Burning off karma

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, cold said:

 

Care to elaborate?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_positions

[3bob]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

There are three types of Karma

 

1. Sanchita (accrued) Karma - This is the bank account of Karmic effects 
2. Prarabdha (activated) Karma - This is what has already been set into motion in this lifetime
3. Agami or Kriyamaan Karma - This is stuff we will accrue with more action in future

Of the three, 1 and 3 can be negated by a Master or other Beings and/or by the individual through acquisition of knowledge. It is usually a combination of both. The "Master" or "Other Beings" are none other than the Self presenting itself and it's grace to the seeker (individual). 

2 is not possible to negate, even after Self-realization. It is likened to an arrow that has been fired and will stop when it runs out of momentum. The Self-realized person will however not suffer any longer due to this Karma as the karma is in the domain of the body-mind. The Self is eternally free.

 

yes, ultimately "the Master or other beings are none other than the Self" itself....but that is pretty abstract for most us most of the time even though it is not really abstract.  Anyway advanced souls are making a personal choice and to whatever degree sacrifice to help and those who are helped most likely do not know the personal price that was paid...(until later) which brings up the dubious term of "impersonal enlightenment" which really has personal aspects. 

[ChiForce]

Let's not forget......most people don't realize they are living a life perpetuating the karmic force....because they are trying to live out a social expectation...or certain unrealistic ideals.  Something must be stirred up in their minds to begin the question their own behaviors.  Remember that we are talking about individuals living out a particular karmic trace originated from and by the the world and society they are living in.  This individual's experience is more or less very collective.  Is just that everyone is living by the same social paradigm and does not even bother to question their own basic assumption of what they are doing daily.  

 

When this individual begins to realize something is wrong, he or she is going against a particular trend or norm in his or her social surrounding.  This individual needs to extract himself or herself away from it all and to go through an inner journey with their own mind.  Or a "retreat."  It takes a long time to reach to this seclusion of mind...that is...the karma has finally about to exhaust itself and you are beginning to question the nature of your own mental anguish and suffering.  You begin to reflect on your life and everything else that has happened.  In my case, I didn't get to that point until I was 17.  For some people, it happens much, much later...because they are too attached to whatever is about to cause their own suffering.  And things are going their ways so they thought.  

 

When do enlightened beings begin to assist you???  Hmmm.....  For most, your cumulative karma would begin to ripen just as your current life karma is about to exhaust itself.  Your future karma can be influenced too by enlightened beings as well....at least..easier now since you are no longer being chained by your current life karma.  I think...:)  Within the Buddhist cosmology, your future karma isn't set in stone but you are given the choice to choose to act.            

Edited February 14, 2018 by ChiForce

[s1va]

Even when a person's karma is burnt by other (assuming it is entirely possible), there still seems to be some individual factor that determines why certain people stand to benefit with such things.  If we look at healings and miracles performed by Jesus or Krishna or some other master, in each instance it affected only certain people or only some reaped the benefit directly (to a great extent) by such actions.  Even if we were to assume that everyone that came up to and asked help from these masters got some of their karma burned.   The question why only certain few got to meet them in the first place, still remains.  Even the greatest prophets or masters from the past did not heal everyone or did not burn the karma of everyone that they came across in their lives.  May be, they helped everyone to certain extent.  In all cases, some individuals or certain persons with some propensities seem to have benefited more than the others.

 

Sometimes we say, the person was ripe or ready to receive the blessings or divine help.  Which still clearly shows, the individual person has to be ready in some ways to go through such transformation or receive the blessing.  The evolution of an individual and where he is, seem to matter a great extent in such things, to determine whether someone receives it, or to which degree it transforms them.  Personally to me, this is a more interesting question than if someone's karma can be burned.  As Buddha pointed out, ultimately perhaps it all goes back to the individual's effort in one way or other, even in receiving divine help to burn karmas, and to what extent one stands to benefit.

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, s1va said:

Even when a person's karma is burnt by other (assuming it is entirely possible), there still seems to be some individual factor that determines why certain people stand to benefit with such things.  If we look at healings and miracles performed by Jesus or Krishna or some other master, in each instance it affected only certain people or only some reaped the benefit directly (to a great extent) by such actions.  Even if we were to assume that everyone that came up to and asked help from these masters got some of their karma burned.   The question why only certain few got to meet them in the first place, still remains.  Even the greatest prophets or masters from the past did not heal everyone or did not burn the karma of everyone that they came across in their lives.  May be, they helped everyone to certain extent.  In all cases, some individuals or certain persons with some propensities seem to have benefited more than the others.

 

Sometimes we say, the person was ripe or ready to receive the blessings or divine help.  Which still clearly shows, the individual person has to be ready in some ways to go through such transformation or receive the blessing.  The evolution of an individual and where he is, seem to matter a great extent in such things, to determine whether someone receives it, or to which degree it transforms them.  Personally to me, this is a more interesting question than if someone's karma can be burned.  As Buddha pointed out, ultimately perhaps it all goes back to the individual's effort in one way or other, even in receiving divine help to burn karmas, and to what extent one stands to benefit.

 

Yes, to me it is very much like the buddhist concept of transferring merit.  Nothing is given (or lost in the transfer), it is more about the person resonating (or accepting or releasing) then something like healing another person.

[C T]

Jeff, you stated above that what Siva said is very much like the Buddhist concept of transferring merit - Im interested to know what is your understanding on that concept as it relates to practice, specifically in Vajrayana, and also in a generic sense? 

 

Thanks. 

