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Liu He Ba Fa : 6 Harmonies 8 Methods : Different Schools

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Posted (edited)

This 7hr video I believe is a transmission of the inner movements of Liuhe Bafa, shown in a Yiquan style (standing with small movements), by Wu Yinghua (or Yinghui).
1. Inner Exercises Drills, 2. Form and its Tuition, 3. Applications

 

 

 

Edited by rideforever
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Posted (edited)

I always like this one, by Chen Yiren, student of the Wu Yihui

 

 

Edited by rideforever
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On 3/4/2019 at 9:50 AM, rideforever said:

This 7hr video I believe is a transmission of the inner movements of Liuhe Bafa, shown in a Yiquan style (standing with small movements), by Wu Yinghua (or Yinghui).
1. Inner Exercises Drills, 2. Form and its Tuition, 3. Applications

 

I think this is Wu Yihui's son-in-law demonstrating and his son doing the talking.

 

I really like Mok Kei Fai and Choi Wai Lun's demos. Don't forget about David Chan if you want to look into the unification of Yiquan and LHBF or the Han family Yiquan guys.

 

 

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I'm sure those vids are cool but the traditional Yiquan training requires 2 hours a day of static exercise - for 2 years I think - before any movements are introduced.

 

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How's the training going rideforever ?

Liuhebafa is a beautiful art.

I really like this version. Wouldn't mind trying to learn this myself.

As someone who's practiced xingyi and yiquan (and a little taiji and bagua), it might be possible. 

https://youtu.be/kJjHvS7O4-Q

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Posted (edited)

@lifeforce

@voidisyinyang

@GreytoWhite

 

Last year I learnt the form from Jenny Lambs DVD, as well as spontaneous qigong from her.  And did it every day in the park in the 2nd half of the year and love it, and it's powerful energies.

However I have now taken on Chen more seriously as I feel Jan Silbertorff has guided me to a clear internal understanding of the energetics of Chen and am also learn Chen 19, just doing some now actually, also bought 3 DVDs from Chen Xiaowang on silk reeling.   Silk reeling you see if I do that I know I will become competent because that is step by step training the internal energy and it's move by move and very clear and you can feel the energy flowing out the dantien and into the body and back.  So I don't like wasting time, and in this crazy world I prefer to do 1 thing well or very well, rather than 10 badly.

But yes Chen is a little contained and doesn't have the beautiful flowing movements of Dragongate, Swimming Dragon Taiyi or Liuhebafa.   But ... 
It seems that Liuhebafa the internal energetics are not well understood meaning that you might completely waste your time .... and for me when I do it, I warm up with Chen silk reeling and then some Xingyi movements and do my best to feel what is inside .... but ....
As for the aforementioned XingyiLiuhebafa group in the PI with Rodriguez and David Chan ?  .... these people look to recreate the fighting power of the art which is legendary, but I see no evidence of internal energetic comprehension.
So .... not sure what the future holds.  If I cannot understand the internal energetics I might damage myself, and can anyone explain them ?
Anyway life is short, take what you can easily, train deep in little, then die with gold inside, this is a very imperfect world.

My main goal is not Taiyi but immortality so the physical movements need to be internally understood, I have no interest in fighting anyone, I did 5 years full contact already ... it's time to dig out the dark mountain and escape this hell.
But .... anyone can explain exactly what Liuhebafa is about internally ?
That 7 hr video is an attempt, but it's Chinesey.   
Anyone like to translate even first 10 minutes, would be nice !!!!

 

A lot of the Chinese dudes look like LHBF is something they try to keep alive from distant memory, weak floppy movements or wishful thinking.
That's why I followed JL's DVD, because she kicks ass, her movements are fast flowing powerful deeply trained, she also did Yang for many years and spontaneous, also is now Buddhist and healer, she is on the path.
 

 

Edited by rideforever
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@GreytoWhite

.... was talking about David Chan (1950-2012) lived 62 years, not long.
Always check the details.
Also saw this pushing hands video of DC, he appears to be doing not very much with the hands, and then generating large Fajin and whacking the student against the wall.   Yes lots of Fajin.   

But I am primarily concerned with immortality, spirituality, naturalness, longevity, truth, arrow to the Source, the art, beauty.

And I don't see it here.

Fajin does absolutely not make you immortal nor healthy.
Perhaps there are other videos of him more artistic ?
( - but this group in the PI, I salute their efforts to make regenerate LHBF - )

 

 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

 

 

Nice, I remember seeing this video a couple years ago and couldnt find it since. thanks for posting.

