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Liu He Ba Fa : 6 Harmonies 8 Methods : Different Schools

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Recently I ordered Liu Xiaoling's LiuHeBaFa DVD which took some time to ship over to the UK, when it arrived I was surprised to find they shipped Terry Dunn's DVD by mistake.

 

But  I am wondering if existence is trying to tell me something, use this DVD instead,I have never heard of Terry Dunn.   The reason I bought the Liu Xiaoling's DVD was because his movements seem precise and clear, I was concerned this form would be hard to follow and I feel uncomfortable doing vague movements without precision or meaning, (it's already a complex form), and also he is an older man with an air of authority.

 

Perhaps someone has some experience to share ?

Edited by rideforever
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I am unsure of exactly what it is you are asking, but here is a thread dedicated to Terry Dunn's practice. You will find Mr. Dunn as @zen-bear, an active participant, here on The Dao Bums. I am sure he would be happy to personally answer any questions you might have.

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This was on Terry Dunn's website :

 

SIX HARMONIES & EIGHT METHODS ("LIU HE BA FA") BOXING

Also known as "Water Boxing", Six Harmonies & Eight Methods boxing was created in the during the Sung Dynasty by Chen Hsi-I, a famous Taoist of Huashan who also is credited with having created the Tai Chi ruler art and other methods of qigong. Liu He Ba Fa is one of the most beautiful martial arts I have ever seen; I feel most fortunate to have learned two versions of this art from two excellent masters. The 6H/8M form trains the practitioner to respond naturally and most fluidly to multiple opponents approaching from all directions; its martial techniques frequently shift from front to rear as well as from side to side. This art's cultivation of internal energy is, of course, very complete, and very refined--according to "six cooperations," and "eight methods." Here are performances by four great masters of this wonderful art:

 

by Master Andrew Chung

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDeieEMAVPE&NR=1

This is my favorite demonstration of Liu He Ba Fa that I have seen thus far--besides that of my teacher, Master Chan Ching Kai in New York. Like a great jazz classic, everytime I view this, it teaches me (many) new variations of the form that I practice. Master Chung's Water Boxing Form demonstrated in this clip is a combination of the form I learned from my first teacher, the late Dr. York Why Loo, and my present teacher, Master Chan. As far as form can reveal function, Master Chung's form reveals real kung-fu at a high level. I will be viewing this footage for a long time.

 

by Master Peter Ziboce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYga-oL6jOw&feature=related

This demonstration of the first section of the 6H/8M Form is thrilling to me because Sifu Ziboce very clearly shows how he directs the internal flow of qi through his movements. His expression of this art is also very "musical," as confirmed by his other demonstrations on his website.

 

by Master Liu Xiaoling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEVmueWDJM4

Liu Xiaoling is one of the most famous Water Boxing masters in China and the world. His name in China is almost synonimous with Liu He Ba Fa. His form, however, is completely unrecognizable to me based on the two versions of the Form that I have learned.

 

by Master Yun Yin Sen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEVmueWDJM4

Master Yun Yin Sen is also one of the most renowned practitioners of 6H/8M. This is clearly seen in his performance of his "Standing Form", which is the same classic 510 posture 6H/8M form--only it is performed standing in place without any change of stances. This is an advanced method of practice in Water Boxing to increase internal energy development and to perfect martial skill.

 

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Hi rideforever,

 

I have several DVDs from Master Liu Xiaoling and specifically the one on Liu He Ba Fa. IMO, it is more a DVD for a demonstration of the form although Master Liu Xiaoling is breaking the form in several parts on the DVD. But it is obviously a very subtle art and I doubt one can even get the basics of it unless one has already a background of years of Chinese Internal Martial Arts. On the other hand,  I find his DVD on Xingyiquan very good. Of course, you can't really learn with a DVD, but you can get some taste of basic xingyiquan footwork and drills. I am not sure he is still teaching. But I am a fan of his Xingyiquan. To me it is a special area of expertise of his.

As far as Liu He Ba Fa goes, don't be surprise to come across very different forms of it. There are a lot of styles.

 

I don't have the DVD by Terry Dunn so I can't comment on it, although, his Chi Kung DVDs are very good.

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Today I have got 3 version sides by side, analysing them movement by movement.   Dr Loo (from Terry Dunn's DVD), Liu Xiaoling, and Helen Liang.   Surprisingly I can actually match the forms together although not all the movements are the same, there are some additional movements and some gaps.

