What's your Tai Chi (short) form like?

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

I think what you have been told is one stock way of telling people, but the truth actually is very different. The Chinese are very good at hiding the real truth and deceiving others in keeping secrets away from their enemies. So they make up some process that actually really doesn't exist and the real truth is lost and a great many of the Chinese no longer know what actually is the truth. What you say is typical of the type of story.

The real truth lies in science and not unproven myths and it is very simple. The most important aspects are the development of the lower dan tien; when you start exercising this properly, your genitals will recede towards the inside of your body. Now the lower dan tien is the battery of life. This battery is governed by your Jing or genetics from your family. Some people can start off with very good jing, others not so. So one has to start by stimulating this battery and the very source of its power and as one goes on over the years one can easily feel this power, control it, send it out and lots of other things. It is like sending volts through your body but you have control of them. These volts make your bones strong, your sinew and muscles strong when you want them to be for this is the very force that makes them move and be alive. So over the years of practice and cultivation the volts in the battery get bigger and bigger and so does the potency.

Now I could tell you this in the most flowery of language and terms and leave bits out and really who would be the wiser.

The Immortal Masters do not lie and when they teach you, they teach you properly, so what I am saying is what they taught me and what I have been cultivating for all these years. All I can say is results start coming very quickly, because it is explained properly, scientifically and not lost in a load of myth and mistruth.

 Okay...my experience has shown that what I've been told works. Maybe your way is more effective for you.

 

I'm posting a little snippet of our latest video (shot yesterday) here, showing us pushing with 2 fingers 

Spoiler

 

 

 

More details are provided in my ppf (full video is 24 mins for those who want to put up with the ordeal :))

Spoiler

 

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by dwai

[morning dew]

22 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Sure, I'll comment, and I do it.  It's in the Chen form, and with some Chen players it's more hidden than others , but they all should have it, even including Yang style, but in there it's really hidden, so well hidden that for some it's lost.  In the video it looks like some of that rotation of the belly is not needed for the particular move, but sometimes a belly movement can manifest in a very small circle movement with a lot of power.  The way Gao Fu taught was that the tan tien should always move with the dominant hand, and if it ever stops moving then you're doing it wrong.  We had exercise to do that were just rolling the belly with hands over tan tien or near to it, which is an excellent training method.  Gao Fu would even do it in her sleep.

 

Since we've been talking about master Feng I found a video of him doing a Chen form.  it isn't a short form but you can make it short by just watching part of it .  If you look at him and some others you should be able to see the belly always moving.  Gao Fu had us focus on that so we did it a bit more, which maybe you can see in my video with Tiger and Squeeky.  Here's Feng

 

 

Here's more Feng, you can see how happy he is that he didn't have to teach Bruce.

 

 

 

Thanks, this is all fascinating stuff.  

 

That second video is amazing the way Feng moves around and folds himself out of various difficult positions. I think I'm beginning to see and understand the idea of meeting something with its opposite in Tai Chi after looking at that video.

[morning dew]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

That first form is quite interesting and beautiful.

My only criticism is that when she is issuing force (fajin), she doesn't seem to get her body and waist into it enough.

Fajin is an expression of whole body unified force.

It seems to be too much coming from the arms and legs in her form.

That said, I'm always cautious about judging others' forms, especially on video. 

Some folks have great form, can't push their way out of a paper bag.

Others have crappy form and have kicked my ass...

 

Thanks, very interesting. Can you give me a couple of times in the video where you think she's not getting her body and waist into it enough? I'm afraid these things are still a bit subtle for me unless they're pointed out.

Edited July 17, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

 I'm glad you like it.  And after the long form it has this advantage of being short...  good for slackers... ...unless you do it the way it's done in Chen village, long then short back to back without stopping, the last move of the long form turns into the first move of the short...  then repeat the sequence three times, long then short then long, etc.  Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't...    

