The Daoist Way of Liberation

[Bindi]

One of the foundations of the Daoist way of liberation is in lessening and draining away that which hides or obscures what one has received from heaven. “In this regard, the Zhuangzi admonishes that for human beings the issue does not lie in having a transitory and limited individuality, defined (among other conditioning factors) by forms. For the Zhuangzi, the issue lies in the attempt made to compensate for those perceived limitations by “adding” something to one’s individuality, and in performing actions with that purpose.

 

...One may become “settled” or “stabilised,” by not being dependent on the transiency of forms, and instead by letting “what is provided with a form be an image of the formless”. Accomplishing  this  does not require a process of “increase” or of perfectioning but rather of “decrease” or of return, as the Zhuangzhi says quoting Laozi:

 

                                                                Practicing the Dao is called decreasing day by day;

                                                        decrease and then again decrease, until there is no doing;

                                                        when there is no doing there is nothing that is not done.

 

 

p. 106-107 https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1177_2004_num_14_1_1202

Edited June 8, 2018 by Bindi

[Apech]

"For the person who attains to the Dao, there are altogether seven stages: 1. Obtaining concentration and ease of mind: one becomes aware of all impurities. 2. Eliminating illnesses derived from former lives: body and mind are light and lively. 3. Preventing untimely death and other harms: one reverts to youth and returns to one's destiny. 4. Reaching a longevity of ten thousand years: this is called being an Immortal (xianren). 5. Refining form into pneuma: this is called being a Real Man (zhenren). 6. Refining pneuma and achieving spirit: this is called being a Divine Man (shenren). 7. Refining spirit and joining with the Dao: this is called being an Accomplished Man (zhiren).4"

 

 

[Marblehead]

The Way of Dao is free.  No liberation needed.

 

(The individual might need a little help though.)

 

[steve]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

                                                                Practicing the Dao is called decreasing day by day;

                                                        decrease and then again decrease, until there is no doing;

                                                        when there is no doing there is nothing that is not done.

 

At the New Year my teacher's instructions were to do a little less in the coming year... talk a little less, plan a little less, do a little less, [post a little less!  ], 5%, 10%, whatever you can do. Then do a little less... He's not a Daoist but good advice is good advice.

 

 

 

[steve]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The Way of Dao is free.  No liberation needed.

 

(The individual might need a little help though.)

 

 

Sounds a bit like the non-dualists being discussed elsewhere

[rex]

This Daoist text is well worth a read:

 

Hua Hu Ching

 

Here's a sample:

 

Five

Do you imagine the universe is agitated? Go into the desert at night and took out at the stars. This practice should answer the question. The superior person settles her mind as the universe settles the stars in the sky. By connecting her mind with the subtle origin, she calms it. Once calmed, it naturally expands, and ultimately her mind becomes as vast and immeasurable as the night sky. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by rex
Tpyo

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Sounds a bit like the non-dualists being discussed elsewhere

Yeah, well, you know I like to be non-dualistic whenever I can.

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Liberation happens when a being recognizes nobody else has ever thought for them, and mindfully choose to appreciate the nature of what IS rather than suffering a personal fantasy of how they think it needs to be instead. 

 

The universe offers some sensational phenomenon.  If a being chooses to receive the phenomenon with sincere gratitude or with sincere fear is the difference between liberation from suffering and suffering. 

 

All suffering arises from a single beings choice in Now, all liberation arises from a single beings choice in Now.  

 

Choosing to wait for some time   other than Now to choose to experience liberation is ensuring suffering until death.

 

Liberation can not be saved up for with weekly payments over time, it does not have a list of conditional prerequisites, it can not be purchased, it can not be captured or saved in a jar for later use.  

