What is Non-duality?

[3bob]

one could say that besides the chick working on cracking its shell from the inside there is also that which is working on the shell from the outside...and such an inside and outside are only there until they are not there.

Edited December 4, 2017 by 3bob

[steve]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

So effort, doing and practices are needed until they are not needed.

 

 

Quoted for emphasis

[oak]

Many times I ask myself if I could have any sanity in the crazy world we live in without practices. I'm pretty sure that I would fall into total dispair and self destruction and maybe that is the rule for many of us. So,practices may not be the ultimate answer but they sure save lives.

[steve]

3 hours ago, oak said:

Many times I ask myself if I could have any sanity in the crazy world we live in without practices. I'm pretty sure that I would fall into total dispair and self destruction and maybe that is the rule for many of us. So,practices may not be the ultimate answer but they sure save lives.

 

It's made a huge difference in my life.

[silent thunder]

13 hours ago, Gunther said:

No, they would have a break down not a break through.

Many examples. The Buddha himself. Many others, meditated, practiced, cultivated, untill they exhausted the mind and let go

pure, complete exhaustion from incessant seeking was my release

 

10 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi steve,

 

Non-doing = wuwei?

 

- LimA

in line with my experience with the freedom, liberation and release of exhaustion

I now translate wuwei not as 'non doing' but 'non forcing'.

 

as dew condenses and evaporates... without effort, everything in nature is accomplished.

 

 

[Limahong]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

pure, complete exhaustion from incessant seeking was my release

 

Hi Creighton,

 

I seek, seek and seek.

I got completely bleak.

To hell with everything.

Then there was a ring.

 

8 hours ago, silent thunder said:

in line with my experience with the freedom, liberation and release of exhaustion

I now translate wuwei not as 'non doing' but 'non forcing'.

 

An apple tree is not forced to give apples - just say no or yes?

It just gives when apples are in season - and there is no pest.

 

8 hours ago, silent thunder said:

as dew condenses and evaporates... without effort, everything in nature is accomplished.

 

As vapor forms and here comes the rain,

I'm not forced to do things with my brain.

 

- Anand 

[steve]

10 hours ago, silent thunder said:

pure, complete exhaustion from incessant seeking was my release

 

in line with my experience with the freedom, liberation and release of exhaustion

I now translate wuwei not as 'non doing' but 'non forcing'.

 

as dew condenses and evaporates... without effort, everything in nature is accomplished.

 

Lately I find myself using the term 'non interference' for wu wei.

 

[dawei]

22 hours ago, steve said:

 

Lately I find myself using the term 'non interference' for wu wei.

 

 

Yes... I have historically used that idea for wu wei...  to mean:

1. Don't get in the way to interfere... then

2. Get out of the way of interfering

 

But the subject<>object aspect then made me realize the separation.

 

When there is both/and (a nod to Rene)... just let it flow and go its Ways... is wu wei.

 

funny that wei sounds like 'way'

 

 

[steve]

Yes, I can see how that might turn you off. From a practice point of view, rather than inhabiting an I that might interfere there is a letting go of the I and resting in that space/presence. 

[Limahong]

On 12/5/2017 at 8:56 PM, steve said:

Lately I find myself using the term 'non interference' for wu wei.

 

Hi steve,

 

I am comfortable with the association - 'non interference' for wu wei.

 

22 hours ago, dawei said:

When there is both/and... just let it flow and go its Ways... is wu wei.

 

Hi dawei,

 

To me when 'and' is added to 'both', the two-worded/related 'dependents' - delete, dissolve and disappear into The Void. There is nothing in The Void. No need to do anything... I rest with wuwei.

 

- LimA

[Jonesboy]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi steve,

 

I am comfortable with the association - 'non interference' for wu wei.

 

 

Hi dawei,

 

To me when 'and' is added to 'both', the two-worded/related 'dependents' - delete, dissolve and disappear into The Void. There is nothing in The Void. No need to do anything... I rest with wuwei.

 

- LimA

 

Void is only half of the equation.

 

When one realizes void=form then they rest in wuwei if you ask me.

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

I read that and similar instructions in so many english dzogchen books and in english dzogchen web articles that I assume that pretty much every western outdoor student is using that technique 24/7.

With what result, obviously...?

