Taoist logic?

[Wu Ming Jen]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

That is not what I was referring to. You wrote  "knowledge without application leaves one in the position of a scholar", thereby suggesting that Priest is just another armchair philosopher without any practical experience. That's why I posted the quote about his experience in the martial arts.

OK so now you understand that the method of logic trying to figure out Taoism is not the best tool for the job. This professor is using logic conditioning and not transcending mind itself.

 

Any act can be verified by the mind This allows for unholy things to come into being and also  mis directing humanity being divine in true nature 

 

Transcending the simple function of mind and its battle with duality. This is not logical for the human mind to rationalize.So scholars that dabble in the arts even, using logic as foundation will not be able to penetrate the mystery.

 

The great mystery can not be comprehended by mind, the laws of yin and yang do not apply, life and death do not apply, space and time have no reference point. Sooo this logical method in my opinion will tie one down or  like holding on to a heavy rock and trying to swim to the surface Put down the rock IMO 

[wandelaar]

@ Wu Ming Jen

 

So now you call them "scholars that dabble in the arts". Why dabble? Do you know them? This is no serious discussion, and I am not going to waste anymore time on it.

Edited May 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

the laws of yin and yang do not apply,

 

Qigong Master Zhang Hongbao calls "yin matter" the "golden key" as superluminal information healing.

So I think the laws of yin and yang definitely do apply to the "virtual information field" as qigong master Yan Xin calls it.

This is what makes it very amazing - that we can use the body to harmonize the mind and vice versa - to even transcend spirit into the Emptiness - as an eternal yin-yang process of transformation.

So for example the Yang Shen is vaporized back into Yuan Qi at the final stage of "immortality" but as DAoist alchemist Wang Liping states we can restore Yuan Jing by six hours a day of full lotus meditation for a year - not missing a day. But as the book TAoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality states - it is with the left leg on top that "yang" embraces the "yin" of the lower body - and so this means celibacy is necessary of course and not losing energy out of the skull from talking or looking.

 

As for the "concrete thinking" I referred to before - it is right brain dominant as visualization and the oldest definition of Qi is to put the Fire under the Water - or the Shen as visualization into the Earth - to turn Water into Air. This alchemy process is found throughout Asia via the Bronze Age - as DNA science has proven that before 1200 BCE - the Asian cultures from the Levant to China and India had more cross-cultural communication.

 

So "concrete thinking" means to focus the mind but to do so through proprioception - as science has shown - with the eyes closed then the parietal lobe as "imagination" becomes a top-down attention process that turns the otherwise subconscious occipital lobe into the superconscious attention of alchemical meditation.

 

So as qigong master Jim Nance explains - if you can maintain that focus - then time stands still as a "snapshot" of what you are visualizing - but as you hold that using the breathing - the "the energy does the healing on its own."

 

So this is the Emptiness that does the healing - the qigong masters "embody" the Emptiness and so send out Yuan Shen to heal people - each spirit individualized out of the virtual information field - and floats out to each person being healed - but it is the superluminal "yin matter" that accesses this information.

 

So what "logic" deals with precognitive information healing? Only quantum relativistic logic in terms of Western science - Dr. Stuart Hameroff has a paper on this and what free will means - in his collaboration with Sir Roger Penrose. Precogitive visions are real but it is the Emptiness as the 5th dimension that enables it.

 

So the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality has very detailed information on the "logic" of Daoist philosophy. Western science is only getting glimpses about this truth of reality through quantum biology - noncommutative geometry as relativistic quantum physics and quantum psychology.

 

Actually we have to rely on the Taoist logic to figure out the details of the training - this is an ancient science that is from the original human culture - the San Bushmen.

 

People in the West "reify" Western science as a religion - and so think Western logic is somehow superior. Buddhist logic is "neti, neti" or "neither this, nor that" - and so is part of the "divide and average" math of the Brahmin ritual geometry religion. So the Buddhist logic is easily assimilated into Western science - and so we are to consider that Western science can be integrated with Buddhist logic and therefore Buddhist meditation can be part of Western science.