 

But seriously, it is only done "correctly" when it is done internally.  One way to confirm that you're doing it correctly (or find out you're not) is to check your vitals right after you're done -- if your heart rate and respiration rate increased, you're not doing it correctly.  The mantra of taiji classics, "use qi not li," is very verifiable.  If you use li, your vitals will go up, as from a sports performance.  If you use qi, they will stay put as though you're sitting in a chair meditating rather than jumping and kicking and punching. 

 

 

 

This is absolutely fascinating, especially that last bit about vitals not going up when you use qi instead of li.

[morning dew]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

I read his "Opening the Energy Gates" but really liked his "Inner and outer dissolving books - The great stillness and Relaxing into your being. This was still early on in my tai chi practice, and I was very intrigued by the stories in his books.

 

In temple style we have a completely different way of "dissolving". We dissolve into emptiness but not how BKF presents it - that is a lot of "doing".  We drain stuff we don't need into the ground (there is both the "doing way" and the "not doing way"). In our way (after a certain point in practice maturation) we let go of volition to do things - we do by "not doing". 

 

By "not doing" means we hold a posture and let things happen as they happen. This doesn't work at the beginner level because there has to be a certain level of relaxation/sung that needs to develop for it to work. Also, in our system, more than verbal transmission there is energetic transmission of "knowledge". That's why a real teacher is necessary to learn from.  One can do preparatory work by following videos (or very rarely, by following books). But without the transmission, the essence of the system cannot be learnt.

 

Very interesting. I didn't realise you had full-on transmission in Tai Chi. Is this just for Temple style or does it occur in other styles for different things? 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, morning dew said:

 

Very interesting. I didn't realise you had full-on transmission in Tai Chi. Is this just for Temple style or does it occur in other styles for different things? 

Temple Style is not just a Taijiquan system. It is a full-fledged Daoist cultivation and spiritual tradition. It uses the body of Taijiquan to provide much of the information.

 

I know some of other systems that do this kind of transmission as well - Dragon Gate for instance. They too teach taijiquan, etc. I've not experienced their system, but one of their lineage holders, Master Joe Lok is very highly regarded by many of my internal cultivator friends (https://www.joelok.com).

 

Some folks here have direct experience with Master Wang Liping too..

 

Damo Mitchell's knowledge is definitely solid and congruent with what I've been told (albeit I'm not sure if he does transmissions this way or teaches the western way).

 

[morning dew]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

Temple Style is not just a Taijiquan system. It is a full-fledged Daoist cultivation and spiritual tradition. It uses the body of Taijiquan to provide much of the information.

 

I know some of other systems that do this kind of transmission as well - Dragon Gate for instance. They too teach taijiquan, etc. I've not experienced their system, but one of their lineage holders, Master Joe Lok is very highly regarded by many of my internal cultivator friends (https://www.joelok.com).

 

Some folks here have direct experience with Master Wang Liping too..

 

Damo Mitchell's knowledge is definitely solid and congruent with what I've been told (albeit I'm not sure if he does transmissions this way or teaches the western way).

 

Ah, yes, I keep forgetting Temple style is more than tai chi ☺

 

Joe Lok looks very interesting as well. I'll have to check him out properly tomorrow.

[steve]

19 minutes ago, morning dew said:

 

Thanks, very interesting. Can you give me a couple of times in the video where you think she's not getting her body and waist into it enough? I'm afraid these things are still a bit subtle for me unless they're pointed out.

 

Check out the punch at 0:59.

 

I won't exclude the possibility that she has a very small and powerful circle hidden by her silks but all I'm seeing is the triceps snap her punch out. All explosive techniques in taijiquan are an expression of whole body power - rooted in the feet, generated in the legs, controlled by the kua, and expressed through the trunk and limbs.

 

A good example of whole body explosive power is the punch in Chen Bing's excellent clip at 1:48 and 2:05. 

[Starjumper]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

 ...   person whose name rhymes with Larry Flyman  ...

 

Sounds like Hairy Lyman, like the name of an exotic fruit.  or a kind of pie.  Hairy Lieman Pie?

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Starjumper

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Sounds like the name of an exotic fruit.  or a kind of pie.  Hairy Lieman Pie?