Seemingly, "resting in presence/space" is about one babystep further from shamata towards the Natural State.

 

 

I think there is much confusion about what resting in presence/space really is or means. I think this an issue for both eastern and western students, but also across traditions.

[Jonesboy]

19 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

I read that and similar instructions in many english dzogchen books and in english dzogchen web articles that I assume that pretty much every western outdoor student is using that technique 24/7.

With what result, obviously...?

Seemingly, "resting in presence/space" is about one babystep further from shamata towards the Natural State.

 

 

If, instead, while observing my state I notice thoughts,
such as for example: "Here, now I am in the calm state" or
"Here, now a thoughts is arising", there is a way in which I
can be present 'in' the thought itself without engaging the
mechanisms of judgment. If I had to say or explain what
is happening in that moment, on the one hand it is utterly
impossible for me to find the words, but on the other hand
I retain a precise memory of it.

This presence of awareness is very important, it must not
be lacking, otherwise the practice of Shine ends up sinking
into a sleepy state.

2. A natural state of total spontaneity.

This is what is called rigpa, the recognition of pure
presence. Presence can be recognized above all in the
condition where there are thoughts, that is, in the
condition of 'movement'.

When during practice there are more thoughts (that is,
'more fish are leaping') there is also the opportunity to
recognize presence as the manifestation of wisdom, and, at
the same time, together with the movement of thoughts one
can also recognize the presence of the state of calm, nepa.
You must understand that fundamentally all three states
are at the same level: the state of calm, nepa, is movement,
the state of movement itself, gyuwa, is calm, and rigpa is
pure recognition of your own state, that is present in both.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43943-rigpa/

 

I would consider this definition to be dualistic.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Jonesboy

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Wells said:

 

I read that and similar simple instructions in so many english dzogchen books and in english dzogchen web articles that I assume that pretty much every western outdoor student ever has used and is using that technique 24/7.

With what result, obviously...?

Seemingly, "resting in presence/space" is about one babystep further from shamata towards the Natural State.

 

It seems like you would like to tell us what the "real deal" is. So why don't you?

 

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

27 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

Agreed.

 

Do you mind sharing why you think it is dualistic?

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Wells said:

 

"Abiding in space", "abiding in pure presence (rigpa)", "abiding in self-awareness" etc. are all mentally constructed and conceptualized meditations and therefore imperatively of dualistic nature.

 

Thank you,

 

I would disagree that such residing in the movement is a conceptualized meditation. At that point it is more a being.

 

To me it is dualistic because you and the flows, that movement is perceived as separate from you. You are resting in the movement, in the flow. You have not realized yet that you are that.

[Fa Xin]

16 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

"Abiding in space", "abiding in pure presence (rigpa)", "abiding in self-awareness" etc. are all mentally constructed and conceptualized meditations and therefore imperatively of dualistic nature.

I feel like any attempt to describe it could be considered dualistic. Does this mean we just sit around quietly because “the Dao that can be named...” etc.  It’s just an attempt to point... no need to split hairs imo. 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I feel like any attempt to describe it could be considered dualistic. Does this mean we just sit around quietly because “the Dao that can be named...” etc.  It’s just an attempt to point... no need to split hairs imo. 

+1 on not splitting hair. Also, abiding in pure presence is not a mental thing. It is most definitely a non-mental thing. The mind has to become still to abide in pure awareness/presence. 

 

That might beg the question "Who abides in Pure Awareness?".

The answer is "awareness abides in pure awareness".

Edited December 7, 2017 by dwai

[dwai]

46 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

Being able to recognize errors doesn't automatically imply to have the correct solution.

How can you say that you are right in recognizing the errors? Maybe you haven't approached this in the right way in the first place, and misunderstood what is being pointed to. 

 

Don't get me wrong, it is a very good thing to ask questions and doubt. But what you seem to be perceiving as intellectual/mental, is just a platform from where one can then dive into "direct apperception". 

 

What do you need to have any experience? Awareness. What is the difference between pure awareness and experience? There are things that one is aware of in experiences. Where do we experience? The mind. Remove the things and all that remains is pure awareness. That is the purpose of meditation.

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Wells said:

 

What does it mean in your opinion?

 

That too many mistake the natural state for a momentarily quiet mind.