 

But the problem with "divide and average" Buddhist logic is that it is trying to maintain the left-brain egotistical awareness. So for example in Advaita Vedanta you can just accept that the formless awareness is in charge. So if you create another Yang Sheng - another physical body as "matter" that is spiritualized - maybe you are not aware that you have done so! Poonjaji had this happen to him during his Birthday - he attended six different birthday parties at the same time!!

 

Obviously that is impossible based on Western logic - but based on quantum relativity - we can deduce that only the formless awareness or Yuan Qi was at the "same time" as the Emptiness - the instantaneous reference frame of spacetime - but due to relativity of the Shen - the light - then can be in the future or the past - relative to the spiritual ego that experiences the Emptiness.

 

So it is at the "same time" from the perspective of the Emptiness but from the perspective of your Shen or spirit awareness as visualization - it is in the future as precognition or in the past - as you experience it a 2nd time by "finding out about it" - experiencing it again in "real time", etc.

 

So quantum relativistic logic does account for this - but it is only in Mahayana Buddhism that a person is supposed to maintain the spiritual awareness or wisdom, as Master Nan, Huai-Chin and William Bodri detail in their "Measuring Meditation" book - to know what is happening in the Emptiness at all times.

 

So for example if you levitate - as Phra Acharn Mun had his meditation buddy meditate - when the person realized he was levitating then he fell back down. Because as soon as his left brain "logic" kicked in that was his ego causing an energy blockage as the past time and not maintaining the future time as superluminal anti-gravity energy. And so the meditation buddy of Phra Acharn Mun had to train his samadhi to maintain his focus - with no left brain conceptual thought - while he also maintained his levitation as a "snap shot" of present time - as a spiritual strobe light so to speak.

 

This is done in Western science now - it is called the Quantum Zeno Effect - so as long as you keep "observing" the phenomenon then you are never "taking a measurement" and so the energy as non-local quantum entanglement never "collapses" back into mass as particles. This is what birds do for migration - to use quantum entanglement to convert photons into electrochemical signals - then the bird has to resonate with the Schumann ELF waves (alpha brain waves). This is the same as in human meditation as well - it is our natural resonance with the Schumann ELF waves of the body shaking 7 to 9 times per second - this creates the Yuan Qi energy field.

 

 

[Stosh]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Consider the following statement P: "We can not make a true statement on the Tao.

 

If P is true, than we cannot make a true statement on the Tao. But P is a statement on  so than P must be fals if P is true than P is false. This can not be the case, so we have to conclude that P is false.

 

By this proof we have found that P has to be false. And so we have proven the following statement Q to be true:  "We can make a true statement on the Tao."

 

But what is the true statement about the Tao that we can make? Well, at least we have the statement Q that is both true and about the Tao. 

 

 

 

Statements are models About that which exists either in the mind or in reality . Statements are hot air which we deem true if they appear to correlate with whats true.. the Words are not True, logicians forget this when they posit that a verbal statement needs to conform to the reality which exists. The process is to determine that which is true so it can be used to improve the model,  Not to confuse onesself with the model. 

Models can be considered valid whether or not the premise is true, and some valid models have exceptions. 

[Stosh]

Take x is y, and y is not x, then x is or is not y or its both or neither. This is a four possible outcome permutation. The universe itself is whatever it is and its not what its not ,tautologically. When we know what x and y are , we will know what x is or is not, we will know if the premise is true , until then ,all you have is a possibly invalid logical statement. 

[Starjumper]

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Qigong Master Zhang Hongbao calls "yin matter" the "golden key" as superluminal information healing.

So I think the laws of yin and yang definitely do apply to the "virtual information field" as qigong master Yan Xin calls it.

This is what makes it very amazing - that we can use the body to harmonize the mind and vice versa - to even transcend spirit into the Emptiness - as an eternal yin-yang process of transformation.

So for example the Yang Shen is vaporized back into Yuan Qi at the final stage of "immortality" but as DAoist alchemist Wang Liping states we can restore Yuan Jing by six hours a day of full lotus meditation for a year - not missing a day. But as the book TAoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality states - it is with the left leg on top that "yang" embraces the "yin" of the lower body - and so this means celibacy is necessary of course and not losing energy out of the skull from talking or looking.

