What else is there to do, after being able to meditate on emptiness?

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

It's Zen's fault that our forests are getting destroyed.

 

Hi Michael Sternbach,

 

I beg to differ...

 

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

we can think the word elephant and then look at the actual elephant

that's what i meant by words help me remember

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

 

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

I'm getting a better idea of what emptiness means, and there's some good comments here, but really, is it right to have a thread about Buddhist terminology in a Taoist forum?  Buddhism has it's own forum, over there -->

 

I'll consider that emptiness means something like stillness, since i'm a Taoist that likes to use plain English, and now I'll happily forget what emptiness means.

Yeah, well, that's why I'm here.  To make sure that Taoism is represented.  There really is a difference between Buddhism and Daoism regarding emptiness.

 

I like your take.

[Starjumper]

36 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

that same zen master would pinch the heck out of your mind now that you negated emptiness

 

No, he would give me flowers instead, because I only negated a useless meaningless word, not the underlying principle.  Like I said earlier though, I already forgot all this silliness (old timers disease has it's perks, yes?).  Even words with meaning don't do a lot for me.

[Starjumper]

16 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

That picture's only worth about 600 words.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

 

i meant dream in the sense of creation of mind. you can't KNOW that what you perceive actually exists beyond the existence of the perception itself, you can just trust your senses, and hold the belief that something like senses exist in the first place... not that i think they don't, but that's not the point...

i'm not sure if i can get my point through, i'll give up for now 

You're doing fine.  I understand what you are saying.  It's just that mostly I disagree with you.

 

Yes, dream state is a different concept from conscious awareness state.  In other discussions I had to finally agree that dreams are real for the dreamer.  But they are not real for anyone else.  A dream is a personal thing.

 

An yes, I can recall to back when I dreamed often I have dreamed that I was somebody else.  But dreaming it didn't make it true even though my dream-thoughts had me thinking it was so.

 

This is the importance of consciousness awareness.

 

 

Quote

 

 

here's the edited version of the part that you have responded to. i stole your definitions and altered them, so now it might make more sense

 

i equate emptiness with substance. silence is unshaped substance, thought/any perception is shaped substance. there's no difference, two states of the same ...

I think we would likely form an agree ment if we talked about this a little more.  Yes, silence is unshaped substance.  In Taoism this is the state of "wu".  That is, potential not yet manifest. 

 

 

 

Edit to add:  And no, I'm not joining you and Starjumper in your discussion.  But I'm reading the posts.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

21 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

 

 

- LimA

Yep.  That's an elephant.

 

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yep.  That's an elephant.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Can you see the elephant?

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

12 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

You're doing fine.  I understand what you are saying.  It's just that mostly I disagree with you.

 

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

--- ditto ---

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

... no nose pinching please...

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

I agree - nose pinching is painful:

 

 

So no nose...

 

Here - I agree with you.

 

Why  ?

 

I agree!

 

- LimA

Edited July 2, 2018 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

... this thread is about emptiness...

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

How about these for emptiness...?

 

 

 

It is empty - nobody is around.

 

So nobody pinches nobody's nose.

 

You ?

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

47 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Edit to add:  And no, I'm not joining you and Starjumper in your discussion.  But I'm reading the posts.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

But of course.

 

I also...

 

The mountain in Ecuador is not empty relative to - Jing => Chi => Shen?

 

- LimA

Edited July 2, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

It's Zen's fault that our forests are getting destroyed.

 

Oh , That's! where Zen gardens come from . 

[Limahong]

51 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

That picture's only worth about 600 words.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Why? What's missing?

 

How about this...?

 

 

I will not post any pictures on adult elephant activities. They are pornographic...

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

8 minutes ago, Stosh said:

That's! where Zen gardens come from .

 

Here Stosh,

 

Zenith at its best ¿

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

10 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Here Stosh,

 

Zenith at its best ¿

 

- LimA

I think the word comes from an alternate pronunciation of chan,  L. 

