Using Shen to change negative thought patterns

[danteyun]

In my opinion, Shen(神) is similar with the subconsciousness, and  there are several kinds of Shen, such as organ-shen Wuguan(五官)-shen awareness-shen Yin-shen(阴神) Yang-shen(阳神)... and the Dantian function is different for our practing, and very important,  the bottom Tandian is to practice 炼精化气, the middle is to 炼气化神, and the top is to 炼神还虚, and the final step is to 炼虚合道, when the  bottom Dantian is full of energy, it will flow into the middle, and the middle is the same to top. 

[Bindi]

Is Shen the energy medium that allows the subconscious to be easily and clearly perceived by the conscious mind? 

[KuroShiro]

51 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Is Shen the energy medium that allows the subconscious to be easily and clearly perceived by the conscious mind? 

 

In Classical Chinese Medicine we have Body/Mind/Spirit (Shen?) - 3 that are 1 - but from what I've read it gets more complicated. Is Soul the same as Shen?

 

I don't think you're going to get a definite answer (by anyone alive) of what is Shen. You might want to start study (if you haven't yet) Chinese Medicine (knowledge and wisdom that is beyond words) and Neidan Classics and it's commentaries.

 

In English the teachings of Master Jeffrey Yuen (and the work of his students) and of Elisabeth Rochat De La Vallée and Claude Larre might be a good place to start.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

The discerning conscious mind plays such a crucial role in the transformative process because it is here where we make choices.

[danteyun]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

Is Shen the energy medium that allows the subconscious to be easily and clearly perceived by the conscious mind? 

Not exactly, Shen is complicated to explain, need everyone to experience it, beyond the words. 

If we don't activate it, the Yushen(元神) can only do something in subconscious state. If you are interesting in Taoist Culture, even eager to practice the profound meaning, I can recommend you an ancient Taoist book. 

which is <<钟吕传道集>> Zhong Lv Chuan Dao Ji

[Bindi]

On 11/05/2018 at 10:51 AM, danteyun said:

Not exactly, Shen is complicated to explain, need everyone to experience it, beyond the words. 

If we don't activate it, the Yushen(元神) can only do something in subconscious state. If you are interesting in Taoist Culture, even eager to practice the profound meaning, I can recommend you an ancient Taoist book. 

which is <<钟吕传道集>> Zhong Lv Chuan Dao Ji

 

Hi danteyun, thankyou for your recommendation, I haven't been able to get the translated book yet, but I've been busy and only had time to start trying to find a copy this morning. 

 

I found a brief summary in which the author of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji refers to shen as the pure yang lotus flower that can finally free from the body, though the author of the summary notes that this is contradictory as the "Dan-sha should be the origin of the energy that could transform the body into the immortal state."  

 

Quote

 

the efforts of the practices would result in the appearance of dan-sha 丹砂 (cinnabar). And the brightness of this dan-sha was interpreted as the shen 神 (the pure yang) that could finally free from the body (shell) and wander through the space. This shen, as he said, is the lotus flower and the body left behind is the lotus root. The argument here is clearly a contradiction. Dan-sha should be the origin of the energy that could transform the body into the immortal state. And this should be a real physical change. 

http://www.taoiststudy.com/taoist_alchemy/zhong-lü-chuan-dao-ji

 

 

Please could you explain Yushen briefly? 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Bindi

[danteyun]

You meant YuanShen(元神)?

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

could finally free from the body (shell) and wander through the space. This shen, as he said, is the lotus flower and the body left behind is the lotus root.

who can wander through the space? thats the YangShen mostly, just different state of YuanShen,  YangShen(not YinShen) is the final purpose, and Yinshen and Yangshen all belong to Yuanshen, just different state. we need to practice the YuanShen more powerful, get rid of negative energy/emotions etc, just need to be pure Yang.

About DanSha(丹砂cinnabar), its just a metaphor, not the DanShan material.

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, danteyun said:

You meant YuanShen(元神)?

who can wander through the space? thats the YangShen mostly, just different state of YuanShen,  YangShen(not YinShen) is the final purpose, and Yinshen and Yangshen all belong to Yuanshen, just different state. we need to practice the YuanShen more powerful, get rid of negative energy/emotions etc, just need to be pure Yang.

About DanSha(丹砂cinnabar), its just a metaphor, not the DanShan material.

 

I was curious what you meant exactly by this line from your earlier post "If we don't activate it, the Yushen(元神) can only do something in subconscious state." From the Chinese character it seems like you are using Yushen and YuanShen in the same way. 

 

Just to make sure, the YangShen then is equivalent to 'the pure yang', the 'yang lotus flower', the immortal spirit, the golden embryo, etc? 

