Does anyone know any exact quotes from ancient Daoist sources (before tang dynasty) which teach how to meditate correctly?

[Phoenix3]

I want to go back to the source and try to understand what they’re talking about, instead of getting lost in all the different meditation styles of today. How did the ancient daoists teach it? Please provide quotes.

 

I’d love to do my own research on this, but unfortunately most daoist texts seem to have not been translated into English yet. The handful that have been translated (just translations. I don’t want commentaries or teachings based upon it), are available only at really expensive prices.

 

Thank you!

[Gerard]

You should meditate according to your OWN conditions, not according to someone else's specific circumstances: cultural, geographic, date of birth (animal type), Ba Zi, and how much Water (more sitting) or Fire (more moving) they have in their charts. Also if you sit in front of a computer the whole day, sitting meditation will slowly destroy you. You need to move heaps. Hence IMA are the preferred method of meditation.

 

You need a good teacher, this is mandatory. No shortcuts here. Not easy to find someone competent, sensitive, grounded and caring....and EXPERIENCED.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

[Phoenix3]

Yeah, I would like a teacher who lives nearby, can teach at low-cost, knows actual knowledge which gives actual results and is willing to teach. But I also would like to win the lottery tomorrow. Neither has much chance of happening, so instead it would be best to teach myself and not rely on the tiny, tiny chance there is an actual teacher nearby, that’s willing to teach me.

 

And I can’t stand this eastern style master-student dynamic, where I’m supposed to suck up to some random guru or teacher and tactfully beg him to share his secrets. 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Phoenix3

[Phoenix3]

Buddha reached nibbana in mere weeks. Some of his disciples reached nibbana in as little as 7 days (apparently).

 

and you get Theravada monks who meditate for 10 years and barely reach the first jhana.

 

How many hippies in california meditate all the time? How many get results? Exactly.

 

I’m just looking for quotes, not an argument.

[Starjumper]

8 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

And I can’t stand this eastern style master-student dynamic, where I’m supposed to suck up to some random guru or teacher and tactfully beg him to share his secrets. 

 

That is not the dynamic at all, that's not how it works and that's not the right attitude.

[Phoenix3]

Ok cool whatever.

 

I guess no-one is going to help.

 

Bye then.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

I want to go back to the source and try to understand what they’re talking about, instead of getting lost in all the different meditation styles of today. How did the ancient daoists teach it? Please provide quotes.

 

I’d love to do my own research on this, but unfortunately most daoist texts seem to have not been translated into English yet. The handful that have been translated (just translations. I don’t want commentaries or teachings based upon it), are available only at really expensive prices.

 

Thank you!

https://books.google.com/books?id=qvfdCgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Stephen Eskildsen

SUNY Press, Nov 4, 2015

I'm not gonna transcribe quotes for you - but that google preview should had quotes.

Daoism, Meditation, and the Wonders of Serenity: From the Latter Han Dynasty (25-220) to the Tang Dynasty (618-907)

 

[silent thunder]

Wang Li Ping's book:  Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu translated by Richard Liao is a very practical guide from an 18th generation lineage holder whose method dates back to 861 and Qiu Chu Ji. 

 

And thanks for the reminder, think I'll revisit this one myself.

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

I’m just looking for quotes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye

[Marblehead]

Hi Phoenix3,

 

I hope you are still reading this thread of yours.

 

I often talk about empty-minded meditation.  Chuang Tzu spoke directly to this meditation method.

 

If you are still interested I will find exactly how he explains it and post it.

 

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Hi Phoenix3,

 

I hope you are still reading this thread of yours.

 

I often talk about empty-minded meditation.  Chuang Tzu spoke directly to this meditation method.

 

If you are still interested I will find exactly how he explains it and post it.

 

Quote

You must unify your will (concentrate yourself). Do not listen to it with your ears but rather listen to it with your mind. Do not listen to it with your mind, but rather listen to it with your qi. ...Qi however is something that is empty and waits for things. Only the Dao gathers where it is empty.

Zhuang Zhou, Zhuangzi chapter 4

[thelerner]

Personally I find the old texts hard to understand.  Often poetical language written in a foreign language for people in another culture. 

