What is Buddhism/the Buddha incorrect about?

[morning dew]

On 20/11/2017 at 10:44 PM, Phoenix3 said:

 Also, I do believe there is such thing as the self, while Buddhism believes it is an illusion.

 

Well, I'm just a bumbling amateur in these topics, but it seems to me the goal of creating the immortal fetus (or whatever it's called) through internal alchemy in some Taoist practices is probably in opposition to some Buddhist practices/systems that seek to dissolve into Nirvana on death? I don't know. Anyone have any idea?

Edited November 21, 2017 by morning dew

[Bud Jetsun]

What a Daoist doesn't like is inherently the same as what a Buddhist or any other being doesn't like, aspects of themselves interpreted through sensory phenomenon to be loved or feared the limit of the beings creativity and choice in mindfulness.  

 

The Dao remains equally indescribable for all manner of *ists, while equally remaining the cause of all experiential phenomenon with indifference to the beings choice in flavor of belief/thought/delusion.

 

Wisdom remains where the knowing isn't, the Dao remains that which you have not appreciated or all illusion of conflict existing in its perfect balance would already be recognized as mere flavoring choices in mechanisms for voluntary suffering as a function of incompassion. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bud Jetsun

[Wells]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Imo some branches have evolved into making the Buddha godlike, a mistake imo.

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Maybe - Buddhists try to awaken, and Daoists don't bother , since think they're dreaming either way.  

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi8oYasndLXAhVJ74MKHdlGCowQtwIILDAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DW3dz0HjIAKg&usg=AOvVaw0mFZmxE91CfS_Y-npVyrGt

Edited November 22, 2017 by Stosh

[steve]

13 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

Well, I'm just a bumbling amateur in these topics, but it seems to me the goal of creating the immortal fetus (or whatever it's called) through internal alchemy in some Taoist practices is probably in opposition to some Buddhist practices/systems that seek to dissolve into Nirvana on death? I don't know. Anyone have any idea?

 

The metaphor of the immortal fetus is very sophisticated and beautiful but subtle and elusive as is so much of Daoist symbolism. Just as we are not created by any external agency, the immortal fetus is not created, it is born. Internal alchemy opens pathways and fields in the body, removing obstacles to allow that birth. It is the birth of awareness of the truth and source, and the connection to and embodiment of immortality. It is a fetus because it starts in a fragile and tentative way and over time matures and blossoms into the Perfect Person, the Sage. Similarly, in higher Buddhist practices like tantra and Dzogchen, nothing is being created but rather obstacles are being cleared to allow the opening of the heart of compassion, a connection to that very truth and source. With proper care and feeding it can grow into a Bodhisatva or even a Buddha. Sure there are differences in terminology and application but once there is some degree of direct experience, the common ground becomes very clear. This is why earlier I urged focus on similarities rather than differences. Seeing the similarities helps us grow and develop a more balanced and comprehensive perspective. Emphasizing the differences is very limiting and creates obstacles rather than loosening them. 

 

PS - I'm also a bumbling amateur so take everything I say with a healthy sprinkling of salt

 

PSS - in the highest teachings of Tibetan Buddhism, dissolution into Nirvana is not the ultimate goal. These teachings help us to see that Nirvana and Samsara are not separate, they are different sides of the same coin, different manifestations of the same source recognized as such due to our delusion of duality, much like Yin and Yang are not separate but rather mutually interdependent. Samsara is the human experience of unsatisfactoriness and suffering and Nirvana is the human experience of its resolution into perfect contentment and ease. In Dzogchen practice and at the time of death, both Samsara and Nirvana are transcended. The "goal" is to recognize one's true face at the time of death, which is none other than that very source and nature of immortality that is touched by the birth of the immortal fetus. 

