throw around willy nilly.   But because it is profound in nature you can't really do that.  It's also the reason people read 'non-dual' to mean 'monist' or even doubting the presence of duality in the ordinary sense.

 

This is definitely a big part of the problem, but not the only issue.  

 

Quote

Properly used (in my opinion) non-dual is not referring to a transcendent higher truth which reduces the ordinary world.  Actually it is saying in every normal sense there are subject/object, yin/yang and so forth - this is ok - but if you examine the essence of what those are they can be seen to be mutually interdependent. 

 

Is this saying that yin and yang have no real independent identity so do not truly ‘exist’, though to ordinary (deluded) minds yin and yang appear to exist? 

 

Does the subtle body have a real independent identity in Buddhism, or energy etc? I have no knowledge of mutual interdependence, so my questions are very basic. 

 

Quote

 

As in the TTC where it says without ugliness, beauty does not exist and so on.  They are relative - but then relative truth is not untrue or false.  It is true but so is absolute truth.  Both are true that there is subject/object and yin/yang etc. and at the same time there is not.  This is in effect why it is called non-dual and not mono.

 

This takes some time getting your head around - that there is a cup and yet there is not, that there is a self and yet there is not - it doesn't make an immediate appeal to the intellect and so is puzzling and paradoxical.

 

But we don't live in a world of pure essences.  We don't ordinarily perceive yin/yang at work directly - we infer their presence/activity.  In alchemical processes it is indicated that you work with the world of mixed elements.  That is the ordinary world/perception of it - to perform certain transformations - such as purification, distillation, circulation and sublimation - to first realise the pure yin/yang (or in this case heaven and earth) and then to realise their mutual interdependence and their unpolarised (wuji) essence.  In our ordinary state which is mixed or combined (like metal ore) our LDT contains 'water' which is yang but sandwiched in yin.  This element is considered dangerous/perilous because the power/intent is hidden in softness.  In the MDT the fire element is an inverse of this as it is yang on the outside and yin inside.  So like a flame it is outwardly bright/'hard' but inwardly yielding.  So we have in this arrangement a certain instability, perilousness (we don't know ourselves), an outwardly focussed mind actively seeking but not finding.  The alchemical process is to circulate and refine these elements until the yang in water recombines with the heart/fire and forms the pure yang of heaven and the yin lines combine to form earth.  This is a return to original unmixed purity.  Not the end of course but something of a beginning.

 

 

 

[Fa Xin]

44 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Non-duality is seeing the entire picture; duality is identifying the objects in the picture.

 

This is awesome 👍

[Bindi]

I think one of the really big issues for me is that certain things have to be sorted in the dual male/female yin/yang level before trying to go 'beyond'. 'Non-dualism' tends to ignore this need, and what they leave undone is the formation of a new relationship between yin and yang that replaces separation and chaos with cooperation and psycho-spiritual evolution. 

 

What yin and yang are and how they can be understood requires a lot more understanding to occur on my part, for now I just know that this duality once resolved is a vital foundation for genuinely fulfilling progress, not only because these two forces become complementary and 'powerful', but also because they are a vital stage in the development of the subtle energy body. 

[Fa Xin]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I think one of the really big issues for me is that certain things have to be sorted in the dual male/female yin/yang level before trying to go 'beyond'. 'Non-dualism' tends to ignore this need, and what they leave undone is the formation of a new relationship between yin and yang that replaces separation and chaos with cooperation and psycho-spiritual evolution. 

 

What yin and yang are and how they can be understood requires a lot more understanding to occur on my part, for now I just know that this duality once resolved is a vital foundation for genuinely fulfilling progress, not only because these two forces become complementary and 'powerful', but also because they are a vital stage in the development of the subtle energy body. 

 

Awesome! I think everyone is different, and your approach is the best one for you. It’s not any more or less valid than some Advaita person... it’s just wherever you are at. 

 

I think the only important thing is being open to change happening, and not being bound by a concept. 

[Apech]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

This is definitely a big part of the problem, but not the only issue.  

 

 

Is this saying that yin and yang have no real independent identity so do not truly ‘exist’, though to ordinary (deluded) minds yin and yang appear to exist? 

 

Does the subtle body have a real independent identity in Buddhism, or energy etc? I have no knowledge of mutual interdependence, so my questions are very basic. 