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

I just wanted to discuss burning off 'karma' and so on without hijacking the other thread.

 

i think there's two levels to this.  One is the adventitious material that collects to the subtle body in the same way as the physical body gets dirty.  The Egyptians had a word for this which was 'dw'.  It could be understood much in the same way as dust accumulates on your TV set because of the static electricity which the electronics generate.  So the dust is there because of the TV set but not generated by it.

 

This 'dw' was purified in two ways - first by water libations:

 

 

- as you can see this is the idea of energy washing down from the crown (which is common to purification in many systems).

 

The second is by burning out the 'dw' - which is the Eye of Horus as a flame burning out the impurities - in certain Egyptian lineages this was symbolised by the hypocephalus which was an inscribed paper disk placed behind the head:

 

 

- incidentally one of these disks was mis-translated by Joseph Smith as an Abrahamic text when he set up Mormonism

 

So - purification by water and then fire (which makes one think of Baptism).

 

Now the Buddha said 'karma is intent' - which is significant because karma actually means literally 'action'.  So apart from the 'dirt' which needs to be cleaned out there is also intent.  the question is then - can another being (human or otherwise) redirect a person's intent and thus change their karma (in the sense of their life direction). ???????

 

 

 

Wouldn't our intent and life direction be directed by any and all authority figures since the day we're born? Or am I misunderstanding intent? 

[Apech]

44 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Wouldn't our intent and life direction be directed by any and all authority figures since the day we're born? Or am I misunderstanding intent? 

 

 

influenced by them I would say - but it is still our intent.

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, C T said:

Jeff, you stated above that what Siva said is very much like the Buddhist concept of transferring merit - Im interested to know what is your understanding on that concept as it relates to practice, specifically in Vajrayana, and also in a generic sense? 

 

Thanks. 

 

My specific understanding on the Buddhist practice of transferring karma is completely limited to the information that Apech provided. Also, since I am not a Vajrayana practioner i am not qualified to say if it fits or not (that is why I asked you the questions regarding it in the other thread). But, in a generic sense and practical application, I am very familiar with how it works, and also how it is sort of like a subset of what I called earlier with the accelerated karma clearing by helping process.

 

Rather than thinking of it as transferring merit, I think it is easier to understand with Apech’s Egyptian clearing dirt/dust concept. Sort of like rather than thinking of it as accumulating merit and building up, it is more like you already have enough merit (Buddha potential), but that merit is obscured by all of the karmic dirt. So the process is really more about clearing the dirt away to find what is underneath. 

 

So in that context, when merit is transferred, it is not given away, but more shared (like the link stated). One Connects to the other person, and since they have the clarity (or merit) around that karma issue, they create more space for the other person around that issue allowing them to more easily clear it. Which fits with the descriptions around resonating or shared joy on the specific merit.

 

A master would have a huge clear space (or merit), so the transfer could cover a much broader “merit range”. Additionally, if the master knows how to directly share presence, then it is like a power washing (in the local space) of dirt. But, all of this is dependent on the person releasing the dirt(or accepting the merit), and is not something that is pushed or forced. Since the karma itself is subconscious, the person feels the clearing as new and open space and hence tends to think of it as expansion or  merit because they now have access to things that had be previously obscured/dirty.

[Jetsun]

One way to look at Karma is that it is consciousness stuck in separation, stuck in time and story. As our fundamental awareness exists outside of time and separation then liberation is about bringing that fundamental nature into those pockets of confusion, or rather bringing that forth from inside of it, so the pockets of karma wake up to their real nature. Therefore karma is ultimately unreal in this regard and any pocket of karma can be woken up and dissolved this way.

 

Just being with a being who is established in their ultimate nature to some extent can create the resonance in you to bring forth that nature within you without either of you doing anything. Going to Satsangs, going on retreats etc all can have a benefit of waking up karma in this way just by providing the pause and space for it to happen. 

[dwai]

23 hours ago, s1va said:

There was a group of practitioners in ancient India called Purva Mimamsakas.  They believed only in the early portion of Vedas.  Per their philosophy and belief, everything happens by karma.  Even the divine or 'Isvara' (God) cannot interfere in a person's karma.  Therefore there is no point in praying for divine help or intervention.  By karmas each person can find their own way and liberation in the end.  This is not the mainstream belief.  Shankara engages in debates with them and convinces (win) them, stating Iswara/Divine can intercede and help burn karmas.  The debate that occurred for several days is documented.  If divine can intercede and burn karmas for others, then it can do it by various means, including through other humans or masters.

 

When we come to Buddhism, there is no such concept of one 'Iswara' / divine who can intervene.  In fact, this was one of the major points of contention between Sankara and Buddhists.  So, from a Buddhist standpoint, may be, the karmas can't be burned by others.  I am not really sure, because there is a lot of overlap in the beliefs between the two traditions, when it comes to karmas.  

 

It is generally accepted in Hindu belief, that divine or a master can intervene with the karmas of others in various ways.  Let's not confuse this with responsibility or putting effort from the individual stand point.  Ultimately, every one is responsible for their karma and also for their liberation.  But, this does not mean, that the divine or 'Isvara' cannot intervene and help or burn some karma for those caught up in Samsara.  The divine can and does achieve this in so many ways, including by acting through another human. 

 

When it comes to Hindu Tantra also -- both right and left handed -- it is generally accepted that a qualified master can take or burn the karmas of others. 

 

The Purva Mimasakas were focused on Rta or cosmic Order/harmony. All the rituals etc were with focus on Rta (the name Rita comes from that).