Edited by Fa Xin

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

@GreytoWhite

.... was talking about David Chan (1950-2012) lived 62 years, not long.
Always check the details.
Also saw this pushing hands video of DC, he appears to be doing not very much with the hands, and then generating large Fajin and whacking the student against the wall.   Yes lots of Fajin.   

But I am primarily concerned with immortality, spirituality, naturalness, longevity, truth, arrow to the Source, the art, beauty.

And I don't see it here.

Fajin does absolutely not make you immortal nor healthy.
Perhaps there are other videos of him more artistic ?
( - but this group in the PI, I salute their efforts to make regenerate LHBF - )

 

 

There may be more factors involved in his shortened life. However, I've noticed a few high profile internal master's who don't live long. I've suspected it may be related to the release of fajin on a regular basis. I can't be entirely sure though. I'll have to do some more research on it.

My goal, if you could call it that, is longevity. I want to grow old gracefully, in the best health I can.

I see the internal arts as crucial to this goal. Of course, diet, mental well being and genetics play a big part.

In the xingyi lineage I practice in, folks were living until 100 years of age, 90's were very common. Plus they didn't deterioate much as they aged. I'm talking good eyesight and hearing, flexibility and strength, virus resistance up until their last days. Dying peacefully when their time is up.

Some things that are emphasized in their training is NOT hitting bags, pads. Fajin is non-existent. All movements, striking, forms, standing are internalised to the maximum in a process which is constantly ongoing. Softness and relaxation. Far too many videos I see in xingyi look like karate.

That's why I like the look of LHBF. It takes the internalisation to beyond what I've ever seen, maybe yiquan is similar in this respect.

 

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26 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

That's why I like the look of LHBF.

 

So, which is the lineage that you train in and has all these benefits ?
Let's take a look at them ?

 

It is absolutely certain that having energetic power can be zero use for awakening, because these energies can be cultivated without any self-realisation.  So ... and many masters/ teachers/ traditions promise higher and higher energies ... but have no "being" (no self) within ... that must be taken as a deep warning.   And you see this pattern everywhere.   Even some "highly respect" teachers connect to taobums.

 

With ZZ many people use force (iron shirt) to generate power and have no interest in the downward surrender through the central channel into the Source.   Looks the same but is not the same.

 

My opinion is that without proper knowledge of the internal energetics of LHBF there is a risk of wrongly training the energies,and that worries me,   Jenny Lamb puts power into the form which is a way of testing the truth of it, people who do weak forms never see the result of them and so cannot determine if they are BS or not, and may train defective energy patterns which will hurt you.

 

Chen I believe is must better for this as it is well understood.  Plus if you wish more fancy stuff ... you can do Chen New Frame which has complex energy waves.   Still Chen is not so beautiful as some Taiyi I have seen.

 

Also there is a man in Texas who teaches DragonGate and I trust him, he is a strong teacher.   These have beautiful open natural forms.  (just for reference).   Good man.
 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Wang Ji Wu lineage xingyi. Longevity of it's practitioners is the main reason I train.

Edited by lifeforce

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On 09/03/2019 at 12:23 PM, rideforever said:

My opinion is that without proper knowledge of the internal energetics of LHBF there is a risk of wrongly training the energies,and that worries me

 

A conversation I had many years back with someone who practiced LHBF may shed some light on the energetic aspect.

He said that when practicing the form, or any of the associated neigong, your focus was on feeling as if water was resisting you. Hence the nickname "water-boxing" From this there is a definite crossover with yiquan, in particular the practice of of shili which I have some experience with. 

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2 hours ago, lifeforce said:

A conversation

 

The idea of water resisting you ... is a common one, for instance they use that in Chan Si Gong.   But it is not sufficient at all.   In Chen they have clear idea of how the qi leaves the dantien, flows through Ming Men, rises in the back out through the ear to the blade of the hand and so on.  And they have a drawing of qi movement for each posture in a 70 movement form.
Then they have a training curriculum, for instance Chen Xiaowang trains 10 Chan Si Gong movements as initial curriculum, which creates an outer structure of specific qi routes (pictures can be provides), then there is a second set which trains front/back energy structures.
Etc. ... they have very clear idea of what they are doing.
In LHBF I think they don't know, and whatever they train may be harmful as a result.
But of course one may "like it" in general and so on.


In terms of principles; this world is extremely untrustworthy with many wrong things being done, therefore it is good to go through a certain, if less glamorous, route, initially.   

Later one might wish to express oneself and choose what feels good.

That seems like a wise way of selecting what to do.

 

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

In LHBF I think they don't know, and whatever they train may be harmful as a result.

 

Seeing as this art has allegedly been around a lot longer than taiji, I think they actually DO know.

Have you heard of anyone who has 'harmed' themselves by practicing LHBF?