 

 

 

I think the terms deluded and illusionary should be expunged.  It all depends on what you mean by 'exist' - but to say there is a 'chair' is perfectly accurate descriptively - but to ask what exactly a chair is, is another question.

 

Nothing is independent according to the Buddhist view.

[flowing hands]

Duality exists because it is a part of the manifestation of the one. Duality exists and divides into the multiple manifestations of the the one which produces the bodies and energies of many states. Duality and the one are not separate things, nor are the manifestations. Seeing things in separation only leads to partial understanding.

People talk about Neidan; to practice and to understand real neidan one has to be given 'power' first of all. Without the passing on of 'power' one can never realise the subtle and powerful energies one is made of and that are contained in Nature. This is why traditional shamans have a head start on most other folk, for they are given 'power' from the off. Many Daoist sects come from the old wu practices and so this power was cultivated and kept by the head master of the sect. It was then passed on to the new master to hold and cultivate. The orgiinal source of this power came from the wu and from an Immortal to the wu. If you want to learn real neidan, beg an Immortal to teach you, otherwise you are on a very difficult path.

[steve]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think one of the really big issues for me is that certain things have to be sorted in the dual male/female yin/yang level before trying to go 'beyond'. 'Non-dualism' tends to ignore this need, and what they leave undone is the formation of a new relationship between yin and yang that replaces separation and chaos with cooperation and psycho-spiritual evolution. 

 

What yin and yang are and how they can be understood requires a lot more understanding to occur on my part, for now I just know that this duality once resolved is a vital foundation for genuinely fulfilling progress, not only because these two forces become complementary and 'powerful', but also because they are a vital stage in the development of the subtle energy body. 

 

While it may be important to understand what yin and yang are and to have a deep understanding of individuality, it is also important to understand that the foundational principle here is their mutual inter-dependence. Taiji theory is a profound exposition of dependent origination. Through your study and understanding of Yin and Yang, you understand mutual dependence more deeply than you think.

 

[3bob]

there is two in oneness, btw. two doesn't do jack without three, 

Edited August 25, 2018 by 3bob

[Apech]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

there is two in oneness, btw. two doesn't do jack without three, 

 

 

four is now sulking cos you didn't mention him.

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

four is now sulking cos you didn't mention him.

Four is forever.  And he is very emotional.  Those are just crocodile tears.

 

[silent thunder]

not sure what five is, but six is a snowflake for sure... and not one of the derogatory too sensitive snowflakes, the sacred geometric kind.

 

wait... we've strayed into numerology now...

 

 

[3bob]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

not sure what five is, but six is a snowflake for sure... and not one of the derogatory too sensitive snowflakes, the sacred geometric kind.

 

wait... we've strayed into numerology now...

 

 

 

five is a right side up or upside down star, (with all the implications)

Edited August 25, 2018 by 3bob

[3bob]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

four is now sulking cos you didn't mention him.

 

four is  a square and won't fit into a round hole, just ask MH..

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

While it may be important to understand what yin and yang are and to have a deep understanding of individuality, it is also important to understand that the foundational principle here is their mutual inter-dependence. Taiji theory is a profound exposition of dependent origination. Through your study and understanding of Yin and Yang, you understand mutual dependence more deeply than you think.

 

 

Quote

 

What is tàijí? It is generated from wújí. It is the mother of yīn and yáng. When it moves, it divides. At rest it reunites.

Tàijí zhě, wújí ér shēng, yīnyáng zhī mǔ yě, dòng zhī zé fēn, jìng zhī zé hé.
(太極者，無極而生，陰陽之母也，動之則分，靜之則合。)

 

 

There is yin and yang, but within white yang there is the black 'higher order and more powerful and balanced' yin essence, and within black yin there is the white 'higher wisdom and more balanced' yang essence, so True yin and True yang.

 

So Yin and Yang reveal 'higher' yin and 'higher' yang. At this point logically my mind says where there are two layers of yin and yang, (and previous to them there was a male/female duality, so there have been three layers of duality really,) there must be another more invisible layer of yin and yang which has birthed the three layers I have perceived. A Mother principle and a Father principle. 

 

And if a mother and father principle exist, it is always possible that an ultimate mother and father principle exist before the mother/father principle, and etc etc far beyond my comprehension. To all intents and purposes eternal duality.