 

It is a precious gift you can unstoppably and unbreakably choose to experience in Now, or not. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Edited June 8, 2018 by Bud Jetsun

[Bindi]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

"For the person who attains to the Dao, there are altogether seven stages: 1. Obtaining concentration and ease of mind: one becomes aware of all impurities. 2. Eliminating illnesses derived from former lives: body and mind are light and lively. 3. Preventing untimely death and other harms: one reverts to youth and returns to one's destiny. 4. Reaching a longevity of ten thousand years: this is called being an Immortal (xianren). 5. Refining form into pneuma: this is called being a Real Man (zhenren). 6. Refining pneuma and achieving spirit: this is called being a Divine Man (shenren). 7. Refining spirit and joining with the Dao: this is called being an Accomplished Man (zhiren).4"

 

 

 

This list doesn't half aim high  

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, steve said:

 

At the New Year my teacher's instructions were to do a little less in the coming year... talk a little less, plan a little less, do a little less, [post a little less!  ], 5%, 10%, whatever you can do. Then do a little less... He's not a Daoist but good advice is good advice.

 

 

 

 

I understood decreasing not as doing less but "lessening and draining away that which hides or obscures". In this quote there is a 'no doing' point, but I saw it as coming after obscurations have been drained away. 

 

On the positive side, that no-doing is final, when that state is achieved there really is nothing left to do. 

 

According to the list that Apech posted this state would be evident in the return to health of the body, if anyone claims to have achieved #1 it should be demonstrable in #2 and #3.  

 

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

For me, the essence of Daoism is well expressed in the Neiye.  There’s a saying, “Too many cooks spoil the brew.” With Daoism too many concepts spoil the experience for sure. 

[steve]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I understood decreasing not as doing less but "lessening and draining away that which hides or obscures". In this quote there is a 'no doing' point, but I saw it as coming after obscurations have been drained away. 

 

On the positive side, that no-doing is final, when that state is achieved there really is nothing left to do. 

 

According to the list that Apech posted this state would be evident in the return to health of the body, if anyone claims to have achieved #1 it should be demonstrable in #2 and #3.  

 

I've found that taking it literally is of immense value as well.

We busy ourselves with so many unnecessary tasks, thoughts, words....

Those very things obscure.

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, Yueya said:

For me, the essence of Daoism is well expressed in the Neiye.  There’s a saying, “Too many cooks spoil the brew.” With Daoism too many concepts spoil the experience for sure. 

 

I think this is what most people might think of when describing Daoism. I might be wrong but I think of this as philosophical Daoism. It's not the Daoism I'm personally interested in, I'm interested in an inner alchemy version which as far as I can understand takes a far more active approach to cultivation. But both systems must have some common ground. 

 

Maybe in relation to the quote in the OP - 

 

                                                                Practicing the Dao is called decreasing day by day;

                                                        decrease and then again decrease, until there is no doing;

                                                        when there is no doing there is nothing that is not done.

 

It can all come down to what one chooses 'decreasing' to mean, and whether there is room for two different understandings of it.

 

                            "Devotion to learning means increasing day by day; devotion to the Way means decreasing day by day." (89)

 By the last Lao Zi meant to obtain the way was to shed one's own preconceptions and become more closely aligned with nature.

 

To me, to shed preconceptions on a deep level, and to have them permanently shed so that they never again arise, without having to work on keeping them at bay, requires some sort of proactive system to shed them thoroughly initially. I would include all karma and conditioning as underlying sources of preconceptions. To me this should bring me into full alignment with nature including my own true nature. 

 

Anything else to me seems like 'increasing'. If I have to try to be sagely or compassionate or calm or accepting, this is not authentic, and would collapse at the first test, where I would no doubt revert to the old persona that would inevitably have been left fully functional in my subconscious. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

 

Honestly Bud, I find it hard to follow what you mean, I sort of blank out after the first sentence. You seem to be saying that choosing Now to be in is important, but I find that things like karma and conditioning that have developed in the past necessarily require examining the past to some extent. When they are resolved I might join you in the non-doing no-effort Now though. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

18 hours ago, rex said:

This Daoist text is well worth a read:

 

Hua Hu Ching

 

Here's a sample:

 

Five

Do you imagine the universe is agitated? Go into the desert at night and took out at the stars. This practice should answer the question. The superior person settles her mind as the universe settles the stars in the sky. By connecting her mind with the subtle origin, she calms it. Once calmed, it naturally expands, and ultimately her mind becomes as vast and immeasurable as the night sky. 