 

As for the "concrete thinking" I referred to before - it is right brain dominant as visualization and the oldest definition of Qi is to put the Fire under the Water - or the Shen as visualization into the Earth - to turn Water into Air. This alchemy process is found throughout Asia via the Bronze Age - as DNA science has proven that before 1200 BCE - the Asian cultures from the Levant to China and India had more cross-cultural communication.

 

So "concrete thinking" means to focus the mind but to do so through proprioception - as science has shown - with the eyes closed then the parietal lobe as "imagination" becomes a top-down attention process that turns the otherwise subconscious occipital lobe into the superconscious attention of alchemical meditation.

 

So as qigong master Jim Nance explains - if you can maintain that focus - then time stands still as a "snapshot" of what you are visualizing - but as you hold that using the breathing - the "the energy does the healing on its own."

 

So this is the Emptiness that does the healing - the qigong masters "embody" the Emptiness and so send out Yuan Shen to heal people - each spirit individualized out of the virtual information field - and floats out to each person being healed - but it is the superluminal "yin matter" that accesses this information.

 

So what "logic" deals with precognitive information healing? Only quantum relativistic logic in terms of Western science - Dr. Stuart Hameroff has a paper on this and what free will means - in his collaboration with Sir Roger Penrose. Precogitive visions are real but it is the Emptiness as the 5th dimension that enables it.

 

So the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality has very detailed information on the "logic" of Daoist philosophy. Western science is only getting glimpses about this truth of reality through quantum biology - noncommutative geometry as relativistic quantum physics and quantum psychology.

 

Actually we have to rely on the Taoist logic to figure out the details of the training - this is an ancient science that is from the original human culture - the San Bushmen.

 

People in the West "reify" Western science as a religion - and so think Western logic is somehow superior. Buddhist logic is "neti, neti" or "neither this, nor that" - and so is part of the "divide and average" math of the Brahmin ritual geometry religion. So the Buddhist logic is easily assimilated into Western science - and so we are to consider that Western science can be integrated with Buddhist logic and therefore Buddhist meditation can be part of Western science.

 

But the problem with "divide and average" Buddhist logic is that it is trying to maintain the left-brain egotistical awareness. So for example in Advaita Vedanta you can just accept that the formless awareness is in charge. So if you create another Yang Sheng - another physical body as "matter" that is spiritualized - maybe you are not aware that you have done so! Poonjaji had this happen to him during his Birthday - he attended six different birthday parties at the same time!!

 

Obviously that is impossible based on Western logic - but based on quantum relativity - we can deduce that only the formless awareness or Yuan Qi was at the "same time" as the Emptiness - the instantaneous reference frame of spacetime - but due to relativity of the Shen - the light - then can be in the future or the past - relative to the spiritual ego that experiences the Emptiness.

 

So it is at the "same time" from the perspective of the Emptiness but from the perspective of your Shen or spirit awareness as visualization - it is in the future as precognition or in the past - as you experience it a 2nd time by "finding out about it" - experiencing it again in "real time", etc.

 

So quantum relativistic logic does account for this - but it is only in Mahayana Buddhism that a person is supposed to maintain the spiritual awareness or wisdom, as Master Nan, Huai-Chin and William Bodri detail in their "Measuring Meditation" book - to know what is happening in the Emptiness at all times.

 

So for example if you levitate - as Phra Acharn Mun had his meditation buddy meditate - when the person realized he was levitating then he fell back down. Because as soon as his left brain "logic" kicked in that was his ego causing an energy blockage as the past time and not maintaining the future time as superluminal anti-gravity energy. And so the meditation buddy of Phra Acharn Mun had to train his samadhi to maintain his focus - with no left brain conceptual thought - while he also maintained his levitation as a "snap shot" of present time - as a spiritual strobe light so to speak.

 

This is done in Western science now - it is called the Quantum Zeno Effect - so as long as you keep "observing" the phenomenon then you are never "taking a measurement" and so the energy as non-local quantum entanglement never "collapses" back into mass as particles. This is what birds do for migration - to use quantum entanglement to convert photons into electrochemical signals - then the bird has to resonate with the Schumann ELF waves (alpha brain waves). This is the same as in human meditation as well - it is our natural resonance with the Schumann ELF waves of the body shaking 7 to 9 times per second - this creates the Yuan Qi energy field.