Its like saying you somehow defeated existence because you took the chain of logic past its rational terminus. 

Existence didn't end , there was nothing to defeat, nor a way to try. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Stosh

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

... chan ...

 

Hi Stosh,

 

 

Chan mali chan - a Malaysian folk song.

 

 

- LimA

[Wayfarer]

Being that there is only one thing; that we call the Dao then fullness is the Dao and Emptiness is the Dao, same too for big and small, here and there, black and white, yin and yang. back and front. 

 

In a sense when we argue over emptiness and what it is and is not we are saying.  This Dao, is it like that Dao or this Dao? What do I (the Dao) have to do to attain the Dao - ah you must practise meditation (an action of the Dao) to settle the mind (the Dao's energy returning to its natural state of stillness).  So what else is there that I (Dao) can do (also Dao)

 

Rather pointless no? An interesting forum nonetheless.

 

 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

Rather pointless no? An interesting forum nonetheless.

 

Hi Wayfarer,

 

No - it is not pointless.

 

There are many crowns at TDB.

 

We can argue until all the clowns come home.

 

 

But I am going to sleep - it is now 3am at my end.

 

Good night.

 

- LimA

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

Why? What's missing?

 

How about this...?

 

 

I will not post any pictures on adult elephant activities. They are pornographic...

 

Yes that one is well worth a thousand words, and pornographic elephants would to, it's probably legal on this forum?

 

... now all the guys go to look up elephant sex on Utube ...

Edited July 2, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

35 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

is there also a taoist word for shaped substance, manifested potential, which still recognizes it as potential, or it's potential to melt or shapeshift into anything?

 

Unshaped substance, unmanifested potential, is refered to as the uncarved block.

[Starjumper]

49 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

 

 

 

I have this one saved in my exercise video collection:

 

 

Also this one:

 

 

[Limahong]

6 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Utube ...

 

 

[Limahong]

7 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Also this one:

 

Hi Steve,

 

I dare not watch this one:

 

My mother will cane me.

 

- Anand

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

i'm saying there is no difference between waking and dreaming. both are creations of mind. one continous dream. leave my nose alone...

That's where we disagree.  In a dream my mind might have created a tree but no one else can see it.  In awareness I can see the tree and everyone else sees it too.  Sure, we difine it differently but it is still the same tree that we all are looking at.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

which makes me think of that chuang tzu butterfly story in a new perspective. the butterfly dreaming he is a human makes sense to me. but the other way arround doesn't

Hehehe.  Okay. Another place we disagree.  If we don't know the difference between a butterfly and our human being self then you need to stop doing drugs.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i was also saying that there is no difference between unshaped substance and shaped substance. unshaped substance is like a ball of clay, shaped substance like a sculpture. what's the difference? both is clay. the sculpture is just distracting from that fact because we get easily absorbed in that which it portrays. when the clay is just a ball we recognize it as clay because there is nothing else to see than clay

This is where the discriminating mind comes into play.  Sure, I can recognize the difference.  And yes, they are different.  Sure, they are of the same source (star stuff) while the ball of clay is still in its ball form the sculpture is an expression of someone who used the clay to present their thoughts.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

is there also a taoist word for shaped substance, manifested potential, which still recognizes it as potential, or it's potential to melt or shapeshift into anything?

The carved block.  Unshaped substance would be "uncarved block".

 

The Manifest (yu) is potential reified.  Potential (wu) cannot yet be defined.  It is sometimes referred to as Mystery.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

i have equated emptiness with substance, which you have (in it's unshaped state) equated with wu. so we have agreed upon that wu wei means emptiness in action, which you have negated before. 

 

Almost correct.  I suggested that wu wei is action without intention.  Not emptiness.

 

Your equation:  You cannot have substance is there is nothing but emptiness.

 

When Buddhists talk about emptiness I normally respond with the concept of fullness.

 

I believe that most Buddhists are confused about the concept of emptiness.  Empty of independent existence and/or eternal existence, indeed.  But not empty of substance.