What is in our power to do?

[Yinja]

Yes Bindi thats the guy and im aware of his controversial behaviour 

yet i think it dosnt mean he didnt have any wisdom to share. 

 

I also think its useless to keep this point of view and there is no point of disengaging from life 

there is a limit to how much you can deepen into it, eventually the game goes on and you just accept your decisions as your own even if you dont know how and where they are coming from.

 

I thought maybe im missing something and one of you can point at something which is in my control

you guys mention alot of different points of view but whether i adopt it or not is not up to me in someway unless i just accept that i dont know how and way but i just carry on 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Yinja

[Limahong]

39 minutes ago, Yinja said:

i just carry on

 

Hi Yinja,

 

Good for you.

 

 

Good luck.

 

- LimA

Edited June 18, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Bindi]

It could be time to move on from Watts, but if not just be happy with his conclusions without complaint.
 

Quote

 

The virtue of Watts' waywardness is that it humanizes the path, makes it seem accessible and vital. But about the next step, the actual practice of the path, whatever it may be, Watts has very little that is helpful or useful to say. He takes one just so far and no further. As a compellingly human introduction to spirituality and mysticism, there is probably none finer than that of Watts' work; but mere introduction it remains, For those who wish actually to accomplish the Way, Watts must be left behind--with fond memories, to be sure, but nonetheless with a certain residue of bewilderment as well.

 

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew26759.htm

 

 

[Jeff]

14 hours ago, Yinja said:

Folks i appreciate what you have to say but it dosnt answer my question 

In other words what is not 100% automatic in us? 

 

Most of what people do is an autopilot response. A body in motion stays in motion. But, as clarity “increases”, so does the relative freedom of motion. Or, a body in motion, stays in motion unless some new force is applied. Quiet your mind and find those push points.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, all those autopilot responses of emotion are driven by underlying energy structures. Find and feel the energy beneath and you are on the way to breaking down those patterns.

 

A sage is one who has cleared away that autopilot crap and is free to respond in the moment. An immortal is one who can do it more broadly for the world (and others) around them.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Yinja said:

Yes Bindi thats the guy and im aware of his controversial behaviour 

yet i think it dosnt mean he didnt have any wisdom to share. 

 

I also think its useless to keep this point of view and there is no point of disengaging from life 

there is a limit to how much you can deepen into it, eventually the game goes on and you just accept your decisions as your own even if you dont know how and where they are coming from.

 

I thought maybe im missing something and one of you can point at something which is in my control

you guys mention alot of different points of view but whether i adopt it or not is not up to me in someway unless i just accept that i dont know how and way but i just carry on 

 

Agreed on Alan Watts having had a good deal of wisdom to share.

 

Talking about your topic: Yes, in retrospect, it may easily seem like any decision you made was the only one you could have made. But how can you really know that? It surely didn't look like that at the time you needed to make that decision, before the wave function collapsed? At least not every single time - unless you are an individual that never suffers from indecisiveness (in which case I envy you).

 

Not even the movement of a quantum is fully predictable, as we know today. Essentially, your assumption is taking things back to a mechanical Newtonian universe.

 

Hence the video I posted above.

[Yinja]

Thank you Jeff, Lima, Bindi for the intresting article (although imo not very accurate)

 

Michael you seem to understand my confusion. thank you, it made things clearer. 

Would you say nature itself is unpredicable therefor my reactions to it  is incalculable?

Do you mind elaborating on the subject ?

Edited June 18, 2018 by Yinja

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, Yinja said:

Here is a quote from a book the way i remember it. 

If you can make a decision well than there must be a point when you decide to decide... and decide to decide to decide

and so on in an endless regression. so you see if you were free to decide you couldnt and if youare not free to decide you can decide.

 

Alan Watts was the king of the mental jerkoffs, the Western Owl of Eastern philosophy, overly enamored with his cleverness and popularity.  He went way too far with that statement, groping at straws in order to put more words in a book, maybe drunk too.

