Phoenix3

Is ‘Dao’ more easily translated as ‘God’, or ‘Nature’?

Recommended Posts

36 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

In contrast to this, the chinese always think in terms of "body/thing" (ti) and its "function" (yong). An apple tree is the body, producing apples is its function. There cant be no function without a body. Similarly there cant be no 'way' (whatever that means) without a source-thing.

 

This is nothing special to the chinese, the body and agent principle is quite universal.

 

If function requires a body though, then how do you explain energy, like radiation having an effect on health?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure i understood the question, but radiation is a stream of tiny particle thingies ripping holes in the flesh, which is bad for health. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

in a nutshell. when we say "dao is a way" we just substitute one word for another. What's a "way"?

 

A "way" is like the "way" to read.

 

The way to read is not a physical thing. It has not back or front, up or down, etc.

 

Dao is the way things happen, or "The Way it Goes"", which is also not a physical thing, but includes all things and all phenomena.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

In contrast to this, the chinese always think in terms of "body/thing" (ti) and its "function" (yong). An apple tree is the body, producing apples is its function. There cant be no function without a body. Similarly there cant be no 'way' (whatever that means) without a source-thing.

 

Dao does not have a body, and does not have a function.

 

Similarly, "Literacy" does not have a body, and does no functions of its own.
It is a "way" without a "source -thing".
It is not the "act" of "reading" - simply the "way" of reading.
And not even of any particular language.

And nothing is "made of" literacy, and nothing can "do" literacy.

 

Same way Dao, but Dao is much more than just "literacy" (which is still "kinda" a thing, but not a physical thing) while including it and many other ways many other things happen and are.

 

Dao is just a "Way" that "things" and the "functions" of those things happen, whenever they do, wherever they do.

 

Dao has no substance and no actions, yet all substances and actions happen according to Dao.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Ecclesiastes 1:9 NIV  ...
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

 

We can say that about all cyclic happenings.

 

But even cycles are spirallic and change - precesssion of the equinoxes, for example, takes varying times. And even Earth rotation speed changes as we go through space, changing the length of a day somewhat.

 

Many things are here that were not. You can say their "elements" were here and later combined, but at one point were not combined into a given "thing", and that "thing" did not exist.

 

A human baby is a good example. Before conception, maybe elements were there, or somewhere, but that was not that thing we call "baby".

 

Perhaps generically "baby" has happened before and will happen again, but not "that" baby.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God infers “other” generally

Nature infers diversity

The Way infers doing and or recipe

 

Awareness - Presence - Essence 

as in Divine Essence

or Divine presence 

or All pervading divine awareness

or any mix that is somewhat similar.

This feels less burdened and closer to an unencumbered non- denominational and un-identified inclusivity.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Dao has no substance and no actions, yet all substances and actions happen according to Dao.

I see) Thanks for the convo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

A "way" is like the "way" to read.

 

The way to read is not a physical thing. It has not back or front, up or down, etc.

 

Dao is the way things happen, or "The Way it Goes"", which is also not a physical thing, but includes all things and all phenomena.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

In layman's terms; shit happens.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find describing the experience of dao with words to be nigh on impossible...

 

When abiding in simple presence and awareness, I readily experience what I call dao, though the word whenever used to describe such, seems but a movement of mind and sound and so far, has never seemed to convey the experience.

 

This is not discouraging to me, rather, it is a reflection of the abiding truth in the first verse of the DDC.

 

My mind is useful for many tasks... but not to all tasks.  I seldom strive any more to force my mind to grasp the ungraspable.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Not sure i understood the question, but radiation is a stream of tiny particle thingies ripping holes in the flesh, which is bad for health. 

 

You’re right I guess. I suppose I was trying to be too smart.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/30/2018 at 4:58 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Please give a reason.


And if ‘God’ usually is seen as masculine, and ‘Nature’ is usually seen as feminine, then what gender is ‘Dao’?

 

"Usually seen" by who exactly?? I for one belong to a monotheistic tradition that explicitly says God has no gender. (Or any other attribute, for that matter).

 

And as a factual matter nature has both genders.

 

So God is neither masculine nor feminine (at least according to my faith specifically, as well as at least 1/3 of the world's population), and Nature is both masculine and feminine (objectively speaking).

The only traditions I've seen that traditionally see God as masculine, nature as feminine are European pagans, and they're not exactly widespread enough these days for their beliefs to be considered "usually".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People of the abrahamic faiths go to great lengths to show that the God of the Bible and/or old testament is a ‘he’.

 

Hindus and pagans agree nature has feminine qualities.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Tao' is a Chinese word meaning 'way', 'way of Heaven', 'Path' or 'road' or 'method'. It indicates a line or principle of conduct. There is no proper English term for 'Tao'. It means the 'Eternal Being'. 

 

Tao is the first cause from which all substances take their origin and all phenomena flow. The great Tao is all-pervading. All things depend on it for life. It is the mother of all phenomena, of heaven and earth. It existed before the Personal God. It is the father of God. It is the producer of God. It is the originator of heaven and earth. It is the mother of all things. 

 

Laozi believed that females are the mothers of all things and all human beings. In accordance with Tao, which generates everything, females are those that produce all things. Without females or mothers, there is nothing else in the world. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:
12 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Dao has no substance and no actions, yet all substances and actions happen according to Dao.

I see) Thanks for the convo.