 

The good news is if you ignore him he might go away ... hopefully.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

The good news is if you ignore him he might go away ... hopefully.

 

Kind of like how your CIA teacher was part of the assassination of the president of Ecuador?

https://eagle.sbs.arizona.edu/sc/report_poster_detail.php?abs=3404

Quote

While the changes in knowledge are accompanied by changes in brain - the quantum mechanical brain states themselves would get frozen if monitored at sufficiently small space-time intervals. This postulated phenomenon may be termed the Neuro-Biological Quantum Zeno Effect (NBQZE). Its experience would be akin to that of a yogic trance state.

 

Causal Connection Between Consciousness and Time: The Emergence of the Neuro-biological Quantum Zeno Effect  Dnyandeo Patil , Moninder Singh Modgil PhD (Cyclic Time Physics) Alumini- IIT Kanpur, India,Santosh Kaware M.Tech. (Power System) Dr. BATU.Lonere, India, Dnyandeo Patil Electrical Engg, Debendra Behera B.Sc. (Consciousness Research, Alchemy of God - A Holistic Research Group of Theoretical Physicists/ Researc, NAVI MUMBAI, MAHARASHTRA India)   P2

 

So - the Quantum Zeno Effect relies on a microsecond pulse of light - and the proprioception attention is also at the microsecond wavelength of sound - as ultrasound frequency.

 

 

So this is the Yuan Qi - at zero time - but requires turning the Shen back on itself - as the phase wave of a non-zero rest mass of light - the phase of light is noncommutative phase as noncommutative spacetime - the superluminal momentum as the hidden Emptiness of light, the virtual information from the future.

 

This is the same as the "three gunas" of India - the oldest philosophy of India. Both the T'ai Chi and the three gunas are from nonwestern music theory....

 

Quote

Dr. Moninder Singh Modgil specializes in the “Godel Universe,” which is a rotating universe solution of Einstein’s field equations. He received his PhD in General Relativistic Physics from the Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur, India. He did his B.Tech. (Hons.) at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kharagpur, India, in Aeronautical Engineering and has worked on the aerodynamic design of the "Tejas" fighter jet. He has also worked on a collaborative atmospheric project between the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in Boulder, Colorado.

 

[steve]

1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

I prefer wisdom over logic.

Wisdom transcends human brain limits, it is simple, yet beatiful, one tiny drop of wisdom is  more valuable than massive walls of texts and endless bla bla bla.

I tend to be in this camp as well.

 

1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

There are so many books and teachers, yet there is no wisdom to be found.

Plenty of wisdom out there (and inside), just need to be ready and open to it.

[wandelaar]

Did I say that meditation, or martial arts, or intuition, or wisdom, or allegorical stories, etc. are useless and need to be replaced by logic? No - not at all. Did I say that we need lots of books en massive texts to follow a Taoist path? No -  not at all. But it doesn't seem to matter what I do or do not post, because as long as I periodically drop the word "logic" the bashing will go on. The same thing happened earlier with the expression "rule of thumb".

The irony of all this logic-bashing is that computers and the internet (and thus The Dao Bums) wouldn't even exist without the invention of Boolean logic. But never mind, the great advantage of attacking modern logic without knowing anything about it is that one isn't hindered by any knowledge of what in our modern world does or does not depends on logic. And another useful advantage of not knowing about logic is that without some logical training one doesn't recognize what are solid arguments and what are fallacies. So if one wants to follow one's antipathy against logic without being hindered by considerations about correct argumentation then indeed not studying logic is the right thing to do.

[vonkrankenhaus]

 

51 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

The irony of all this logic-bashing is that computers and the internet (and thus The Dao Bums) wouldn't even exist without the invention of Boolean logic.

 

Computers:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/mar/21/ancient-book-wisdom-i-ching-computer-binary-code

 

"The I-Ching was far more ambitious than the current practical applications of binary code, even in the most powerful supercomputer. The 64 hexagrams of the I-Ching claim to represent nothing less than the archetypal situations of human life itself."