 

There is no "decide to decide".  Decisions come spontaneously when a sentient being is confronted with a choice, it is instinctual and not under conscious control (for most); I'm referring to the act of making a decision, not the outcome of the decision.  The brain works in a binary manner by judging which is the better of two choices.  If there are more than two choices at one time then the brain picks two at a time to compare and eliminate one at a time.  It is instinctual and happens in all animals.  This is where the concept of good and evil come from.  Some choice must be perceived as better than another choice.  I think you have been exposed to too much of Watt's type of mental jerking off and it has overly influenced you.  If you mentally live in that world created by the great jerkoff then it can seem like he is right, but keep this in mind - most of the verbose Zen masters who write books and give speeches are, at their heart, meditation teachers.  They put out words in order to attract people to their practice, which is meditation.  They speak and write to show people the results of their practice.  They have it in their hearts, and not just in their minds like Watts.

 

Tell me Yinja, do you meditate much?  Even if you have started keep at it, it takes time but after awhile you will begin to appreciate how your mind works

 

I suggest you go backpacking alone in the wilderness where you are confronted with different trails to follow and need to make choices.  Don't bring any books or cellphones, and start meditating, no mind meditation as in Zazen.

 

Or Chen tai chi, taught by a master  

Edited June 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[Yinja]

Hey Starjumper 

 

I meditate for years now  on a daily basis most of them and i love how my mind works and enjoy this ultimate dance more with each day that goes by

only lately with a deeper disidentification with "i" it more and more seems like im a process of nature more than an indevidual 

 

I've done the practices ive opened my heart discovered compassion and seen through alot of unconcious behaviour that shaped my reallity. The only Satoris I had was when i meditated hard enough to give up on trying and as soon as i stood up it occured. 

 

You say that decision making is spontanious so how can you do anything which is not perfectly right ? 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Yinja said:

Hey Starjumper 

 

I meditate for years now  on a daily basis most of them and i love how my mind works and enjoy this ultimate dance more with each day that goes by

only lately with a deeper disidentification with "i" it more and more seems like im a process of nature more than an indevidual 

 

I've done the practices ive opened my heart discovered compassion and seen through alot of unconcious behaviour that shaped my reallity. The only Satoris I had was when i meditated hard enough to give up on trying and as soon as i stood up it occured. 

 

You say that decision making is spontanious so how can you do anything which is not perfectly right ? 

 

I see you have reached an advanced level.  At first I thought maybe you were a beginner speaking of a lower level.  The level you have reached I would say is one where you have bypassed karma.   It's true that the decision making is spontaneous, and yet sometimes we can decide to not make a decision but only observe.

 

I know what you are referring to but it's difficult to describe, for me.  You get to a point where decisions pop up so fast that you aren't aware of pondering the situation.  This is because you are getting the messages from your subconscious, and the subconscious is so much more aware than the conscious mind.  When you, or we, or I, accept full responsibility for the decision that pops up, and we get to a point of taking full responsibility for our actions, then it automatically seems like the right decision, and it usually is.  Then you can easily say that the decision was perfectly right, and I went through a stage like this myself.

 

Getting further, beyond that stage, as we look at how good and bad alternates with time and with the point of view of whatever observer is involved, including ourselves, we don't see a decision as being perfectly right.  It's just something that came out of the natural good intentions of Te, the game of ethics, and no one is perfect, not even the immortals.

 

In a way it's a defeatist attitude,  you do what you do and you see the outcomes, both good and bad, and you accept what is, knowing you did it with a pure heart.  I don't see decisions as being either right or worng, they are just what is, it's just me, and I like myself, so I leave them behind as far as emotional involvement is concerned.  This is what I believe the Buddhist say is going beyond karma and the Taoists call it wu wei.  Non action, non action via action.

 

Whew, had to work for that one 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Starjumper
change tit's to it's

[Limahong]

50 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

I see you have reached an advanced level.  At first I thought maybe you were a beginner speaking of a lower level.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Good that you are reading Yinja thus.

 

I can feel the compassion in your preceding post.

 

Your kind words will keep him in good stead.

 

Hope Yinja will opt for wu wei as yin and yang dance in a dynamic balance thus -

 

 

 

Nothing in Nature stands still?

 

Everything is energy - including decision?

 

- Anand

Edited June 18, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Daemon]

21 hours ago, Yinja said:

Fare enough but it dosnt really makes things clearer for me

 

 

One of the ways in which you might be able to escape the hall of mirrors into which you seem to have been led by the hubristic folly of spiritual teachers is to examine the entirely dualistic simplistic folly of it more closely.

The false dualistic axiom is:

 

1. I have fee will or

2. I do not have free will

 

How could it be any more dualistic than that with one polarity existing to the exclusion of the other (like left/right and up/down)?