 

This seems as possible as the taiji theory, and to my mind actually more likely. 

 

The balance between yin and yang I perceive as 'the observer', unmoving but still entirely related to and nourished by the yin/yang dynamic. There is probably a balance as well between True Yin and True Yang that I haven't yet perceived, but logically follows, and again that balanced observer can be projected to the mother/father principle, ultimate mother/father  etc etc, always ever more refined. An end point may be so far beyond my understanding that it seems foolish to name it just 'the mother', or 'non-duality' or whatever. 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Bindi

[Goldleaf]

On 8/18/2018 at 5:05 PM, rideforever said:

And if you are intelligent you will consider that Ramana Maharshi and J Krishnamurti taught for decades, and at the end said that nobody understood them.
Do you see what that means ?
It means they did not understand their own realisation well enough to instruct others.

So it's good not to be too confident in idealogies, and just work with a practical and hopeful spirit.

 

 

Hi Rodeforever,

 

Awesome post you made on page 2. 

 

But with the above I am not sure it does mean this.  Maybe they did understand their own realisation, but its just that others were not open and willing enough to understand...

 

Its like, how do you tell a self-absorbed person they are self-absorbed??  In chi-kung terms it is called a (huge) mental blockage.  It is only when you remove the blockage, that you realise it is was there in the way.  And there is a LOT in the way for most of us...

 

Cheers

GL

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

 

There is yin and yang, but within white yang there is the black 'higher order and more powerful and balanced' yin essence, and within black yin there is the white 'higher wisdom and more balanced' yang essence, so True yin and True yang.

 

So Yin and Yang reveal 'higher' yin and 'higher' yang. At this point logically my mind says where there are two layers of yin and yang, (and previous to them there was a male/female duality, so there have been three layers of duality really,) there must be another more invisible layer of yin and yang which has birthed the three layers I have perceived. A Mother principle and a Father principle. 

 

And if a mother and father principle exist, it is always possible that an ultimate mother and father principle exist before the mother/father principle, and etc etc far beyond my comprehension. To all intents and purposes eternal duality.

 

This seems as possible as the taiji theory, and to my mind actually more likely. 

 

The balance between yin and yang I perceive as 'the observer', unmoving but still entirely related to and nourished by the yin/yang dynamic. There is probably a balance as well between True Yin and True Yang that I haven't yet perceived, but logically follows, and again that balanced observer can be projected to the mother/father principle, ultimate mother/father  etc etc, always ever more refined. An end point may be so far beyond my understanding that it seems foolish to name it just 'the mother', or 'non-duality' or whatever. 

 

 

Quote

 

Tàijí can be translated as "grand ultimate" or "grand extremity." That refers to the most essential movements, or the very origin of motivation or force. Wújí (無極) means "no extremity," and means "no dividing" or "no discrimination." Wújí is a state of formlessness, of staying in the center: calm, quiet, and peaceful. When you are in the wújí state, there is no form or shape. Once you have generated a mind or have formed the mental shape with which you will influence physical reality, the motivation of dividing or discriminating starts. When this dividing is happening, wújí will become yīn and yáng. From this you can see what tàijí is: it is the motivation of distinguishment. When you have this motivation, the qì will then be led, and yīn and yáng can be distinguished.

Once this motivation (tàijí) stops, the motivator of division stops, and the yīn and yáng will once again reunite and return to wújí. From this you can see that tàijí is actually the motive force generated from the mind (yì, 意). From this force, the qì is led and circulates throughout the body. We can therefore conclude that tàijíquán is the martial style that trains the practitioner to use the mind to lead the qì, circulating it in the body and consequently generating the yīn and yáng states for health, fighting, or improving longevity.

 

 

https://legacy.ymaa.com/articles/2015/3/basic-taiji-theory

 

(The origin of your quoted text.)

 

The reason for the white dot within the black and visa versa in the Taiji symbol is that they are two-not-two.  That is when stillness is attained they become wuji (without polarity) - in fact this is not time dependent - taiji and wuji are continually co-dependent.  Wuji is not the head of a series of which taiji is the next - that is the linear way of looking at it.  Potential to move and movement are always present in every moment,

 

 

[Bindi]

Wújí (simplified Chinese: 无极; traditional Chinese: 無極; literally "without ridgepole") originally meant "ultimate; boundless; infinite" in Warring States period (476–221 BCE) Taoist classics, but came to mean the "primordial universe" prior to the Taiji 太極 "Supreme Ultimate" in Song Dynasty (960–1279 CE).