 

Physics:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr#/media/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Niels_Bohr.svg

 

"All antagonisms are complimentary"

 

 

Taoist logic at work.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

Edited May 24, 2018 by vonkrankenhaus

[voidisyinyang]

45 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

 

Computers:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/mar/21/ancient-book-wisdom-i-ching-computer-binary-code

 

"The I-Ching was far more ambitious than the current practical applications of binary code, even in the most powerful supercomputer. The 64 hexagrams of the I-Ching claim to represent nothing less than the archetypal situations of human life itself."

 

Physics:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr#/media/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Niels_Bohr.svg

 

"All antagonisms are complimentary"

 

 

Taoist logic at work.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

 

How Ancient Chinese Philosophical Thoughts Consistent with Modern Science: The Consistence between Lao Tzu, I Ching and Orch OR  Xiangqun Chen (Philosophy, Nanchang University of China, Nanchang, Jiangxi China)   C18
 

Quote

Lao Tzu (or 'Laozi') was the ancient Chinese founder of Taoism, one of 3 major Chinese philosophies (alongside Buddhism and Confucianism). His many famous quotes include 'the key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness', and he advocated living in harmony with 'the Tao', the 'path' or 'principle', a set of values intrinsic to nature and reality. Lao Tzu also formalized the 'I Ching', a system of human behaviors and mental states based on hexagrams, sets of 6 binary symbols with 64 possible states. These three aspects of Lao Tzu's ancient wisdom appear consistent with modern scientific approaches to consciousness, e.g. involving self-similar fractal-like patterns in brain-wide interactions among neurons seen as the EEG (~ 0 to 100 hertz, 'Hz'). The particular theory of 'orchestrated objective reduction' ('Orch OR') considers EEG patterns to derive from self-similar, faster, finer scale quantum computations in cytoskeletal microtubules inside those neurons, unified ('brain-wide') by quantum coherence and entanglement (1). In Orch OR, consciousness can resonate across, and move among different spatiotemporal scales, akin to music. Supporting this idea, Bandyopadhyay's group (2-4) has shown self-similar quantum resonances in microtubules at kilohertz, megahertz, gigahertz and terahertz frequencies. Orch OR further suggests higher frequency quantum processes relate to conscious experiences of greater intensity, connected to the structure of spacetime geometry, and influenced by Penrose 'Platonic values' embedded in that structure. Accordingly, Orch OR is consistent with Lao Tzu's higher dimensions (frequency domains) of consciousness, and harmonizing with the Tao (Penrose Platonic values). We also see a possible connection to hexagram-based catalogs of mental states in the I Ching. In Orch OR, memory and conscious information occur in hexagonal lattices of microtubule polymers composed of the protein tubulin. Craddock et al (5,6) have shown how synaptic information may be encoded in microtubules by CaMKII enzymes, each containing hexagons of 6 bits of information. Hexagon-based mental processes are also seen in the Nobel prize-winning (7) work on 'grid cells', showing how spatial location is represented in hexagonal grids, with different scales at different layers in the brain's entorhinal cortex. In this presentation we will compare the 64 states of the I Ching with 64 states of a microtubule lattice region. If Lao Tzu and many others were correct, wisdom and knowledge may be gleaned from subtle quantum harmony with the structure of the universe. 1) Hameroff, Penrose Phys Life Revs, 2) Sahu et al, 2013a, 3) Sahu et al, 2013b, 4) Sahu et al, 2014, 5) Craddock et al, 2012, 6) Craddock et al, 2013, 7) O'Keefe, Moser, Moser

https://eagle.sbs.arizona.edu/sc/report_poster_detail.php?abs=3321

Can Quantum AI Produce Consciousness?  Xiangqun Chen , Stuart Hameroff (Philosophy, Southeast University of China, Nanchang, Jiangxi China)   C22
 