 

And Yuan Shen is the energy that nurtures the YangShen, as well as finally clearing all negative thoughts and emotions and conditioning? 

 

Is it 'activated' Yuan Shen that circulates in the MCO? 

 

 

[danteyun]

YangShen is immortal for us, and the golden embryo(圣胎) is the beginning of YangShen, it will give birth to YangShen, which process needs a long time, and practicing it for a long time. YuanShen isn't the energy to nurture the YangShen, they are the same, different stage different name, the energy is the innate/pure QI.

If we want to intermit the Samsara, we need to find/practice it and keep the mindfulness in the heart always, and don't be delusional/desired for outside things. 

Do you meditate/zazen?

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

The Yuan Shen is original spirit; it does not recognize time or place.  The Shi Shen is intelligent spirit.  At the beginning of human life there is no existence of a Shi Shen or intelligent self.  When humans learn the access to the material world this gives birth to the Shi Shen.  Humans are meant to evolve from the innocence of a newborn baby, to the intelligence of youth, and on to the wisdom of the peak power of the Shi Shen.  At the same time Shi Shen is evolving, Yuan Shen starts from a birth of spooky capabilities and evolves towards numbness or unawareness of its true ability in most people.  Yuan Shen and Shi Shen are like master and servant living in the same room with their position and power changing all the time.  The wise man learns to be a dummy and the intelligent man fights for an empty statue of “self.”

 

Sometimes Shi Shen says things that may conflict with the Yuan Shen.  That is, the mind conflicts with the original spirit.  The Yuan Shen however, never gives up on the pursuit for purity.  The original spirit is kindness, which we never give up.  However; the Shi Shen sometimes contradicts this original spirit.  The Shi Shen may not allow the Yuan Shen to speak or act freely.  We must learn to live and let live!  Live and let live is equal to unconditional love.  Once you are able to love unconditionally then you will break out of the cycle of living in the expectations of others.  Learn to forgive yourself of being a victim.  Only then can you overpower your pains and aches.  Stupid people look for perfection in themselves, others and the world.  Life is not perfect!  If you always try to defend yourself for being a victim, then you are already a victim again.  There is no need to defend yourself!  Give up the will or desire to “win.”   Give up the fear of death.  There is no need for offense or defense.  Life is merely a puzzle.  Welcome your opportunity to solve this puzzle.  Always look for the other side, the dialectic side of "me".  If you can know one side of “me” then you can know other side of "me".  Strive to understand the opposite of what you are feeling.  However, always be consistent to what you believe.  Walk The Talk!  What you believe can change but until then, walk the talk for what you believe today! Do not blame and become a victim.

[dwai]

On 5/14/2018 at 5:42 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

The Yuan Shen is original spirit; it does not recognize time or place.  The Shi Shen is intelligent spirit.  At the beginning of human life there is no existence of a Shi Shen or intelligent self.  When humans learn the access to the material world this gives birth to the Shi Shen.  Humans are meant to evolve from the innocence of a newborn baby, to the intelligence of youth, and on to the wisdom of the peak power of the Shi Shen.  At the same time Shi Shen is evolving, Yuan Shen starts from a birth of spooky capabilities and evolves towards numbness or unawareness of its true ability in most people.  Yuan Shen and Shi Shen are like master and servant living in the same room with their position and power changing all the time.  The wise man learns to be a dummy and the intelligent man fights for an empty statue of “self.”

 

Sometimes Shi Shen says things that may conflict with the Yuan Shen.  That is, the mind conflicts with the original spirit.  The Yuan Shen however, never gives up on the pursuit for purity.  The original spirit is kindness, which we never give up.  However; the Shi Shen sometimes contradicts this original spirit.  The Shi Shen may not allow the Yuan Shen to speak or act freely.  We must learn to live and let live!  Live and let live is equal to unconditional love.  Once you are able to love unconditionally then you will break out of the cycle of living in the expectations of others.  Learn to forgive yourself of being a victim.  Only then can you overpower your pains and aches.  Stupid people look for perfection in themselves, others and the world.  Life is not perfect!  If you always try to defend yourself for being a victim, then you are already a victim again.  There is no need to defend yourself!  Give up the will or desire to “win.”   Give up the fear of death.  There is no need for offense or defense.  Life is merely a puzzle.  Welcome your opportunity to solve this puzzle.  Always look for the other side, the dialectic side of "me".  If you can know one side of “me” then you can know other side of "me".  Strive to understand the opposite of what you are feeling.  However, always be consistent to what you believe.  Walk The Talk!  What you believe can change but until then, walk the talk for what you believe today! Do not blame and become a victim.