 

...The term Wuji first appears in a Daodejing context (c. 4th century BCE) about returning to one's original nature.

Know whiteness, Maintain blackness, and be a model for all under heaven. By being a model for all under heaven, Eternal integrity will not err. If eternal integrity does not err, You will return to infinity. (28, tr. Mair 1990:93).

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

There is yin and yang,

But Yin and Yang are only aspects, polarities, of Chi, Energy.  Energy is not duality - it is non-duality.  But as some as we start breaking energy down into it various aspects we have dualities.  But remember, it is we who are creating the dualities in our mind.  They really don't exist from the perspective of Oneness.

 

[Bindi]

7 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But Yin and Yang are only aspects, polarities, of Chi, Energy.  Energy is not duality - it is non-duality.  But as some as we start breaking energy down into it various aspects we have dualities.  But remember, it is we who are creating the dualities in our mind.  They really don't exist from the perspective of Oneness.

 

 

Energy is either more or less refined, and agreed it is not dual. Jing - Qi - Shen. Male/female and yin/yang duality seem to refer to the channels through which this energy flows, like the Ida and Pingala channels in Yoga, and the left/conscious and right/unconscious brain processes. It is body-based, but not just in our minds, there seems to be a deeper truth to male/female and yin/yang than just our minds creation. My position (today ) is that we cannot perceive beyond yin and yang, and any assertion that we can is deluded.

 

Quote

Qiji could cover 1,000 li in a single day, but if a worn-out nag takes the journey in ten stages, then it, too, can cover the distance. Are you going to try to exhaust the inexhaustible and pursue the boundless? If you do, then though you break your bones and wear out your flesh in the attempt, in the end it will be impossible to reach your goal. - Xunzi

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, there is surely more to it than just the energy itself.  We have Earth and we have our moon.  Surely there is a difference between the two.  The difference is how the energy is configured.

 

And continuing with this line of thinking, if energy can be configured in various forms then it must be that dualities are at play.

 

And it is obvious that if we plug a 110VAC motor into a 220VAC circuit we are going to have serious problems.

 

Same thing regarding energy work in alchemy.  Circuits can be blown.  And the appliance destroyed.

 

Regulate the energy.  Regulate its flow.  These are aspects (dualities) of energy.

 

[Apech]

15 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Energy is either more or less refined, and agreed it is not dual. Jing - Qi - Shen. Male/female and yin/yang duality seem to refer to the channels through which this energy flows, like the Ida and Pingala channels in Yoga, and the left/conscious and right/unconscious brain processes. It is body-based, but not just in our minds, there seems to be a deeper truth to male/female and yin/yang than just our minds creation. My position (today ) is that we cannot perceive beyond yin and yang, and any assertion that we can is deluded.

 

 

 

I can't understand why you keep trying to impose concepts on yinyang like 'channels'.  Right and left brain functions are not the same as conscious and unconscious.  Wuji and Taiji are two sides of the same coin, so to speak.  Non-duality is not abstraction, it is realising what is real.

 

 

[Marblehead]

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

Non-duality is not abstraction, it is realising what is real.

I didn't want to "Like" your post as it would appear that I am taking side in the discussion between your self and Bindi and I don't want to do that.

 

But what I quoted above I do agree with.  Non-duality is real.  But duality is real too.

 

 

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I didn't want to "Like" your post as it would appear that I am taking side in the discussion between your self and Bindi and I don't want to do that.

 

But what I quoted above I do agree with.  Non-duality is real.  But duality is real too.

 

 

 

I 'liked' your post because I'm not taking sides I'm just saying what I think.  I agree.  Duality is real.  I don't truck with 'illusory' and so on.  A chair is a chair and so on.  Where would we sit otherwise?  

[lifeforce]

From the Pali Canon.

 

Thag 1:49  Rāmaṇeyyaka :

 

 

Even with all the whistles & whistling,

the calls of the birds,

this, my mind, doesn’t waver,

for my delight is in

oneness.