Lets just leave such poor souls alone and to their own devises...Mr. Dragon

[Starjumper]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:09 AM, morning dew said:

Yeah, some interesting points in the first paragraph. I think I would have liked to have seen him approaching Sam Masich as well. I'm not quite sure why it was so one-sided.

 

That is the common way for demonstrations to be done.  There is the star of the show which in this case was Brutal Bruce, getting his minute of glory, so he's the one who gets to show the techniques and there needs to be someone to fight with, to beat up, to demonstrate the techniques, which in this case was Sam.  The attacker, sometimes called 'uke', which I think is a Japanese word, is not supposed to know which technique is going to be used, and often they don't; but if they do know which technique is going to be used then they aren't supposed to counter it but instead allow the technique to be demonstrated.

[morning dew]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

Check out the punch at 0:59.

 

I won't exclude the possibility that she has a very small and powerful circle hidden by her silks but all I'm seeing is the triceps snap her punch out. All explosive techniques in taijiquan are an expression of whole body power - rooted in the feet, generated in the legs, controlled by the kua, and expressed through the trunk and limbs.

 

A good example of whole body explosive power is the punch in Chen Bing's excellent clip at 1:48 and 2:05. 

 

Okay, after spending about 10 min looking at both videos on 0.25 speed … yes, she seems to be just leaning forward and doing a kind of jab. He, on the other hand, seems to be driving from the foot/calf and also seems to be getting his back/torso into it as well.

 

This reminds me a bit of what I'm trying to do with Cloud Hands. Every time I turn and start raising a hand, I drive all this by pushing from my foot and calf which helps to twist my waist round as well (not sure if I've described this very well lol).

Edited July 18, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

40 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

That is the common way for demonstrations to be done.  There is the star of the show which in this case was Brutal Bruce, getting his minute of glory, so he's the one who gets to show the techniques and there needs to be someone to fight with, to beat up, to demonstrate the techniques, which in this case was Sam.  The attacker, sometimes called 'uke', which I think is a Japanese word, is not supposed to know which technique is going to be used, and often they don't; but if they do know which technique is going to be used then they aren't supposed to counter it but instead allow the technique to be demonstrated.

 

Ah, very interesting.  

[steve]

22 minutes ago, morning dew said:

 

Okay, after spending about 10 min looking at both videos on 0.25 speed … yes, she seems to be just leaning forward and doing a kind of jab. He, on the other hand, seems to be driving from the foot/calf and also seems to be getting his back/torso into it as well.

 

This reminds me a bit of what I'm trying to do with Cloud Hands. Every time I turn and start raising a hand, I drive all this by pushing from my foot and calf which helps to twist my waist round as well (not sure if I've described this very well lol).

 

Exactly, in cloud hands there is the combined translation and rotation movements - all of it is rooted in the feet, generated by the legs, guided by the hips, expressed in the hands. There is no movement in the arms that is not connected to the kua. This is cultivated in Chen style with silk reeling practice

 

Here is a great example from Zhu Xianghua, son of Grandmaster Zhu Tiancai, watch the interplay of hard and soft.

The explosive power is dependent on both. If you are on the East Coast of the US, Grandmaster Zhu will be visiting Washington DC for a workshop in late August. 

 

 

 

My first taijiquan teacher was very traditional - he would demonstrate something 3 times then leave.

You got it or you didn't...

It took me several years but I eventually realized that the secret to learning from him (at least for me), was to watch his feet and waist (by waist I really mean kua). If I got that right, the arms and hands would naturally follow and would be easy to refine.

 

 

[morning dew]

23 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Exactly, in cloud hands there is the combined translation and rotation movements - all of it is rooted in the feet, generated by the legs, guided by the hips, expressed in the hands. There is no movement in the arms that is not connected to the kua. This is cultivated in Chen style with silk reeling practice

 

Here is a great example from Zhu Xianghua, son of Grandmaster Zhu Tiancai, watch the interplay of hard and soft.