I just want to bow to you for such a powerful articulation

[Bindi]

On 07/05/2018 at 12:26 AM, steve said:

 

I'll add that there are also traditions which have concluded that mind issues can never be resolved by mind, as it is mind that is the issue in the first place. You can't wash blood away with blood. Even Western psychotherapists are beginning to see this (eg ACT). While we certainly can engage the mind to analyze, judge, and understand its machinations, there are also other ways to resolve issues of the mind. 

 

I have come to the conclusion that mind can be used to help resolve emotional issues (ie. issues stored in the gut and heart), but not mind issues. When emotional issues are sufficiently resolved, the resulting energy is capable of resolving mental issues with no further attention from ourselves. 

 

 

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I have come to the conclusion that mind can be used to help resolve emotional issues (ie. issues stored in the gut and heart), but not mind issues. When emotional issues are sufficiently resolved, the resulting energy is capable of resolving mental issues with no further attention from ourselves. 

 

 

 

How is an emotional issue different from a mind issue?

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

How is an emotional issue different from a mind issue?

 

Good question   Taken together the (emotional + mind) issue I see as a 'complex': 

 

Quote

Jung described a "complex" as a 'node' in the unconscious; it may be imagined as a knot of unconscious feelings and beliefs, detectable indirectly, through behavior that is puzzling or hard to account for.

 

...He believed it was perfectly normal to have complexes because everyone has emotional experiences that affect the psyche.

 

In this perspective emotions affect the mind, and the result is a multitude of knots of (feelings+beliefs). How to untangle the knots is the puzzle, and the solution that has worked for me is to first attend to the emotions in the gut and the heart by using the minds logic and ability to analyse. 

 

But I am finding this usefulness of the mind breaks down for me as I now start to attend to the dysfunctional patterns of thought in my head/mind, and the solution that has been presented to me is to not engage the mind in clearing these patterns but to allow 'energy' to do it with no further input from myself. 

 

This is my solution to complete this process, to completely break down all complexes and conditioning, that doesn't accept it is an endless and unfinishable task. 

 

  

[Fa Xin]

56 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Good question   Taken together the (emotional + mind) issue I see as a 'complex': 

 

 

In this perspective emotions affect the mind, and the result is a multitude of knots of (feelings+beliefs). How to untangle the knots is the puzzle, and the solution that has worked for me is to first attend to the emotions in the gut and the heart by using the minds logic and ability to analyse. 

 

But I am finding this usefulness of the mind breaks down for me as I now start to attend to the dysfunctional patterns of thought in my head/mind, and the solution that has been presented to me is to not engage the mind in clearing these patterns but to allow 'energy' to do it with no further input from myself. 

 

This is my solution to complete this process, to completely break down all complexes and conditioning, that doesn't accept it is an endless and unfinishable task. 

 

  

Using the mind to untangle the heart knots, and the heart to untangle the mind knots 😊 Sounds like a good balance to me 

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Good question   Taken together the (emotional + mind) issue I see as a 'complex': 

 

 

In this perspective emotions affect the mind, and the result is a multitude of knots of (feelings+beliefs). How to untangle the knots is the puzzle, and the solution that has worked for me is to first attend to the emotions in the gut and the heart by using the minds logic and ability to analyse. 

 

But I am finding this usefulness of the mind breaks down for me as I now start to attend to the dysfunctional patterns of thought in my head/mind, and the solution that has been presented to me is to not engage the mind in clearing these patterns but to allow 'energy' to do it with no further input from myself. 

 

This is my solution to complete this process, to completely break down all complexes and conditioning, that doesn't accept it is an endless and unfinishable task. 

  

 

I still don’t quite understand the difference. As an example, is the emotion of anger not simply just a mental process of getting angry? Are you separating them into conscious and subconconscious mental processes, and calling the subconscious emotions (because people are not consciously aware of the mental process of getting angry)?

 

Thanks.

[KuroShiro]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

How is an emotional issue different from a mind issue?

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I still don’t quite understand the difference. As an example, is the emotion of anger not simply just a mental process of getting angry? Are you separating them into conscious and subconconscious mental processes, and calling the subconscious emotions (because people are not consciously aware of the mental process of getting angry)?

 

This is complex but fascinating stuff

You have to study it in the context of Classical Chinese Medicine and theory of Wu Xing - 5 Elements/Phases/Movements. Western Medicine only looks at the mind (this is changing) but it's more complicated than that.

 

Anger is not just a mental process of getting angry. It's the emotion related to the Wood Element.

There are 12 Organs in our body and they dwell in the 12 Main Meridians. The Liver and Gallbladder are the Wood Organs.