 

1. Wang Xiangzhai, the creator of Yiquan, made a public statement regarding Wu Yihui, the modern reformer of Liuhebafa, in 1928 saying, "I have traveled across the country in research, engaging over a thousand people in martial combat, there have been only 3 people I could not defeat, namely Hunan's Xie Tiefu, Fujian's Fang Yizhuang and Shanghai's Wu Yihui."

 

2. During the the 9th century, the Daoist sage, Chen Xi Yi (Chen Tuan) of the Hua Shan mountains, who was reknown for his methods of cultivating health and longevity, developed a set of movements known as Liu He Ba Fa, the “six harmonies and eight methods” of mind and intention. Recognized as one of the most prestigious and excellent forms of internal art, the moves of Liu He Ba Fa are designed to stimulate and massage the internal organs, while exercising the spine. This form consists of 66 movements, which are often noted for their graceful, spiral turning. These movements are an 'intensifier' of the turning and stretching effects that are already evident through the practice of Daoist Internal Arts. Movement originating from the spine forms the essence of Liu He Ba Fa, and this art is most beneficial to students who have already developed some degree of spinal articulation through practice in other Daoist Arts.

 

3. The newly acquired Hua Shan Mountains became the training grounds for many of Chen Tuan's practices. It was here that he developed Liu He Ba Fa, otherwise known as “Six Harmonies Eight Methods.” It is said that Chen Tuan's earlier fascination with water deeply influenced the movement and power used in Liu He Ba Fa. The essence of this style is to demonstrate how energy becomes matter which will eventually return back to its original state of energy.

 

There's plenty of positive feedback around if you do some digging. Like I mentioned earlier, my 17 years xingyi experience and a little yiquan would probably stand me in good stead pursuing this.

Just because you have chosen to do Chen, doesn't mean that other arts have faults, however hard you look to find them. Each has it's own merits. We all have our own path and I'm glad that you started this topic as it's given me a lot to mull over.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lifeforce said:

Six Harmonies Eight Methods

 

Well ... all these quotes don't mean anything to me. 

What means something to me, is accurate information, as yet I have found zero internal comprehension for LHBF, and I have looked.  The classic statements of 6 H 8 M, could be applied to any martial art and in deed many other quans use the terms 6 H ... or 8 M.

Isn't alignment and integration of the 6 and 8 the point for all arts ?

What I do know is that the big school in Vancouver run by Helen Liang's dad, they have a strong practice but for LHBF they actively invite students to change aspects of the form.   That means they don't own the original.
And Wu Hai who taught Jenny Lamb, after studying many variants of LHBF came up with a new variant that uses more Tai Chi.  (interview attached earlier in thread) and is essentially a new form.
Then there is Liu Xialing (supposedly top instructor), in his DVD there is an interview where he says that LHBF has been partly lost and he invites students to recreate it.
Then there is David Chan dying at 62, and Weilun Huang another top LHBF teacher who died at 63 - who had a beautiful form.
Yun Yin Sen, I listened to him but was vague.

Terence Dunn's DVD is extremely vague and unfollowable, the movements have lost coherence.
Wang Xiangzhai made some statement about LHBF 100 years ago, but who knows what he was actually doing ?
Besides being the best at killing (myself or others) is not my priority.

Anyway, dying at 62 is not in my plans.
This world is messy, so it makes sense to stick to Chen.
I truly wish I had found something better, I did look.
Any if you or anyone does find something concrete please let me know, but frankly Chen Xiaowang is unusual for Chen or any Tai Chi tradition to have come up with such clear plans; most teaching groups do not have such internal understanding, it would seem.

 

Yiquan is the way to go for fans of Wang Xiangzhai, it's pretty much idiot proof and requires time and a lot of standing.   Perhaps you could go from there into the LHBF form, that might work.

For me personally it is not artful enough and not internal enough and not spiritual enough.

I don't want to die being the best fighter in the world, because I don't want to die, and my practices have to help me in that regard.

Edited by rideforever
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1 minute ago, rideforever said:

Anyway, dying at 62 is not in my plans.

This world is messy, so it makes sense to stick to Chen.
I truly wish I had found something better, I did look.
Any if you or anyone does find something concrete please let me know

 

I plan on being around, and healthy, a lot longer than 62 also.

I still have a theory that issuing ridiculous amounts of fajin may have something to do with these masters dying early.

Chen is a really good choice, it may turn out to be the best thing for you. For me, I might just stick with my xingyi and yiquan. It's what I know best and has served me well enough so far.

Best wishes and good luck with your practices.