One way in which you may succeed in escaping from this purely intellectual trap into which these "teachers" have fallen themselves is to allow yourself to resonate between those two polarities until the two opposing thoughts (merely beliefs rather than the complex nondual reality) cancel each other out.

If that doesn't work for you in a couple of days, there are lots of other ways out and you can PM to explore  a more personalised escape route in the unlikely event that doesn't free you from this dualistic advaitin (and neoadvaitin) non-sense.

 

☮️ 

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Daemon said:

If that doesn't work for you in a couple of days...

 

Hi Daemon,

 

 

It is life-long.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

It's true that the decision making is spontaneous, and yet sometimes we can decide to not make a decision but only observe.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Wu wei encourages decision making by/through/with/... observation?

 

 

- Anand

Edited June 18, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, Yinja said:

Thank you Jeff, Lima, Bindi for the intresting article (although imo not very accurate)

 

Michael you seem to understand my confusion. thank you, it made things clearer. 

Would you say nature itself is unpredicable therefor my reactions to it  is incalculable?

Do you mind elaborating on the subject ?

 

Not at all.

 

So you feel yourself to be part of a process... Okay, so be it. Why bother?

 

And if you want to break free and break the rules... Have it your way...

 

Well, as long you don't do too much damage to yourself and others, that's cool! Just go ahead! Give it your best effort - nothing can stop you!

 

And if that's part of a process too, well, so be it!

 

There's no need for confusion, really, though it's understandable.

 

We can talk more if you wish...

[Limahong]

8 hours ago, Yinja said:

I thought maybe I'm missing something and one of you can point at something which is in my control...

 

Hi Yinja,

 

 

 

- LimA

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, Daemon said:

PM me to explore  a more personalised escape route.

---------------------

Because they desperately need to convince others that they're special because they need disciples. Without followers they are nothing. How can any of them be a teacher if they don't have (needy) pupils?

---------------------

PM me to explore  a more personalised escape route.

 

Yea Yinja why don't you PM Demon for some real advice.  Heck, let's all PM Demon for some deep teachings ... about the heart, he's an expert on hearts.

 

Of course Demon could PM Yinja with his teachings, or he could offer them in public, but then he might appear to be parading around as one of them despicable teachers.  It looks like instead of PMing Yinja Demon wants Yinja to PM him so that he can feel like he then has a needy student, and without a follower he may feel even  more worthless, like nothing (as he mentions above).  He needs followers here.  "PM me for teachings" he says repeatedly on the forum right from the beginning.  such a desperate widdle guy, huh?  ... and he doesn't understand where duality comes from or how it is fundamental to the human condition.

 

It is my feeling that Yinja is more advanced and has seen further than Demon, someone who is openly disdainful of teachers in a forum full of teachers and students.  In fact many of us here are both teacher and student as the opportunity allows.  It's called sharing things.

 

In spite of his disdain for teachers and the great burden they have placed on Yinja he offers the following kindergarten level teachings:

 

Quote

One of the ways in which you might be able to escape the hall of mirrors into which you seem to have been led by the hubristic folly of spiritual teachers is to examine the entirely dualistic simplistic folly of it more closely.

The false dualistic axiom is:

 

1. I have fee will or

2. I do not have free will

 

How could it be any more dualistic than that with one polarity existing to the exclusion of the other (like left/right and up/down)?

One way in which you may succeed in escaping from this purely intellectual trap into which these "teachers" have fallen themselves is to allow yourself to resonate between those two polarities until the two opposing thoughts (merely beliefs rather than the complex nondual reality) cancel each other out.

 

In fact, I'm a teacher myself.  But I'm just a lowly exercise teacher, I teach without speaking.  A student is required to observe and imitate and then figure out what's happening.  When I offer verbal insights like I did earlier in this thread it's only sharing things from personal experience.  I don't consider it to be teaching other than how we all, except for Demon, look at sharing personal experience as being an offering of possibly helpful information.

 

Also, as it says in the TTC: "A good man is a bad man's teacher, and a bad man is a good man's burden."  It goes on to say:  "Anyone who doesn't understand this, like Demon, my burden, is a first class Bozo."

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

Hi Steve,

 

Wu wei encourages decision making by/through/with/... observation?

 

Hi Anand, good morning.  How's the weather over there?

 

Yes, I think observation is required in order to gather info to make a decision ... whether it's wu wei or not.  To me wu wei applies more in a couple of different ways.