[allinone]

On ‎22‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 3:04 PM, steve said:

 

The metaphor of the immortal fetus is very sophisticated and beautiful but subtle and elusive as is so much of Daoist symbolism. Just as we are not created by any external agency, the immortal fetus is not created, it is born. Internal alchemy opens pathways and fields in the body, removing obstacles to allow that birth. It is the birth of awareness of the truth and source, and the connection to and embodiment of immortality. It is a fetus because it starts in a fragile and tentative way and over time matures and blossoms into the Perfect Person, the Sage. Similarly, in higher Buddhist practices like tantra and Dzogchen, nothing is being created but rather obstacles are being cleared to allow the opening of the heart of compassion, a connection to that very truth and source. With proper care and feeding it can grow into a Bodhisatva or even a Buddha. Sure there are differences in terminology and application but once there is some degree of direct experience, the common ground becomes very clear. This is why earlier I urged focus on similarities rather than differences. Seeing the similarities helps us grow and develop a more balanced and comprehensive perspective. Emphasizing the differences is very limiting and creates obstacles rather than loosening them. 

 

PS - I'm also a bumbling amateur so take everything I say with a healthy sprinkling of salt

 

PSS - in the highest teachings of Tibetan Buddhism, dissolution into Nirvana is not the ultimate goal. These teachings help us to see that Nirvana and Samsara are not separate, they are different sides of the same coin, different manifestations of the same source recognized as such due to our delusion of duality, much like Yin and Yang are not separate but rather mutually interdependent. Samsara is the human experience of unsatisfactoriness and suffering and Nirvana is the human experience of its resolution into perfect contentment and ease. In Dzogchen practice and at the time of death, both Samsara and Nirvana are transcended. The "goal" is to recognize one's true face at the time of death, which is none other than that very source and nature of immortality that is touched by the birth of the immortal fetus. 

 

nirvana and samsara is like no ice cream and ice cream. Both versions have craving, but since in nirvana there is no ice cream then craving can't arise.

So more practice to discover the third thing.

[allinone]

On ‎22‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 1:12 AM, morning dew said:

 

Well, I'm just a bumbling amateur in these topics, but it seems to me the goal of creating the immortal fetus (or whatever it's called) through internal alchemy in some Taoist practices is probably in opposition to some Buddhist practices/systems that seek to dissolve into Nirvana on death? I don't know. Anyone have any idea?

 

it boils down to that sentient beings doesn't exist they exist because of ignorance lack of seeing. You don't see that you are in nirvana or in hell etc, how your mind changes or body and where it appears. For a ignorant, the historical Buddha died to old age, had pains etc also see it liek i would see a typical human being.

---

In Sutra its said that he manifested this, old age and such to teach beings etc

Edited November 26, 2017 by allinone

[morning dew]

On 22/11/2017 at 1:04 PM, steve said:

 

The metaphor of the immortal fetus is very sophisticated and beautiful but subtle and elusive as is so much of Daoist symbolism. Just as we are not created by any external agency, the immortal fetus is not created, it is born. Internal alchemy opens pathways and fields in the body, removing obstacles to allow that birth. It is the birth of awareness of the truth and source, and the connection to and embodiment of immortality. It is a fetus because it starts in a fragile and tentative way and over time matures and blossoms into the Perfect Person, the Sage. Similarly, in higher Buddhist practices like tantra and Dzogchen, nothing is being created but rather obstacles are being cleared to allow the opening of the heart of compassion, a connection to that very truth and source. With proper care and feeding it can grow into a Bodhisatva or even a Buddha. Sure there are differences in terminology and application but once there is some degree of direct experience, the common ground becomes very clear. This is why earlier I urged focus on similarities rather than differences. Seeing the similarities helps us grow and develop a more balanced and comprehensive perspective. Emphasizing the differences is very limiting and creates obstacles rather than loosening them. 