Quote

Quantum computers use quantum bits, or 'qubits' in which information is represented as 'quantum superpositions', e.g. of both 1 AND 0 which interact/compute by entanglement according to the Schrodinger equation. The quantum computation then undergoes reduction, or 'collapse' to definite bit states of 1 OR 0 as the solution. Recently, Google's 'D Wave' quantum computer was demonstrated to have computational speedup unavailable in classical computers. The D Wave qubit is a Josephson junction in which electron current flows through a superconductor either clockwise (e.g.'1'), counter-clockwise ('0'), or in quantum superposition of both directions ('1 and 0'), and is the basis for quantum artificial intelligence (quantum AI). Thus far at least, classical AI has failed to produce consciousness. Can quantum AI succeed where classical AI has failed? A quantum computational basis for consciousness has been proposed in the Orch OR theory of Penrose and Hameroff. They suggest consciousness involves quantum computations in microtubules inside brain neurons undergoes reduction, or collapse by an objective threshold (objective reduction - 'OR') given by the indeterminacy principle E=h/t. The quantum computations are 'orchestrated' by cognition, memory and resonances to give full, rich conscious experiences. But E depends on the amount of superpositioned mass (or equivalent spacetime curvature) separated from itself. In Orch OR, electrons (very low mass) originate the superposition but at biological temperatures couple to displacement and superposition of their atomic nuclei. Accordingly, E of ~10^18 tubulins (microtubule subunits) comprising about 1 percent of brain microtubules would reach threshold for OR in 10^-7 seconds. Interference of these events are proposed to give rise to slower perceptual gestalts and 'beats' seen as EEG. In the D Wave quantum computer, superpositions consist of electrons which have very low mass, and because of extremely cold temperatures probably do not couple significantly to their nuclei. Thus, assuming Orch OR is correct, the D Wave or similar quantum computers would require either a very long time t, or a very large set of qubits. As the ratio of the electron mass to a proton is about 1800, and assuming an average atomic nuclear mass of 10 protons and neutrons, a D Wave quantum computer would require ~18,000 times more qubits, or ~18,000 times longer to reach threshold for conscious moments than does a human brain according to Orch OR. Thus quantum computers offer a plausible pathway to artificial consciousness.

 

So to understand the hexagonal quantum nonlocal "yin-yang" logic - you can study my recent blog posts on graphene at http://elixirfield.blogspot.com

 

I have corresponded with both Dr. Stuart Hameroff - and the Dr. Bandyopadhyay referenced above. The latter admits that no one can know the original phase of the Bloch Sphere that he proposes to use to create AI - and also they emphasize that the "music" used is NOT Western music but rather anharmonic music as Indian Raga tuning - based on the "three gunas" of the Octave, Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth - the same logic as Daoist music with the Emptiness as the Octave, Yang as the Perfect Fifth and Yin as the Perfect Fourth.

 

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Logic means putting things in their proper place(s)

 

So logic will continue to be valid until we all have everything (via sorting) in it's proper place..

 

Then and only then will we have grounds for pure wisdom.. which would essentially be telling the truth and acting with Free will..

[wandelaar]

6 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Computers:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/mar/21/ancient-book-wisdom-i-ching-computer-binary-code

 

"The I-Ching was far more ambitious than the current practical applications of binary code, even in the most powerful supercomputer. The 64 hexagrams of the I-Ching claim to represent nothing less than the archetypal situations of human life itself."

 

Physics:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr#/media/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Niels_Bohr.svg

 

"All antagonisms are complimentary"

 

 

Taoist logic at work.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

 

And the fallacies go on and on. If computers and quantum physics are such a great thing (or even amount to "Taoist logic at work") , than why didn't the Taoists develop them way before western science? Well - probably because they didn't like reasoning and logic, and advanced forms of technology. So that's why there is no Taoist logic at work here. And things haven't changed that much, as we can see in this topic.

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Logic means putting things in their proper place(s)

 

If things are out of their proper place I will suggest that someone moved them.  Wu wei baby!

 

[steve]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Did I say that meditation, or martial arts, or intuition, or wisdom, or allegorical stories, etc. are useless and need to be replaced by logic? No - not at all. Did I say that we need lots of books en massive texts to follow a Taoist path? No -  not at all. But it doesn't seem to matter what I do or do not post, because as long as I periodically drop the word "logic" the bashing will go on. The same thing happened earlier with the expression "rule of thumb".