 

One.  Is to continue observing and neither taking action nor making a decision, to wait and observe further to perhaps make a better decision or to find that no action was required and things worked out as you had hoped, or not; but realizing that interfering probably wouldn't have helped - waiting for the right moment, so to speak.

 

Two.  Is to take what I call spontaneous action on the spur of the moment, action which is part and parcel of the decision, that arrises from the subconscious and implemented immediately without conscious contemplation about it.  Then, after the act is done, to leave it behind and not be emotionally attached to the outcome.

 

Both of the above are aspects of being a warrior, someone who must be judge, jury, and executioner all rolled into one.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Hi Ananad,

 

11 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

That picture is just WRONG.

 

So I made one which is more anatomically correct:

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[Limahong]

 

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

So I made one which is more anatomically correct

 

Hi Steve,

 

The orange said - thanks.

 

 

It asked -

 

 

or

 

 

- Anand

[Starjumper]

Lets say it's a male, but then what's he doing to that poor orange?

 

The thought occurred to me this morning, after considering Demon's sophomoric* teachings, that he himself is the victim of the mental jerkoff teachers that he despises.

 

Definition of sophomoric

1: conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature -  

a sophomoric argument

[Limahong]

On 6/18/2018 at 12:38 AM, Yinja said:

My thoughts, emotions and  even my will and decisions supposedly the most free of my actions arise from within me 

like hiccups.

 

Hi Yinja,

 

Wu-wei is non-action action. It is a deliberate and principled decision.

 

 

Wu-wei has no hiccups? Hiccups are part of Life and Living...

 

 

 

Thus is wu-wei a path/search/process/...?

 

 

 

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Let's say it's a male, but then what's he doing to that poor orange?

 

Hi Steve,

 

You are very naughty...

 

 

 

 

- Anand

Edited June 19, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Alchemical Walrus]

On 6/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, thelerner said:

forgive me, but that seemed a little too new agey for Einstein.  Not that he was averse to metaphysics.  In any case, according to the quote investigator.. it's not from Albert- https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/05/16/everything-energy/

according to the site above this is as close as he got-

Albert Einstein did speak about the relationship between matter and energy. The following quote is from a 1948 film called “Atomic Physics” [AEAP]:

It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing — a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind.

 

"I'm starting to wonder if there is any statement that hasn't been ascribed to Einstein by someone, somewhere." -Albert Einstein.

[Limahong]

59 minutes ago, Alchemical Walrus said:

"I'm starting to wonder if there is any statement that hasn't been ascribed to Einstein by someone, somewhere." -Albert Einstein.

 

Hi Alchemical Walrus,

 

Wherever he is, let Albert Einstein hear himself talking now - relative to himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RIP Sir.

 

- LimA

Edited June 19, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[steve]

On 6/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, Yinja said:

My thoughts, emotions and  even my will and decisions supposedly the most free of my actions arise from within me 

like hiccups. 

 

What are we all trying to achive here?

One worthy objective is to find that me and my you refer to...

When we look, we can't find it.

With patience we can find a deeper, far more supportive me.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, Yinja said:

to bang our heads against a wall to ultimately realise 

there is nothing to change and nothing to achive?

Everything changes and there is infinite potential for achievement!

Nihilism is not the view, it is the product of a threatened ego.

The view is being open to change and achievement, allowing it.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, Yinja said:

But is it not that the very moment of this realisation is also fixed somewhere in time and cannot be changed like everything else? 

It's not a realization, it's just another thought...

Realization is an entirely different sort of process.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, Yinja said:

Why do spiritual teachers plead us to wake up if there is nothing we can do about it and nothing we can do to understand we cant do anything about it? 

In general, we go to them.

They don't knock on our doors... not the legitimate ones.

 

Your misconceptions are what they suggest you wake up from because they are the very problems for which you sought their guidance in the first place.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, Yinja said:

I find myself wonder about that often nowadays and most times very confused, 

Think about it less; open and connect to the moment more.

Talk less (internally also); listen and hear more.

That helps to cut through the confusion.

 

 

On 6/17/2018 at 12:38 PM, Yinja said:

but at times also very light as i see that i cannot make any mistakes, like a cloud in the wind.

Yinja

The cloud is not who you are... not even the wind.

The you that makes no mistakes is the space and awareness within which they arise, abide, and depart.