 

 

 

 

 

Chapter Four There is only one way to cleanse oneself of these contaminations, and that is to practice virtue.

 

I agree there are contaminants and that they have to be cleansed, though I prefer a different way of cleansing. I do like the Hindu concept of different yoga's for different temperaments, where the same general outcome is sought, but different methods are used to get there. 

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

My teaching is

 

What do you want? Therefore you have attained.. or no?

[zerostao]

The Neiye is about breath, meditation, qi cultivation and the cosmology those are based on. The title breaks down to basically to internal work.

Edited June 9, 2018 by zerostao

[Bud Jetsun]

Karma positive negative, balanced or eliminated is not liberation, but a karmic conditional fleeting state.  Karmic effect concludes only when sincere appreciation of all outcomes brings equal choices in gratitude, as inherently "good/bad" experience optional construct paradigm has been replaced with optional unbreakable choice in compassion to self (aka, appreciation of this one moment between conception and death.)

 

Breath is not liberation, personally never perfected even a single breath and it is with deep appreciation for the challenge opportunity offered in breath.

 

Meditation as an activity to do which in itself is unrelated to liberation, but may optionally offer the opportunity to realize its always been possible to show genuine gratitude unconditionally for all range of life experiences by mindful choice, which is liberation from the capacity for suffering to the limits of the beings choice in mindfulness.

 

We each alone each limit the bounds of our inherent capacity to mindfully appreciate now as it is.

 

The aspects of human constructed expression and labels for confusion, including this post is not liberation, but a gift in compassion for all beings.

 

Humble not-knowing eyes and ears prepared to drop the limitless human labeled constructed self ensnarement in exchange for the awareness and appreciation of the divine beauty in all aspects of the galaxy of galaxies will know liberation from suffering and constructs alike.

 

The immortal spirit inside each being eventually evolves to someday chose to appreciate Now (while inhabiting an optionally distracting meat-sack monkey mind persisting ego-ilusions) , maybe thousands of lifetimes later, but it still won't happen until they make the choice to mindfully do it Now and not choose to stop.  

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Edited June 9, 2018 by Bud Jetsun

[Geof Nanto]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think this is what most people might think of when describing Daoism. I might be wrong but I think of this as philosophical Daoism. It's not the Daoism I'm personally interested in,

 

Bindi, you can’t have read the Neiye to make that comment. Unusual for you whose posts are generally very well informed. As Zerostao wrote above: "The Neiye is about breath, meditation, qi cultivation and the cosmology those are based on. The title breaks down to basically to internal work." 

 

The Neiye comes across to me as an attempt by someone who has gained genuine attainment at describing the process and experience. No way is it a philosophical work; it is a manual for inner attainment.  It's of particular interest because it was written before the language and theory that Daoists are now familiar with came into existence. The author was shaping something new that hadn't been written about before. Of course, people had been experiencing such mystical attainments since the dawn of humanity but the words and theoretical framework to communicate them simply didn't exist.  In the Neiye, what later become key concepts such as jing 精 (vital essence), de 德 (inner power), qi 氣 and even Dao 道 were still fluid and they're used practically interchangeably.  We see Daoism in it formative stage; hence this period is sometimes called 'proto-Daoism'.  And that's why I like it. The later systemisation is a double-edged sword. It both helps and hinders personal cultivation. 

 

To my understanding, the Neiye conforms with what your expressing in the gist of your comments such as:  "Devotion to learning means increasing day by day; devotion to the Way means decreasing day by day." 

 By the last Lao Zi meant to obtain the way was to shed one's own preconceptions and become more closely aligned with nature.  