The irony of all this logic-bashing is that computers and the internet (and thus The Dao Bums) wouldn't even exist without the invention of Boolean logic. But never mind, the great advantage of attacking modern logic without knowing anything about it is that one isn't hindered by any knowledge of what in our modern world does or does not depends on logic. And another useful advantage of not knowing about logic is that without some logical training one doesn't recognize what are solid arguments and what are fallacies. So if one wants to follow one's antipathy against logic without being hindered by considerations about correct argumentation then indeed not studying logic is the right thing to do.

 

I have no beef with logic.

It has its value and its place.

I do think that it has limited utility in spiritual development, the Buddhist path of sutra notwithstanding.

My sense is that the movement of Daoism was, and is, towards a deeper connection to natural processes.

Generally speaking, rational thought and logic have a tendency to create more distance from that natural state.

Perhaps that is one reason why there is limited enthusiasm for pursuing logic in a Daoist context.

Just my relatively uneducated $.02.

 

[Stosh]

17 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I have no beef with logic.

It has its value and its place.

I do think that it has limited utility in spiritual development, the Buddhist path of sutra notwithstanding.

My sense is that the movement of Daoism was, and is, towards a deeper connection to natural processes.

Generally speaking, rational thought and logic have a tendency to create more distance from that natural state.

Perhaps that is one reason why there is limited enthusiasm for pursuing logic in a Daoist context.

Just my relatively uneducated $.02.

 

IMO, The sutras factored Bigly , it appears, for Gautama himself , and they're all over the place in Buddhism ! 

Its only when one considers logic wrongly, that it takes ideas away from being a good model ... imo ,, then again ,

Much of buddhism may have gotten away from that guys original teachings , and so it would then be true ,

that in Buddhist pursuit now, that logic could be of little utility. 

[wandelaar]

@ steve

 

I never said logic could take the place of spiritual practice, but people apparently don't read my posts but just emotionally overreact to the word "logic" as they previously did to the expression "rule of thumb". There is no real discussion going on. They are attacking a straw man.

 

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

(Oh good heavens, that's a link about logic. For Tao's sake please don't read it!)

[Starjumper]

11 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

Kind of like how your CIA teacher was part of the assassination of the president of Ecuador?

 

At first I though you had been eating too many smart pills, but then I noticed the question mark at the end there, which is in it's proper place, so we're good.

 

Quote

https://eagle.sbs.arizona.edu/sc/report_poster_detail.php?abs=3404

 

That actually makes a bit of sense so I'll make a wild guess here and say you didn't write it.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Starjumper

[voidisyinyang]

30 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

At first I though you had been eating too many smart pills, but then I noticed the question mark at the end there, which is in it's proper place, so we're good.

 

 

That actually makes a bit of sense so I'll make a wild guess here and say you didn't write it.

 

We all should just ignore me right? haha.

 

O.K. so to understand the yin-yang quantum nonlocal logic of the hexagon referred to - you can notice in my blogspot how I made the same connection between graphene and microtubules - as this Chinese philosophy dude does.

 

So by nano-engineering a single atom layer molecule graphene literally has no height to it - so that means it also has no wavelength - since wavelength assumes an amplitude as height measurement. So that means the covalent bonds as a hexagonal crystal lattice cause 1 electron to be free for each atom - of the six in the hexagon. So the electron has no mass since it is just a pure spin 1/2 charge that is delocalized - and so the origin of charge is from the virtual photons - from the future - superluminal charge.

 

So there is no band gap - it's called a Dirac - something - point - anyway the valence band is not just a "hole" but actual antimatter positron since it is trapped with this delocalized spin 1/2 or half quanta logic - this means the electron is in two places at the same time and so the charge has no resistance - and so no matter what the amplitude is as current - the charge velocity as momentum stays the same - since it originates from the superluminal virtual photons. There is a direct proportional relationship of the frequency of the energy to the momentum.

 

So with microtubules in our bodies - in effect they are metamaterials - which means that the tubulin is smaller and so has a "sub-wavelength" as a reverse time capturing of virtual photons from the future - with water being split - also with serotonin or tryptophan as activating the dipole bond. This means, as Dr. Bandyopadhyay documented in his Nanoengineering lab in Japan - that the microtubules

[voidisyinyang]

Where was I - splitting up my comment before thedaobums shuts down my login link....