 

PS - I'm also a bumbling amateur so take everything I say with a healthy sprinkling of salt

 

PSS - in the highest teachings of Tibetan Buddhism, dissolution into Nirvana is not the ultimate goal. These teachings help us to see that Nirvana and Samsara are not separate, they are different sides of the same coin, different manifestations of the same source recognized as such due to our delusion of duality, much like Yin and Yang are not separate but rather mutually interdependent. Samsara is the human experience of unsatisfactoriness and suffering and Nirvana is the human experience of its resolution into perfect contentment and ease. In Dzogchen practice and at the time of death, both Samsara and Nirvana are transcended. The "goal" is to recognize one's true face at the time of death, which is none other than that very source and nature of immortality that is touched by the birth of the immortal fetus. 

 

Thanks, Steve. That's fascinating.

[Mark Foote]

Phoenix3, I can tell you some things I disagree with Gautama about, and maybe I can talk a little about the differences between the two.

 

There is a sermon in one of the first four Nikayas where Gautama talks of how a woman will attempt to ensnare a man, even on her deathbed.  I think "ensnare" was the translation I saw--if not it was something similar.  So he was, at least at one point in time, a misogynist (nice twentieth-century word).  His cousin and attendant Ananda had to appeal three times before, by his silence, Gautama gave consent for an order of nuns.  The reasoning Gautama gave was that women are weaker, and the order would be constantly under attack like a person on a highway of thieves, so that by admitting women the order would only last 500 years instead of a thousand.  More evidence of his prejudice, IMO.  In general, Gautama's notion that his enlightenment extended to understanding the correct social order and morality seems flawed to me.

 

In another sermon Gautama listed six miracles, as a comprehensive list.  One of them was "stroking the sun and moon with the hand".  This compares with floating through the air, passing through solid earth, and the like.  I don't know about floating through the air and passing through solid materials, but I think we can say for sure that stroking the sun and moon with the hand can only be a kind of lucid dreaming experience.  Ok, maybe this is trivial, but there you have it.

 

What I like about Gautama's teaching in the first four Nikayas (the ones considered most likely to be historically accurate, with the fewest non-historical added lines) is that he's specific and appeals to his listener to verify everything he says for themselves.  So, he teaches four truths about suffering, he teaches the setting up of mindfulness and the material meditative states, and he teaches the immaterial meditative states.  He does refer to the "infinity of ether", the "infinity of consciousness", and "the state of no-thing", but he describes these as the result of the extension of the mind of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity throughout the four quarters of the world, above, and below, so he gives a practice that has some finite sense to it.  If you'd like to read a summary of what Gautama taught, I put my notes together here.

 

Daoism emphasizes an encompassing and completed infinity, the Dao.  I believe that the proofs of Godel in the 1930's established that treating infinity as a completed entity leads to contradictions, and in many ways I believe Gautama avoided that treatment (and the resultant contradictions) while Daoism embraced it.

 

Still, I'm very fond of Tai Chi, and the other internal martial arts of China.  I think I've learned more about how to approach seated meditation through the writings of Cheng Man-Ching than through most of Dogen's teachings!

 

As to what Gautama taught about the self, I believe it was mostly that the identification of self with the material, with feelings, with the mind, with habitual activity, or with mental states was suffering.  "This is not mine, this is not myself" is what he would repeat, and more powerfully "mine is not the doer with respect to this consciousness-informed body", but that is an experience that anyone can have for themselves if they can relax through the suffocation response.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Mark Foote

[3bob]

does one hear of various Buddhist and Taoist masters getting together on the weekends for Toufu cook outs and tea?  If not that should tell you something and also be taken as a sort of pointer about the futility of mixing water and oil although water and oil can be more or less appreciated for what they are without mixing them.

Edited December 22, 2017 by 3bob

[C T]

On 12/22/2017 at 1:01 AM, 3bob said:

does one hear of various Buddhist and Taoist masters getting together on the weekends for Toufu cook outs and tea?  If not that should tell you something and also be taken as a sort of pointer about the futility of mixing water and oil although water and oil can be more or less appreciated for what they are without mixing them.

 

that is common practice in Asia. In India its also common to see Hindus venerating holy Buddhist sites, and vice versa. Mount Kailash is sacred to spiritual aspirants and masters across all traditions in that region. 