And this is my assessment so far :

 

Dr Loo : he has a beautiful water movement must have been practising for years, all his movements are fully joined together and fluid, very watery, however it is very difficult for me to feel the precise shape of the energy well, or of his limbs, I can feel it but not clearly, after all the years of practice it seems to have become eroded of detail.

 

Liu Xialong : this is Xing Yi style in my opinion, and he moves quite strangely a bit like an elephant with his arm curved up in front of him.  Precise but lacking fluency, the approach of a university teacher.  But Xing Yi is not what I want.

 

Helen Liang : her movements are very precise and intricate, watery, but she has nowhere near the fluency of Dr Loo, also there is a lot of emphasis on Fa Jin, as well as knee destroying low stances and very showy for the crowd.  Nevertheless very good.

 

I will try to do Helen Liang's form, but removing the Fa Jin, low stances, or showeyness .... basically in the style of Dr Loo.   If that is not possible then I will follow Dr Loo which I am happy to as it is very comfortable, but the precision is not possible for me to comprehend from the video but it would be worth it anyway to embody his water he has which is the main goal of the form for me.

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This is Narcyz Latecki who has an amazing LHBF a student of the Liang family.
He also runs the Athletic Balance School in Acton MA.
 

 

 

Edited by rideforever
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Received the Liu Xialing DVD yesterday.
In an interview he says that he comes from a family of opera singers and some of the DVD is shot on a stage, he has a very graceful beautiful movement like from an opera.   He studied XingYi and Bagua for 27 years, and still wakes up at 3am to practice, some students meet him at 530am for 2 hours of practice, then he teachers for 2 hours.   He is very committed.   He seem to see the word "water" as simply describing fluid movements rather than water element.   Also he sees the tradition is a work in progress and we should explore together. Interestingly whilst ripping this DVD I noticed the title is "Xingyi 3", which probably was the original aim of the project. Well someone should add in the other forms, along with training for fighting techniques.   Otherwise these DVDs are disembodied single forms.
Something in me is more attracted to the martial style of Mr Latecki.
Tracksuit man is making a really good go of martialising it, art, but not too much art.
I found yet another DVD for £10 on ebay, this time by  Chen Xiangqiang, see how that is.
Let's call it a hobby.

lll.jpg

fff.jpg

Edited by rideforever

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I got the Liuhebafa Fist DVD by Chen Xiangqiang ... but I just don't see anything there.  Looks a bit ropey to me, students poor standard, not sure what they are doing.   Maybe it's just me.   Apart from that there are lots of individual exercises and hours of correcting students.   But like I said I don't see anything.

Also happened to see on youtube someone who had followed Terry Dunn / Dr Loo's DVD.  But looked weak inside.

And Liu Xioaling is doing a ballet xingyi.

 

The only people that are taking it seriously are the Liang students.

 

Also Andrew Chung (mentioned by TD) also seems to be good, but his movements are too well integrated to learn from; also he should give up on the donuts.

 

Looks like nobody really remembers this form anywhere, so it's a question of reconstructing.

Edited by rideforever

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On 09/08/2018 at 8:34 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

Thanks, I did see that video earlier today.
Well, it's in the style of Helen Liang, but he seems a bit rubbish, although he does occasionally put some nice flowing movements in.  But he doesn't take the form seriously.  Look at Mr Latecki, it's the same style but he kicks ass.

Edited by rideforever
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Not so much for water boxing blue suit has a lot of tension to get the power out, very stiff.

 

The video above is performance art.

 

Wen Wu Ching is well versed in many internal styles and his student has Kung Fu as you can see. I am not comparing anything just another video on topic. I like people to see application like the throat  grab it gives meaning to the body movements not just waving hands around plus this is another short range fighting style. 

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12 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

 

Yes I have 3 versions of Helen Liang's form, which is good but she is also showing off too much.   But I watch and try to do it without the showing off.

 

Wu Wen Ching is doing the main form with choreographed students coming in at certain times > well all I can say about this kind of presentation is that I find it ridiculous.   The "applications" are quite poor and wouldn't work if the student didn't co-operatively attack off balance and fall over on cue.   Plus he begins the form with these psychedelic visuals in the back !!!   Terry Dunn's DVD has got this psychedelic spaced out track in the background, and the student of his that I saw had the same psychedelic track going on ... rather than treating the form seriously.

 

HL's form when she was young was a bit different, it's interesting to see.   And the BTG seems to be a recent/ current student of her father, and he does things a little differently again.   It appears the family is trying to reconstruct the form and modifying it from year to year according to what they discover - which is the right approach in this situation.