 

http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-blue-light-of-blues-music-ii.html

 

so this article gives the details of the Daoist Logic - based on music as noncommutative phase.

 

 Microtubule is six times bigger than single protein tubulin yet is 3000 times more electrically conductive than single tubulin protein
 

Quote

Information for us is a time cycle that can be modeled in particular geometric shapes. It is all about one rhythmic vibration that arises through integration of geometries using 2,800 frequencies over 10^20 Hz.

 

yeah so in other words the charge does not experience greater resistance even though it is 6 times bigger because the charge is due to the superluminal virtual photons as quantum nonlocal logic or the noncommutative phase Logos - as 2, 3, infinity.

 

So with spin 1/2 charge - this means that it's origin can not be identified since the measurement requires a conversion of time into space as amplitude wavelength. So we are taking about pure time as frequency energy - that has absolutely no wavelength to it. De Broglie figured this out as the Law of Phase Harmony - so that Frequency is to Time as Momentum is to Wavelength. So that you have have reverse time instead of "sub-wavelength" - and instead of having say water as a denser medium that creates a superluminal "bending" of light as a group wave of the photons - instead it is literally the Ether as noncommutative spacetime that is doing the "bending" of light.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

So I looked at the last few posts. 

And I went back a few more. 

 

There was a statement that Lao Tzu formalized the I Ching. 

 

And a lot of technospeak trying to connect (what is probably the result of mystical experience) to modern science. 

 

And I ask: is there a connection, or is it just an attempt to validate the experience because of some unknown inner need? 

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

And the fallacies go on and on. If computers and quantum physics are such a great thing (or even amount to "Taoist logic at work") , than why didn't the Taoists develop them way before western science? Well - probably because they didn't like reasoning and logic, and advanced forms of technology. So that's why there is no Taoist logic at work here. And things haven't changed that much, as we can see in this topic.

 

You are confusing technology with science. Quantum biology has verified Daoist logic - it just can not be reproduced as "off the shelf" technology based on "double blind" studies - because there is no boundary condition that defines the time as a spatial measurement.

 

Western logic has to convert time to a spatial measurement - and so if you really study WEstern logic you find the mathematicians admitting that it is circular logic. I will find this for you.

 

Quote

....at present we do so for axiom systems for which no one can give a convincing demonstration of consistency.

So that is Princeton math professor Edward Nelson - you can read the full pdf - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiI96TCyJ7bAhWE8oMKHT_EAsUQFghIMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.math.princeton.edu%2F~nelson%2Fpapers%2Ffaith.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3D6kCqXFL3UyMwYQ1MEbZl

 

Math and Faith.

 

 

So this is precisely what I refer to regarding Godel's Theorem - I quote math professor AK Dewdney in my 2012 pdf - saying that either Godel is correct or mathematical logic is inherently inconsistent.

 

 

So Nelson takes the "Shut up and calculate" approach to science - this is also the mainstream view of quantum physics as the Copenhagen Interpretation.

 

And so we are left to "debate" - just how much "getting on with mathematics" works. You seem to think that computers are a great thing and so Taoists should have invented them if their logic was real. But Silicon Valley has the greatest concentration of toxic waste sites in the U.S. - and the fastest increase of energy use is from cell phones. Also cell phones cause brain cancer - my cousin, same age as me, just died from brain cancer and he was always using his cell phone to build up his real estate business valued at quarter of a billion dollars.

 

Technology in the West is a "supply side" imposition - so you practically now have to use a cell phone to be considered a real "person." I choose not to. Using the internet is actually now considered a legal right in many places - but it is also an amazing Big Brother surveillance operation. haha.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

[wandelaar]

52 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

At first I though you had been eating too many smart pills, but then I noticed the question mark at the end there, which is in it's proper place, so we're good.

 

That actually makes a bit of sense so I'll make a wild guess here and say you didn't write it.

 

Looking at Wikipedia I find that there actually is a Quantum Zeno Effect. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect

 

But I don't know how it relates to consciousness.

 

The posts of voidisyinyang generally consist of snippets of legit science haphazardly pasted together until they form massive incomprehensible posts.