 

If you go to a Five Element Acupuncturist he'll check for signs that might show disharmony and unbalance in the 12 Organs in order to make a diagnosis (please note the patients symptoms have no importance here). He might check for your emotion of anger to see if it's balanced.

 

Even if it's only present in one Organ, that disharmony and unbalance affects the cycle of the Elements and can eventually cause damage to the other Organs as well (they're all connected).

 

Having made the diagnosis the Dr. will then have to choose at what level to place the treatment: Body, Mind or Spirit.

 

(Please forgive the oversimplification as I'm no Dr.)

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

This is complex but fascinating stuff

You have to study it in the context of Classical Chinese Medicine and theory of Wu Xing - 5 Elements/Phases/Movements. Western Medicine only looks at the mind (this is changing) but it's more complicated than that.

 

Anger is not just a mental process of getting angry. It's the emotion related to the Wood Element.

There are 12 Organs in our body and they dwell in the 12 Main Meridians. The Liver and Gallbladder are the Wood Organs.

 

If you go to a Five Element Acupuncturist he'll check for signs that might show disharmony and unbalance in the 12 Organs in order to make a diagnosis (please note the patients symptoms have no importance here). He might check for your emotion of anger to see if it's balanced.

 

Even if it's only present in one Organ, that disharmony and unbalance affects the cycle of the Elements and can eventually cause damage to the other Organs as well (they're all connected).

 

Having made the diagnosis the Dr. will then have to choose at what level to place the treatment: Body, Mind or Spirit.

 

(Please forgive the oversimplification as I'm no Dr.)

 

Is not anger simply an autopilot response to some past memory or projected fear? Like if I get angry because someone tried to overcharge me for something at a store, is that not a "mental process" or mental response? The imbalance actually in the mind, even though aspects of it affect and spill over into the physical body?

[KuroShiro]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Is not anger simply an autopilot response to some past memory or projected fear? Like if I get angry because someone tried to overcharge me for something at a store, is that not a "mental process" or mental response? The imbalance actually in the mind, even though aspects of it affect and spill over into the physical body?

 

No, the imbalance is in the Organ(s), the mind might be affected because of this.

 

What if the patient doesn't get angry because someone tried to overcharge him (a normal reaction to have)? When he doesn't seem to express (even suppressing it) Anger in a healthy and balanced way?

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

No, the imbalance is in the Organ(s), the mind might be affected because of this.

 

What if the patient doesn't get angry because someone tried to overcharge him (a normal reaction to have)? When he doesn't seem to express (even suppressing it) Anger in a healthy and balanced way?

 

Then he did not have any subconscious mind activity around it.  So your view is that the body causes emotions, and if one had something like a heart imbalance it would cause fears and emotions around love?  Not that it was simply an mental anxiety around love, that could then begin to affect the body?

[Bindi]

On 14/05/2018 at 6:42 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

The Yuan Shen is original spirit; it does not recognize time or place.  The Shi Shen is intelligent spirit.  At the beginning of human life there is no existence of a Shi Shen or intelligent self.  When humans learn the access to the material world this gives birth to the Shi Shen.  Humans are meant to evolve from the innocence of a newborn baby, to the intelligence of youth, and on to the wisdom of the peak power of the Shi Shen.  At the same time Shi Shen is evolving, Yuan Shen starts from a birth of spooky capabilities and evolves towards numbness or unawareness of its true ability in most people.  Yuan Shen and Shi Shen are like master and servant living in the same room with their position and power changing all the time.  The wise man learns to be a dummy and the intelligent man fights for an empty statue of “self.”

 

Sometimes Shi Shen says things that may conflict with the Yuan Shen.  That is, the mind conflicts with the original spirit.  The Yuan Shen however, never gives up on the pursuit for purity.  The original spirit is kindness, which we never give up.  However; the Shi Shen sometimes contradicts this original spirit.  The Shi Shen may not allow the Yuan Shen to speak or act freely.  We must learn to live and let live!  Live and let live is equal to unconditional love.  Once you are able to love unconditionally then you will break out of the cycle of living in the expectations of others.  Learn to forgive yourself of being a victim.  Only then can you overpower your pains and aches.  Stupid people look for perfection in themselves, others and the world.  Life is not perfect!  If you always try to defend yourself for being a victim, then you are already a victim again.  There is no need to defend yourself!  Give up the will or desire to “win.”   Give up the fear of death.  There is no need for offense or defense.  Life is merely a puzzle.  Welcome your opportunity to solve this puzzle.  Always look for the other side, the dialectic side of "me".  If you can know one side of “me” then you can know other side of "me".  Strive to understand the opposite of what you are feeling.  However, always be consistent to what you believe.  Walk The Talk!  What you believe can change but until then, walk the talk for what you believe today! Do not blame and become a victim.