 

I see no underlying disagreement; just a communication problem. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Yueya

[Boundlesscostfairy]

So is there a person who lived recently.. or lives now who embodies the ideal of liberation?

 

Also is it possible to measure the amount of liberation a man has attained?

 

If it is.. I personally feel I'm in the 70-80% range..

 

And that is with Teh, and compassion for all living beings..

 

And btw, can someone be liberated through compassion alone?

[Bindi]

18 minutes ago, Yueya said:

 

Bindi, you can’t have read the Neiye to make that comment. Unusual for you whose posts are generally very well informed.

 

 

Hi Yueya, it's true I didn't read the whole Neiye I only got to page 4 or so, my comment was premature as I see now after having read the whole thing. My apologies. Perhaps my thinking is more disordered than usual, which might be a very good sign as my disordered mind is what I'm trying to shed light on at the moment  

 

18 minutes ago, Yueya said:

The Neiye comes across to me as an attempt by someone who has gained genuine attainment at describing the process and experience. No way is it a philosophical work; it is a manual for inner attainment.  It's of particular interest because it was written before the language and theory that Daoists are now familiar with came into existence. The author was shaping something new that hadn't been written about before. Of course, people had been experiencing such mystical attainments since the dawn of humanity but the words and theoretical framework to communicate them simply didn't exist.  In the Neiye, what later become key concepts such as jing 精 (vital essence), de 德 (inner power), qi 氣 and even Dao 道 were still fluid and they're used practically interchangeably.  We see Daoism in it formative stage; hence this period is sometimes called 'proto-Daoism'.  And that's why I like it. The latter systemisation is a double-edged sword. It both helps and hinders personal cultivation. 

 

To my understanding, the Neiye conforms with what your expressing in the gist of your other comments.  I see no underlying disagreement; just a communication problem. 

 

[Marblehead]

While considering liberation, you might check the cell door - it may not be locked.

 

[Daemon]

For the record, the cell door can only be locked (or unlocked) from the inside (and fortunately, it's not possible lose the key).

 

☮️

[Bindi]

8 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

So is there a person who lived recently.. or lives now who embodies the ideal of liberation?

 

My favourite example is not a Daoist but an Orthodox Russian Saint Seraphim of Sarov. He developed clairvoyance and the ability to perform miraculous cures, and seemed to be very closely connected to some 'divine' source. 

 

8 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Also is it possible to measure the amount of liberation a man has attained?

 

Though 'powers' are not the aim or the reason for desiring 'liberation', I associate their development with the measurable amount of liberation attained. Powers along the lines of Saint Seraphims, genuine clairvoyance, healing, not odd qi tricks or otherwise useless demonstrations of abilities. This might not be very PC of me of course. Also the return to good health and extended lifespan seem to be a particularly Daoist measure of attainment. 

 

Is full Daoist liberation, the development of an immortal spiritual body, considered possible by anyone? Or is this just Neidan's version of liberation? 

 

And a question I've mulled over for some years, is Jesus an example of full Daoist liberation in returning to life in a spiritual body?

 

8 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

 

If it is.. I personally feel I'm in the 70-80% range..

 

And that is with Teh, and compassion for all living beings..

 

And btw, can someone be liberated through compassion alone?

 

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I would think The Buddha had a slightly higher attainment than Jesus..

 

But both seemed to have had amazing miraculous power..

 

Although when it comes down to it.. Buddha wanted people to be able to attain what he did, via the 8 fold path and cessation of suffering..

 

While Jesus figured he would be always the one to look up to.. and pray for.. as The Son of God.. The man on top of the pyramid so to speak..

 

Though there are branches of christianity like Gnosticism that proclaimed the belief that any one could attain Christhood... also The Course in Miracles is of this belief.. and supposedly has Jesus Christ as the narrator.

 

Last but not least are the prophets... Moses probably had one of the biggest miracles in history of our time of civilization with the parting of the Red Sea..