 

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean its not happening. 

 

Its not a competition anyway. Diversity in culture and views can be a cause of celebration and a basis for developing trust. 

Why not/ 

[3bob]

ok, some interfaith recognition or tolerance goes on here or there but the historic founders of the major religions and ways (excepting in certain cases) and also those of many of the off-shoots or other ways are taught to look down on and or refute and reject each others teachings per their long standing doctrines. (which btw. is recorded as something the historic Buddha did)    Btw#2. "Hinduism" does not have a historic human founder which makes it different from most religions or ways and also going by its general doctrines, which are supposed to be accepted by its sects, is not supposed to look down on other ways.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by 3bob

[Bud Jetsun]

All the fingers point to the same moon, but none of the fingers are the moon. 

 

Religion simply means to re-link to the nature of reality (or Dao, or infinite more choices in label to describe what can not be labeled.) 

 

If/when the re-linking occurs, there is no confusion or meaningful differences left between whatever optional choices of flavor in dogmas or labels. 

 

Buddha was not a Buddhist, and told his disciples not to so much as write his words down. After his death, leaders who were not Buddha's told monks to practice reading, memorizing and chanting some words and sitting because they didn't know how to live Buddhahood to set the example or teach what it would be like.  

 

Lineage dies with the enlightened being as it only existed through their choice in thought/actions aligning with and appreciating the nature of reality. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

[3bob]

"new age" type thinking, generalizations or correlating can not force all fingers to point to the same moon, sun, or whatever else...but that is a nice image.

 

Buddhists or anyone else (of other ways) who keeps with vows to their school does not reject their vows or school as falsehoods.

 

true and great Lineages do not pass with a single being,  there are secrets about that that only a few are privy to - although larger numbers can see and benefit from the fruits of a true and great lineage. 

 

Apparently you mean well Bud but one can not eat a traditional cake from a  non-mixable pot of water and oil. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by 3bob

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

... Buddha was not a Buddhist, and told his disciples not to so much as write his words down. After his death, leaders who were not Buddha's told monks to practice reading, memorizing and chanting some words and sitting because they didn't know how to live Buddhahood to set the example or teach what it would be like....

 

 

Intention (or habitual activity, conscious or unconscious) is an interesting topic.  You could say Gautama taught the cessation of intention, first in speech, then in the body (in inhalation and exhalation), and then in the mind (in perception and sensation).  Intention has consequence, good or bad, and either way Gautama saw it as ill. 

 

How do you let go of intention?  Everybody does it all the time, but how can one accord one's life with the relinquishment of the sense of self and the experience of action in the absence of volition?  Zazen sits zazen, as Shunryu Suzuki said (to Blanche Hartman), and sometimes zazen gets up and walks around, as Kobun Otogawa said (at S.F. Zen Center, in the 80's).  Where do we find the necessity that lets these things happen? 

 

Gautama got down to eating little shit-balls every couple of weeks, and he still didn't find his--he nearly drowned, almost lacking the strength to grab a tree branch and pull himself out, but after that he recalled sitting under a tree as his father plowed the fields (was his father really a king, ya gotta wonder, based on what he said), and he realized that might be a way.  He regained his strength, and sat for years.  When he finally found his necessity and set out to reconnect with the five ascetics he originally practiced with, he announced to a wandering ascetic on the road that he had found the highest truth, and the ascetic said "good luck" and walked on (love that story).

 

Some history (I hope I'm getting it right).

 

King Asoka, whose flag is still the flag of present day India, sent his son along with the necessary quorum of monks to induct others into the order (I think it was 5 monks) to Sri Lanka, in the third century B.C..  At that time it was required that a novice memorize at least one of the "books" of the Canon, in order to be a monk, as the teaching was passed down orally. 

There were among the order of monks some with "photographic" memories for sound, apparently, beginning with Gautama's attendant Ananda (my understanding is that the sermons that began with "Thus have I heard" were recited by Ananda, when the sermon volumes were composed after Gautama's death, and there are many such sermons).  Nevertheless, by approximately the start of the common era (0 C.E.), the monks in Sri Lanka realized they were in danger of losing some of the "books" of the Canon--a decision was made to put them in writing. 