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17 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Yiquan is the way to go for fans of Wang Xiangzhai, it's pretty much idiot proof and requires time and a lot of standing.   Perhaps you could go from there into the LHBF form, that might work.

For me personally it is not artful enough and not internal enough and not spiritual enough.

I don't want to die being the best fighter in the world, because I don't want to die, and my practices have to help me in that regard.

Yiquan's shili practice looks very similar to the movement in LHBF form. I believe there's crossover material there. So many of the internals compliment each other.

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4 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

Best wishes and good luck with your practices.

 

Yes thank you and the best to you.

 

One thing even a LHBF beginner like me notices is the energy flowing outwards from the Dantien with the forearm often coming out and up like a dagger in the forms.   This might be good for forming attacking energies but will it be healthy?   Perhaps there is a sort of arc of energy stabbing outwards before circling around to rejoin the Dantien ?  Also, I often had the sense of the transition of the water > wood cycle, where the water starts rising and falling like a tsunami - this kind of energy perhaps is LHBF, i.e the active aroused water element.
With Xingyi the metal attacking, never retreating, it is hard and good for fighting .... but longevity ?


Every day I do about 1hr ZZ, 1/2 hr Silk Reeling, 1 hr Chen form (form 19 from Chen Xiaowang, about half way through).
It feels good to know inside what to do, and each day I become more accurate, for instance this week I have understood the yang-yin transition and how to keep power through the legs during this >> it is much improved.   Also the Chen 19 form, I feel it connecting accurately as an expression of Silk Reeling ... in other words the practice is tight and integrated and understood all the way through.   That, feels good.
Also I start to get intuition arising from the Dantien, meaning I become sensitive in life to the flow of yin yang in ordinary every day life - I feel something starting there.

 

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Oh man - no wonder you're confused. You're doing 10,000 things at once and are learning from DVDs. If you don't already have a live instructor near you go get one or move to where one is. I've got transmissions from two different lineages now one has xingyi and bagua and the other I'm only learning bagua - both do things differently. I also learned Chen village method about 10 years ago and have gone around to touch hands (not always fight) with people in all kindsa different styles including Aikido, Eskrima, Silat, I Liq Chuan, Han family Yiquan, Yang taiji, and Chen Practical Method. Some things are the same - a LOT is different. Don't think you're building the same skill in Chen as you will in Liuhebafa - probably won't even get the same flavor from LHBF teacher to LHBF teacher dependent on their other experience. Even within my own lineages the instructors express their styles differently.

 

 

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On 3/10/2019 at 11:50 AM, Fa Xin said:

I like the continuous flow, no starting and stopping. 

 

Other internal forms can be practiced in this manner. Often times in taiji the starting and stopping is unintentional. It came with learning the form in sections. Logical breakpoints were identified for teaching purposes. My teachers usually started and ended with a complete form, regardless of the ability of the student to keep up. In between, sections of the form were worked on for correction. But by emphasising the full form, the continuity of flow was conveyed.

 

I actually had one instructor tell me that it was important in forms competition to have a slight pause between movements so the judges could assess posture. I did not buy that. I figured if they were judges they would be able to observe correct posture and alignment even while in transition.

 

Still, the advice was helpful in that it helped me me develop a better sense of what competition was all about.  I did not compete thereafter. :D

 

btw ... I did not know there was much interest or practice in LHBF. Interesting to see.

 

 

 

 

Edited by OldDog
Grammar error
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6 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

Other internal forms can be practiced in this manner. Often times in taiji the starting and stopping is unintentional. It came with learning the form in sections. Logical breakpoints were identified for teaching purposes. My teachers usually started and ended with a complete form, regardless of the ability of the student to keep up. In between, sections of the form were worked on for correction. But by emphasising the full form, the continuity of flow was conveyed.

 

I actually had one instructor tell me that it was important in forms competition to have a slight pause between movements so the judges could assess posture. I did not buy that. I figured if they were judges they would be able to observe correct posture and alignment even while in transition.

 

Still, the advice was helpful in that it helped me me develop a better sense of what competition was all about.  I did not compete thereafter. :D

 

btw ... I did not know there was much interest or practice in LHBF. Interesting to see.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this. I do some pauses with my Tai chi forms too. And sometimes with my Xingyi I pause and hold San ti. But my Bagua practice is always moving 😀

 

Now that I think of it, my Tai chi form has very subtle differences each time I practice - I feel it reflects my mood. Sometimes it’s very very slow, other times I will add Fajin. I’ve even done it fast like a Shaolin form. And backwards too! How can you learn the material unless you play with it 😁

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15 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

How can you learn the material unless you play with it.

 

True enough ... and how can you learn your limits without practice in different ways.

 

 

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