 

Seems to me in the beginning, one just sits.  Nice to have some live instruction, for posture and a few hints on breathing, but basically for a few months or year or so, one just sits.  Over and over, maybe counting there breath, 1 to 10, repeat. 

 

When one can sit, with a quiet mind, for an hour or two, perhaps generating some heat in there dantien; can keep some of that emptiness with them during the day.. then its time to look for a teacher to go deeper but to move too fast too soon, might keep a person from getting the fundamentals down.  Imo Fundamental #1, is a quiet mind (with sharp awareness). 

Edited May 26, 2018 by thelerner

[wandelaar]

For a scientific book that tries to reconstruct the form of meditation of the early Taoists see:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

20 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

That is not the dynamic at all, that's not how it works and that's not the right attitude.

 

2 cents to add:

some teachers capitalize on that dynamic, that is a red flag for sect-leader behavior. Some teachers truly believe this is correct and traditional, promoting the stereotype and likely were either played by a sectleader or had a teacher whom they didn’t understand.

 

If a teacher insists for their students to be part of some inner circle or sucking up with loose promises of a place at the table then this is a red flag for insecurity and it’s not conductive to a very healthy relationship.

 

If you’ve seen ”Kill Bill vol. 2” that summarizes a good vs poor teacher-student relationship:

Spoiler

Bill studies with the legendary Pai Mei and only hears talk about his 5-point palm exploding heart technique, convinced in his arrogance that Pai Mei never teaches it to anyone because he’s a grumpy old bastard.

Bill has very little good to say about Pai Mei, he has so much to say about his snobbism and mercylessness and even though Bill learned much from him they never got along.

 

Beatrix studies with Pai Mei who accepts her as a student after beating the crap out of Bill. He’s pretty hard on her at first, probably because he thinks if she hangs out with Bill then she might be just as rotten as him. She adapts and lo and behold: he teaches her that very same technique that Bill obviously coveted but never inherited. She’d never tell anyone and knows when to use it.

Pai Mei tests the living crap out of Beatrix but he notices her dedication and iron will to conquer the task at hand. He’s totally a snob, unfriendly and of haughty behavior, full of himself but obviously recognizes a good match in a student when he sees one.

 

The only times she grovels before him is when he shows his skill and when he teaches her to never let go of her dignity and persevering attitude because of such petty trifles as pain and hunger (ie the ”eat from the floor like an animal or use utensils).

 

Hos generosity is genuine but his delivery is ham fisted.

 

Sure, many teachers can seem a little stiff at first but the dynamic is ideally a respectful and reciprocal friendship, imo a good teacher will open up to a student who can grasp and pay attention, or at least shows dedication and effort to approach their treasures...

Chinese teachers drop a lot of hints and gems around them but they often do it so casually and discretely that not everybody notices what just flashed before them.

 

It’s definetly a chance or luck thing, finding a skilled person whom you can understand and who is able to recognize your attention and diligence.

[steve]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

For a scientific book that tries to reconstruct the form of meditation of the early Taoists see:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

 

Excellent book although I wouldn't recommend it as a training manual.

[steve]

Sorry if I offend anyone but if you're not willing to invest the time, effort, and cash to study with a master, you're not going to get very far in Daoist meditation...  Sadly, masters are few and far between but they are out there. You can certainly cultivate a life based on Daoist values but Daoist meditation is detail oriented and sophisticated and, to my knowledge, it's never been written down in the form of a usable training manual. In fact, most writings about the training methods are intentionally abstruse and cryptic.

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

For a scientific book that tries to reconstruct the form of meditation of the early Taoists see:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

 

that has people giving other links on it...

 

[wandelaar]

@ steve

 

It depends on what you want. If you want to meditate as part of following Lao tzu and Chuang tzu, I doubt that anything more than the most simple forms of meditation is necessary. But if you want to be able to do extraordinary things you will probably need extraordinary methods. I don't think Lao tzu and Chung tzu were promoting that we should become wizards. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by wandelaar

[Gerard]

On 5/26/2018 at 11:57 AM, Phoenix3 said:

Neither has much chance of happening, so instead it would be best to teach myself and not rely on the tiny, tiny chance there is an actual teacher nearby,

 

Good luck with that...but you won't go far, unfortunately.