 

They were written down in the language in which they arrived in Sri Lanka, which was not the language Gautama actually spoke, but the Pali language.  From Sri Lanka, the Order and the written books went to Myanmar, and then to Thailand.  In Thailand, the son of the king featured in "Anna and the King", or "The King and I", gifted a set of the Pali Canon texts to Rhys-Davids, a British civil servant in Sri Lanka, who founded the Pali Text Society to translate the texts. 

 

The last of the sermon volumes (third volume of the Middle-Length Sayings, or Majjhima Nikaya) was translated and published in English by the Society in 1957.  I obtained a copy of the first four Nikayas from England in the 1980's, when I had the money.  Most of the sermons seem boring to me, but every so often there's one that is like a piece of code, consistent across the volumes, unlike anything else in the literature of the world. 

 

The Chan teacher Yuanwu (and Dogen's teacher Rujing) appear to have been aware of at least some of the contents of the Pali Sermon volumes, but Dogen does not--the sermons were not among the texts he copied and brought back to Japan from the year he was in China.  Dogen is consequently very original in some of his teachings, although having read Bielefeldt's "Dogen's Meditation Manuals", it appears he did cop a lot of what he wrote from the Chinese texts he did copy.

Apart from Gautama and the Pali Canon, the first meditation manuals, or actual written instructions with regard to seated meditation, didn't appear until about 1100 A.D. in China (if I understand correctly).  So yes, there was a long history without specific written instructions in China (other than the Canon, which had apparently been brought to China by around 600 A.D.), but by the time Dogen returned to Japan, it was one of the first things he attempted to compose.

Ok, rereading that last paragraph, I ignored the texts that were written centuries after Gautama's death, many of which were attributed to a return of the Buddha from some other-worldly place to provide the teachings that people weren't ready for in his original lifetime.  I guess you'd have to say texts about enlightenment were being written sporadically after Gautama's death the whole time, but they mostly didn't specifically address seated meditation, which Gautama did address.
 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Bud Jetsun]

25 minutes ago, 3bob said:

"new age" type thinking, generalizations or correlating can not force all fingers to point to the same moon, sun, or whatever else...but that is a nice image.

 

Buddhists or anyone else (of other ways) who keeps with vows to their school does not reject their vows or school as falsehoods.

 

true and great Lineages do not pass with a single being,  there are secrets about that that only a few are privy to - although larger numbers can see and benefit from the fruits of a true and great lineage. 

 

Apparently you mean well Bud but one can not eat a traditional cake from a  non-mixable pot of water and oil. 

 

 

You are inherently free to believe as you wish friend, and the same moon will shine on with brilliant indifference. 

 

No matter how well intentioned a tradition or lineage may be, the nature of reality remains equally available for all beings to appreciate if they choose.  In traveling China and Japan and Europe and USA Buddhist and Zen temples, I found only masters increasingly afraid to discuss the nature of reality outside some memorized borrowed phrases from past beings who may have once understood it, but now it rings like a broken bell while stated from a being fearing stumbling through the next philosophical question in front of their students.  If this is the fruit of the traditional cakes than it is with extreme gratitude I was not drawn to eat from it rather than embracing my own path towards embracing the real which never for a moment has been unavailable to any being.  

 

My teacher was and continues to be the whole of the universe in all it's incredible depth of experiential phenomena and beauty.  I have enjoyed reading sutras and philosophy from many regions and eras, some which trigger spontaneous tears of joy in appreciating the beauty in their meaning.  The tears are not because of the quality of the poetry itself or the shapes or patterns of letters, but relating to a shared appreciation of what IS, and remains indescribable to all labels of religion/lineage/sects equally as the same moon remains just as beautiful. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[3bob]

obviously if you only found "masters" with the fears you've mentioned then you did not find, or you could have been blind to finding and seeing true masters, something which you are free to consider or not. 

 

truthful traditional or non-traditional cakes (so to speak) can serve the purpose of manifestation and matrix for what could be called the transcendent,  which does not mean that such can be mixed or forced together per a new-age type of idealism.  (which would be going against "Tao" you implied per the teachings of the T.T.C.)

Edited December 23, 2017 by 3bob

[Bud Jetsun]

18 minutes ago, 3bob said:

obviously if you only found "masters" with the fears you've mentioned then you did not find, or you could have been blind to finding and seeing true masters, something which you are free to consider or not. 

 

 

Agreed.  I found coordinators of regular rituals and reading or speaking aloud and sitting who wear a special robe and sit or stand facing the rest of the group.  I am grateful for the wisdom they shared and may all the instructors and students alike realize their inherent Buddha-nature in this One moment. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

truthful traditional or non-traditional cakes can serve the purpose of manifestation and matrix for what could be called the transcendent,  which does not mean that such can be mixed or forced together per a new-age type of idealism.  (which would be going against "Tao" you implied per the teachings of the T.T.C.)

 

I have no new-age-type idealism or wisdom, nor do I have ancient idealism or wisdom as either would be borrowed from someone else's realizations and in-genuine to pretend to be my own. 

 

I have only my own experiential wisdom and my own experimentally derived ideals, and recognize why I know nothing and why clinging to anything including traditions is only a distraction from appreciating Now.  

 

My wisdom came from making many bad and good choices alike, many impacts with dirt and asphalt and trees and waves, and each new perspective offered from plant and chemical induced altered states of perception.  All of this collected experiential wisdom sums to nothing and no single aspect of it was required, yet all aspects combined to compose appreciation for the current state of this moment being something beautiful and wonder-filled beyond all attempts at human capacity to label or categorize into a dogma or tradition. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[3bob]

no need for far out sounding summations...at least with me.

 

[steve]

It doesn't sound at all far out to me, 3bob...

far more in than out.

[Starjumper]

 

 

On 11/21/2017 at 5:03 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Quote

 

What is Buddhism/the Buddha incorrect about?

 

 

 

Pretty much everything.

 

Buddha fully embraced the philosophical idea of "rebirth", which is -in nature- not different from believing that we're going to ride rainbow-unicorns in the sky. It's a matter of faith.

 

From a theoretical explanation of the afterlife (rebirth) which has no empirical evidence, he derived a philosophical problem, the problem of never-ending suffering in samsara.

To solve a philosophical problem (never-ending suffering) which is based on an unverified dogma (rebirth), he devised a monastic way of life based on ... abandon and suppress all of human's nature: don't have children, don't have a wife, don't work, etc.

 

[Jonesboy]

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:49 AM, Jeff said:

 

Ok. Classical Buddhism is wrong about mind streams all being separate with no overlap. 

 

As well as one mind stream being able to help along another.

[Mark Foote]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:41 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

As well as one mind stream being able to help along another.

 

Doesn't mean you are free to act, apart from the stream (so to speak).

[Jonesboy]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Doesn't mean you are free to act, apart from the stream (so to speak).

 

But one can connect or merge with another to help or be helped. A very powerful thing that is missed in Buddhism.

[Apech]

Mind-stream or citta-santana is a teaching from Yogacara Buddhism and not Classical Buddhism (if by that you mean early Buddhism).  I'm not sure where people are getting this merging or not-merging thing from as the mind-stream is understood as a continuum - but please provide links of references to see what you are quoting.  It just looks like strawmanning to me to be honest.  But as I say show me the source - I would like to see it.

 

By the way in Vajrayana the guru's and student's minds merge in the Sambhogakaya.

 

PS. to the post somewhere above - 'rebirth' is not the same as reincarnation and can be seen as a direct consequence of the citta-santana - since tho' we may die it does not - it is not the same as the incarnation of the Atman through many lives which is Hindu thought not Buddhist.