 

Is this your blog? 

 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Then he did not have any subconscious mind activity around it.  So your view is that the body causes emotions, and if one had something like a heart imbalance it would cause fears and emotions around love?  Not that it was simply an mental anxiety around love, that could then begin to affect the body?

 

I'm not sure specifically where emotions are created, and I very much appreciate KuroShiro's contribution to answer your question from a Chinese medicine POV, but I am more certain that unexpressed emotions clog up the two lower dantians. I believe it is thought patterns only that clog up the upper dantian. 

[KuroShiro]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Then he did not have any subconscious mind activity around it.  So your view is that the body causes emotions, and if one had something like a heart imbalance it would cause fears and emotions around love?  Not that it was simply an mental anxiety around love, that could then begin to affect the body?

 

This is not my view.

These are the teachings of Classical Chinese Medicine but like I've said I'm no Dr. so no authority on this subject.

 

Don't take my word for it as it might be wrong. Best to find a Dr. of CCM or read books. Did I already say this is complex but fascinating stuff?

 

 

The Body, Mind, Spirit can't be considered independently, they are Three that form One. I'm not saying that the body causes emotions, they are the result of our interaction with the world and this is done through the senses.

 

What I'm saying is that the imbalance of the emotion is rooted in the Organ. The emotion affects one's qi and is not just a mental process. When I say Organ I'm not referring to the physical organ, this is explained in Nei Jing Su Wen.

 

An imbalance in the emotion anger is detrimental to the Wood Element - this is addressed by acupuncture.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by KuroShiro

[danteyun]

In my opinion, the emotion is affected by various factors, the most important one is the EXPECTATION/DESIRE. For instance, if the results are not what you want to be, then the emotion will be disappointed. on the other hand, the Qi balance of body is also very important for us, if the QI is not smooth(or blocked in somewhere), the emotion will also be changed by it. so balance is the important thing, and how to balance it is the "KongFu" of mind-heart.

About the WUXING(五行) of body,  which is 木火土金水(Mu Huo Tu Jin Shui), is related to our five organ(and the five-organs are not exactly like phisical five-organs), very complicated to understand by our phisical knowledge. (there are FiveZangShen(五脏神) in there), need the balance between them. and there are relationship between emotion and five-organ. which is "怒伤肝, 喜伤心, 忧伤肺, 思伤脾, 恐伤肾" from Huang Di Nei Jing"黄帝内经" .

About the Chinese Medicine, the original medicine is the Taoist-Medicine(道医), and the doctor has the special power on it, such as penetrative visual ability(透视), or QiGong(气功) etc

For your reference

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, danteyun said:

In my opinion, the emotion is affected by various factors, the most important one is the EXPECTATION/DESIRE. For instance, if the results are not what you want to be, then the emotion will be disappointed.

 

Is this perspective the Buddhist influence on Daoism? The excerpt below seems to capture the spirit of this POV -

 

[If you are] defiled by the smallest [concern about] annihilation or permanence,

[then you] still lack affinity with all the Buddhas.

[Due to their] overturned thinking ordinary people cling in delusion;

[thus they] suffer from the defiling habits of the emotions and affections.

Due simply to desires, the proliferation of emotions is excessive,

[causing] the unceasing [re]birth of embryos, and eggs produced [in] dampness.

[To] study the Tao, [you] must cause [yourself to be] fierce;

A mind without emotions is as hard as iron.

Excerpt from A Song on Meditative Concentration and Pointing out Illusion

 

Quote

 

on the other hand, the Qi balance of body is also very important for us, if the QI is not smooth(or blocked in somewhere), the emotion will also be changed by it. so balance is the important thing, and how to balance it is the "KongFu" of mind-heart.

 

This has been the level I have been interested in. The KongFu of the mind-heart sounds good, I would like to know more about what you mean by this.  

 

Quote

About the WUXING(五行) of body,  which is 木火土金水(Mu Huo Tu Jin Shui), is related to our five organ(and the five-organs are not exactly like phisical five-organs), very complicated to understand by our phisical knowledge. (there are FiveZangShen(五脏神) in there), need the balance between them. and there are relationship between emotion and five-organ. which is "怒伤肝, 喜伤心, 忧伤肺, 思伤脾, 恐伤肾" from Huang Di Nei Jing"黄帝内经" .

About the Chinese Medicine, the original medicine is the Taoist-Medicine(道医), and the doctor has the special power on it, such as penetrative visual ability(透视), or QiGong(气功) etc

For your reference

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Bindi