 

Well, I am not "telling" people these things so much as asking what people think.

 

So I appreciate disagreement, and quotes and references that disagree.

 

So statement like: "Dao has no substance and no actions, yet all substances and actions happen according to Dao."

 

I just want to see if anyone disagrees, and why, or just whatever people might think of it.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018/7/31 at 5:58 AM, Phoenix3 said:

Please give a reason.

 

And if ‘God’ usually is seen as masculine, and ‘Nature’ is usually seen as feminine, then what gender is ‘Dao’?

 

If ‘God’ is usually seen as personal, and ‘Nature’ is usually seen as impersonal, then what is ‘Dao’?

 

Please don’t just repeat the predictable answer of ‘Dao is genderless’ or ‘the Dao that can be named is not the true Dao’, like a mindless drone. Not to say they are wrong, but it’s just a typical answer from someone who doesn’t think. Please provide a thoughtful answer, though I acknowledge thinking isn’t for everyone.

 

Thanks

 

Dao is 道. In Chinese, Dao means "way, road". It is a way to achieve a goal-成仙. God means a religion. But Dao is not a religion. It is a way to change yourself to produce a 仙. In western countries, there is no similar word to describe it, 仙.

仙 is produced by human beings. But God is not. God create human beings. 

 

Everyone has a chance to find the way to transfer oneself to produce one's own 仙. This way is called 道.

Edited by awaken
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@awaken thank you, but I’m referring to the metaphysical Dao, which seems to be a noun. That is, from the Dao came one (Wuji), from the one came two (yin and yang), from the two came three (yin, yang and taiji), and from the three came 10,000 things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Tao can be translated. 

 

3 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

I’m referring to the metaphysical Dao, which seems to be a noun. That is, from the Dao came one (Wuji), from the one came two (yin and yang), from the two came three (yin, yang and taiji), and from the three came 10,000 things.

 

If Wuji is one, then Tao is obviously not one. What is it then? is it zero? That would make mathematical sense but would be nonsensical otherwise. Therefore Tao cannot be God and Tao cannot be Nature since that would make Tao one and Wuji two, which it obviously is not. Our only logical conclusion is that Tao cannot be quantified, hence it's not a thing. Thus the saying "the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I don't think Tao can be translated. 

 

 

If Wuji is one, then Tao is obviously not one. What is it then? is it zero? That would make mathematical sense but would be nonsensical otherwise. Therefore Tao cannot be God and Tao cannot be Nature since that would make Tao one and Wuji two, which it obviously is not. Our only logical conclusion is that Tao cannot be quantified, hence it's not a thing. Thus the saying "the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao."

 

 

That sounds just like the properties of God and Nature. God is supposedly omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, which is nonsensical unless he is beyond common understanding, like Dao. Nature is also like how you describe as Dao, as what isn’t considered part of Nature? If both Nature and God are beyond all dualities, then that would mean they would both be equal to Dao too.

Edited by Phoenix3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

That sounds just like the properties of God and Nature. God is supposedly omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnipresent, which is nonsensical unless he is beyond common understanding, like Dao. Nature is also like how you describe as Dao, as what isn’t considered part of Nature? If both Nature and God are beyond all dualities, then that would mean they would both be equal to Dao too.

 

By this description I would classify Tao as Nature, since nature is both a thing and a set of characteristic behaviors to describe the thing's operations. For example "human nature" is predicated upon their being a human and is used to describe the characteristic behaviors of said human. God is typically credited as being the ultimate source and beyond description. Nature (the thing and its characteristic behaviors) are generally credited as being created by, and thus dependent upon, God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The word 'Tao' or 'Dao' is actually pronounced more like 'Dough'.

 God is a concept and has nothing to do with Dao. Dao is the intrinsic way all things gel together; the way manifests itself in all  things and those things obey powerful forces that we recognise and call natural. Intrinsic to these laws are other laws and so the way of many things are how they are done. If one masters the Dao of cooking for example, the food is cooked well and is nice to eat. etc etc. This is a simple explanation. So we have the Dao manifesting in millions of ways.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Spotless said:

Awareness - Presence - Essence 

as in Divine Essence

or Divine presence 

or All pervading divine awareness

or any mix that is somewhat similar.

 

 

 

Perhaps

to understand Tao,

we need a poet,

not a scholar

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Perhaps

to understand Tao,

we need a poet,

not a scholar

 

If the poet evokes, rather than describes, I agree ^_^

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

That is, from the Dao came one (Wuji), from the one came two (yin and yang), from the two came three (yin, yang and taiji), and from the three came 10,000 things.

 

My idea: "According with Dao (like saying "As It So Happens,,,"), from the Emptiness of Non-Polarity or "Nothing", Some One thing moved and thus existed, and thus established Polarity, or "YinYang". From Polarity and the movement between the poles of Polarity arise all the variations of things".

 

TaiJi means something like "Supreme Polarity". Some say Ji is "Extremity", but that is another meaning of Polarity, because without Polarity there is no "extreme". It's only by contrast that we could say something is extreme.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

@awaken thank you, but I’m referring to the metaphysical Dao, which seems to be a noun. That is, from the Dao came one (Wuji), from the one came two (yin and yang), from the two came three (yin, yang and taiji), and from the three came 10,000 things.

 

ok, so that is so LAOZI feeling :D

 

I wrote some stuff here... years ago...

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites