Mair 13:8

[Marblehead]

Duke Huan was reading in the upper part of his hall and Wheelwright Flat was hewing a wheel in the lower part.  Setting aside his hammer and chisel, the wheelwright went to the upper part of the hall and inquired of Duke Huan, saying, "I venture to ask what words Your Highness is reading?"

"The words of the sages," said the duke.

"Are the sages still alive?"

"They're already dead;" said the duke.

"Then what my lord is reading are merely the dregs of the ancients."

"How can you, a wheelwright, comment upon what I am reading?" asked Duke Huan.  "If you can explain yourself, all right.  If you cannot explain yourself, you shall die."

"I look at it from my own occupation," said Wheelwright Flat.  "If the spokes are loose, they'll fit sweet as a whistle but the wheel won't be solid.  If they're too tight, you won't be able to insert them no matter how hard you try.  To make them neither too loose nor too tight is something you sense in your hand and feel in your heart.  There's a knack to it that can't be put in words.  I haven't been able to teach it to my son, and my son hasn't been able to learn it from me.  That's why I'm still hewing wheels after seventy years.  When they died, the ancients took with them what they couldn't transmit.  So what you are reading are the dregs of the ancients?"

 

[Taoist Texts]

The commercial neidan teachers naively use this parable   to prove that learning from books is impossible, hence learning from a live teachers is paramount.

 

Of course the parable proves the exact opposite: learning from a live teacher is impossible, even for a son of his.

 

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I haven't been able to teach it to my son, and my son hasn't been able to learn it from me. 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

The commercial neidan teachers naively use this parable   to prove that learning from books is impossible, hence learning from a live teachers is paramount.

 

Of course the parable proves the exact opposite: learning from a live teacher is impossible, even for a son of his.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I think this speaks well to a concept I often present:  We each have our own set of capabilities and capacities.

 

[Stosh]

The Duke comments that your knowledge- person will die if it-you cannot be communicated,

the wright explains himself , and so presumably , he would live on , both in his job, and his ideas. 

But the duke feels the sages are dead ,

and therefore ,do not live on, ,( by effectively communicating in the written words). 

So the words Are dregs when read by the Duke.  

The son also, doesn't intuitively comprehend, he had to get in the shop or world , and DO the work. 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Stosh

[Stosh]

This too shall spin.. so,, the Duke and the son , have indeed absorbed the dregs .. richest most useless leftovers. So they don't want to bust a hump fitting spokes , the wright, knows his son has gotten things right -being useless,  but he never got the hang of it , though he recognizes that the wisdom is there to be read.

The duke is not threatening the wright , but explaining that in their words the sages they have lived on , in himself and the wrights son.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

Was Chuang tse a sage? If so then...

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Was Chuang tse a sage? If so then...

Yes, I consider him to have been a Sage.  A man of great wisdom.  He is gone but his words linger on.  To die but be remembered - that's a long life.

 

[Lost in Translation]

12 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Was Chuang tse a sage? If so then...

Yes, I consider him to have been a Sage.  A man of great wisdom.  He is gone but his words linger on.  To die but be remembered - that's a long life.

 

I'm looking at Mair's Tao Te Ching book (1) and in that he defines Sage as follows:

 

Quote

This term, which occurs over thirty times in the text, represents the ideal Taoist ruler. There are a whole series of interesting parallels between Chinese sheng (Old Chinese syang, "sage") and English "sage." The first and most obvious is the similarity of their sounds. Still more striking is the fact that both of them are related to perceptiveness. The character used to write sheng (syang) shows this clearly by having an ear as its semantic classifier.

 

Interesting stuff.

 

1. Tao Te Ching, The Classic Book of Integrity and the Way. Lao Tzu. Translation and commentary by Victor H. Mair. p. 137

Edited May 17, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[wandelaar]

Yes - I also consider Chuang tse a sage. But what does he (or one of his followers?) write:

 

Quote

"The words of the sages," said the duke.

"Are the sages still alive?"

"They're already dead;" said the duke.

"Then what my lord is reading are merely the dregs of the ancients."

"How can you, a wheelwright, comment upon what I am reading?" asked Duke Huan.  "If you can explain yourself, all right.  If you cannot explain yourself, you shall die."

"I look at it from my own occupation," said Wheelwright Flat.  "If the spokes are loose, they'll fit sweet as a whistle but the wheel won't be solid.  If they're too tight, you won't be able to insert them no matter how hard you try.  To make them neither too loose nor too tight is something you sense in your hand and feel in your heart.  There's a knack to it that can't be put in words.  I haven't been able to teach it to my son, and my son hasn't been able to learn it from me.  That's why I'm still hewing wheels after seventy years.  When they died, the ancients took with them what they couldn't transmit.  So what you are reading are the dregs of the ancients?"

 

So his own work would also be "the dregs of the ancients" ?

Edited May 17, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Yes - I also consider Chuang tse a sage. But what does he (or one of his followers?) write:

 

 

So his own work would also be "the dregs of the ancients" ?

Yep.  We don't have the person any more in order to talk with and question him.  All we have is the dandruff from his scalp.

 

[wandelaar]

So the "the dregs of the ancients" ain't so bad after all.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

So the "the dregs of the ancients" ain't so bad after all.

I don't think so.  We can still learn from what was written down by and about them.

 

[Lost in Translation]

Future generations will have the dregs of Tailor Swift. Lucky us, we get the swill.

 

(No offense against Tailor Swift. Substitute your preferred pop star)