 

Never had I when I met my Bagua teacher in 2008. Bagua in Brisbane was like finding a needle in a haystack...so when the student is ready.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gerard]

On 5/26/2018 at 12:05 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Buddha reached nibbana in mere weeks. Some of his disciples reached nibbana in as little as 7 days (apparently).

 

 

More fairy tales. 

 

Put more effort in finding a teacher than believing in fairy tales.

 

Hint: You have not idea how much you need to manipulate the BODY in order to grasp the MIND. Beyond belief. Utterly mind-blowing stuff.

 

 

An old Chinese saying:

 

1. Want to heal yourself? Learn martial arts

2. Want to fight others? Learn meditation

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Gerard

[Gerard]

It's like the most important principle of existence which I have been so constantly repeating in the past few months:

 

1. Mind creates reality

2. An open Body leads to the Mind (second principle).

 

The trick is to OPEN THE BODY...and this requires:

 

1. A teacher

2. A proven method

3. A student better (as in willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING) than the teacher 

4. Bull mentality: not to give up and endure, and work your ass off as if it was your last day on Earth.

 

Good luck!

[Daemon]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

@ steve

 

It depends on what you want. If you want to meditate as part of following Lao tzu and Chuang tzu, I doubt that anything more than the most simple forms of meditation is necessary. But if you want to be able to do extraordinary things you will probably need extraordinary methods. I don't think Lao tzu and Chung tzu were promoting that we should become wizards. 

 

 

From my perspective, you are correct in the first instance but you are a bit off-piste in the second instance.

The simplest, most natural form of breathing is quite well scientifically established in terms of its life-enhancing benefits. Its practice is also a solid foundation that can be a basis for profound mystical experiences and (because of its scientific basis) it may, to some extent, protect against the grandiose delusions and magical thinking that's so much in evidence on most "spiritual" bulletin boards.

 

☮️

Edited May 27, 2018 by Daemon

[wandelaar]

@ Daemon

 

I think one could achieve extraordinary results by extraordinary methods, but I doubt (that is: am not convinced) that one could thus achieve paranormal effects. Is that what you mean?

[Daemon]

Now hopefully we (@wandelaar and I) might begin to touch on the more nuanced and textured (and abnormal).
Firstly, by definition, there's no scientific evidence for the paranormal because if there was, it would be the normal. So, let's leave that aside?
Secondly, surely to achieve the extraordinary always requires the extraordinary? For example, if you want to achieve any extraordinary level of skill in anything, you generally need to devote an extraordinary amount of time learning it and then practicing it sufficiently to make it your own (although not necessarily a lot of time in the case of (re)learning how to breathe in a more balanced and healthy way than is the norm for most people). But even (re)learning how to breathe healthily and practicing that regularly (enough) is hardly the norm, is it? Even with something so simple, skilled (scientific) coaching feedback is sometimes (but not always) required.

 

☮️

Edited May 27, 2018 by Daemon

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, Daemon said:

Now hopefully we (@wandelaar and I) might begin to touch on the more nuanced and textured (and abnormal).
Firstly, by definition, there's no scientific evidence for the paranormal because if there was, it would be the normal. So, let's leave that aside?

 

That's not the way science works. But we don't have to discuss that, if you don't wish to. Those kind of discussions are generally useless anyway.

 

19 minutes ago, Daemon said:

Secondly, surely to achieve the extraordinary always requires the extraordinary? For example, if you want to achieve any extraordinary level of skill in anything, you generally need to devote an extraordinary amount of time learning it and then practicing it sufficiently to make it your own (although not necessarily a lot of time in the case of (re)learning how to breathe in a more balanced and healthy way than is the norm for most people). But even (re)learning how to breathe healthily and practicing that regularly (enough) is hardly the norm, is it? Even with something so simple, skilled (scientific) coaching feedback is sometimes (but not always) required.

 

☮️

 

Yes - that's what I meant.