I will be trying to learn it from BTG / Helen, but then integrating it like Andrew Chung, at least that is half a plan.

 

I have also downloaded half a dozen warmups from the Xingyi and Bagua tradition, good stuff, gives you a good workout and gets your energy shaped for Liuhebafa.

Edited by rideforever
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A beautiful performance by Sifu Jenny Lamb teacher in the Wu Hai lineage.
This is without doubt the best performance I have seen and by a long way.
She has extremely refined and accurate movements, but they are also silky smooth, fast powerful and personal.
The result of deep training and love.

 

 

 

Edited by rideforever
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I met Paul many yrs back in Hong Kong

 

home.jpg

 

He teaches this style  his web site gives locations for those interested

http://www.liuhebafachuan.com/locations.html 

 

 

 

 

 

"Grandmaster Mok Kei Fai performing the public form Zhuji. This performance was in November 2012 at the First Liuhebafa General Meeting & World Conference in Hong Kong."

 

 

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Wus%204%20difficulties.jpg

 

I found Paul to be quite skilled, very open and willing to share his art.

We met when I was studying taiji in Beijing, during a visa trip, 

 

To stay another couple of months I had to be out of country for one day.  Hong Kong close by met the requirements. 

 

"paulroberts.jpg

Paul Roberts has a diversified background in various martial art styles, including the internal styles of Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi and Yichuan. Though having personally trained Liuhebafa directly under several of Chen Yi Ren's disciples and students, he received formal initiation into the Liuhebafa family, and entered the indoor line of successors.

 

Paul Roberts has committed himself to the Liuhebafa tradition, teaching seminars internationally and is involved with pertinent research and development. Currently, he is the elected director of the International Liuhebafa Internal Arts Association, and lives in Hong Kong where he instructs at the Liuhebafa Internal Arts Institute of Hong Kong.

-Director of the International Liuhebafa Internal Arts Association
-Instructor of the Liuhebafa Internal Arts Institute of Hong Kong
-Founder of the Liuhebafa Internal Arts Institute of Japan"

http://www.liuhebafachuan.com/genealogy.html

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36 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

I am in the UK which sounds to HK but which is 5,900 miles different !!!

 

I think at the moment I will just use a DVD it's about 5th on my list of things I am doing in my life.

 

But I certainly see that my results will be much lower than such a person as Paul.   But I have my priorities.

 

 

Edited by rideforever

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9 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I am in the UK which sounds to HK but which is 5,900 miles different !!!

 

 

Don't quite get your point.

 

You could contact him through the site he may know of somebody in your location.

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1 hour ago, windwalker said:

You could contact him through the site he may know of somebody in your location.

Okay I emailed him let's see.

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Wow Jenny Lamb is amazing interview :

 

 

 

 

Here is AG Howey a teacher in the Liang tradition.

 

Edited by rideforever

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On 18/08/2018 at 10:00 AM, windwalker said:

 

 

Paul Roberts and that organisation is no longer teaching actively and he says to beware of claims of authenticity by anyone.

 

Which I have been concluding for myself.

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12 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Paul Roberts and that organisation is no longer teaching actively and he says to beware of claims of authenticity by anyone.

 

Which I have been concluding for myself.

Interesting, his reply from an email I presume.

 

Haven't connected with him in a long time good guy good skill.

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Sifu Jenny Lamb studied with Grandmaster Yu Hai.

 

Yu studied the different interpretations of Six Harmonies intensively, taking the best of each, and combined it with some elements of Chen taiji. In the end, he came up with something new that wasn't really liuhe bafa anymore. He calls it yuhui daofa (universal rule method ). "Some forms were created during the revolution period," elaborates Yu. "Now everything made then is considered bad. Yuhui daofa means it is everlasting. It's a true method." Yu doesn't really teach or demonstrate this new form. It's really just for his personal private practice.

Today, Grandmaster Yu is still promoting martial arts. He is a visiting head coach at several martial schools, one in Guangdong, one in Beijing, another in Zhejiang. But after his nine-year respite, he now feels he's just a normal martial arts teacher. "Now some call me the 'King of Mantis,' but I never claim that," says Yu emphatically. "People just wanted to say that. I'm just a martial arts master and teacher." Yu doesn't want to be a celebrity like Jet Li, nor some lofty, unapproachable master. "I'm not afraid to go out in public. I can still ride my bicycle to buy vegetables at the market. If you say 'hi,' I'm happy to talk to you."

 

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=688

 

Happily her DVD is also very the best I have seen, so that's the end of the journey for me.

 

Edited by rideforever

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