The explosive power is dependent on both. If you are on the East Coast of the US, Grandmaster Zhu will be visiting Washington DC for a workshop in late August. 

 

 

 

My first taijiquan teacher was very traditional - he would demonstrate something 3 times then leave.

You got it or you didn't...

It took me several years but I eventually realized that the secret to learning from him (at least for me), was to watch his feet and waist (by waist I really mean kua). If I got that right, the arms and hands would naturally follow and would be easy to refine.

 

 

 

Thanks, very interesting to watch.  I'm still quite amazed as to how 'martial' Chen style looks.

So, if Silk Reeling is the Chen equivalent of Cloud Hands, what is the purpose of both that they have in common? To get you connecting up the whole body so it moves as a unit? Do they have any purpose beyond that? Do they open up channels? On a physical level, I can feel my body (muscles/fascia?) loosening out. I don't experience as much pain in my arms doing Cloud Hands as I did when I first started a few months ago.

 

I'm in the UK, unfortunately; I would've quite enjoyed checking something like that out. Later on, when I get round to travelling a bit, I'm definitely going to have to check out some people.

Edited July 18, 2017 by morning dew

[Starjumper]

Notice how his waist moves suddenly when he does fajin.  The way I like to think of it and to explain it is like your waist is the handle of a whip and your hand is the tip of the whip, and the motion and power travel out from the handle to the tip in a wave motion just the same way it does in a whip.  This is the primary difference between external and internal style punches I think.  In external styles the arm and hand are like a battering ram, in internal styles it's more like a whip.

 

Another thing demonstrated in that video is that you should be able to express fajin at any part of the movement.  Ultimately you should be able to fajin with any part of your body in any direction.  I has the energy of a sneeze.   AaaaachOO!

 

One warning about practicing fajin, and the video of Dwai comes to mind.  I was recommended to not practice fajin too much because it uses up and depletes your energy.  However if you build up energy to high levels a strong fajin can pop out almost automatically, with just a little bit of intent.  In Dwai's video he isn't doing it too hard so it's not so bad, but if you do it really hard it also shocks your internal organs, another thing which is not so good.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Starjumper

[steve]

11 minutes ago, morning dew said:

 

Thanks, very interesting to watch.  I'm still quite amazed as to how 'martial' Chen style looks.

So, if Silk Reeling is the Chen equivalent of Cloud Hands, what is the purpose of both that they have in common? To get you connecting up the whole body so it moves as a unit? Do they have any purpose beyond that? Do they open up channels? On a physical level, I can feel my body (muscles/fascia?) loosening out. I don't experience as much pain in my arms doing Cloud Hands as I did when I first started a few months ago.

 

I'm in the UK, unfortunately; I would've quite enjoyed checking something like that out. Later on, when I get round to travelling a bit, I'm definitely going to have to check out some people.

 

It's not quite accurate to say that silk reeling is the Chen equivalent of cloud hands.

 

The silk reeling movement is present in cloud hands, and essentially every other movement throughout taijiquan in one way or another. Cloud hands is simply one expression. Silk reeling exercise provides many benefits - when first starting you'll notice the horse stance and sore shoulders more than anything. Once the legs and arms are conditioned, many things will open up. Others can certainly speak more about this topic than me but it works whole body coordination, mind-body integration, opening of the channels, flexibility of the kua, all of which cultivate the spiral energy and internal power. 

[flowing hands]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Notice how his waist moves suddenly when he does fajin.  The way I like to think of it and to explain it is like your waist is the handle of a whip and your hand is the tip of the whip, and the motion and power travel out from the handle to the tip in a wave motion just the same way it does in a whip.  This is the primary difference between external and internal style punches I think.  In external styles the arm and hand are like a battering ram, in internal styles it's more like a whip.

 

I personally don't think one can distinguish between the two. I have been taught thirteen different styles of Daoist arts and all  generate power within a form in so many different ways that one cannot say this is internal and that is external. I learnt an 'external' form called 'Lightening fist' this involved some very nasty whip like strikes, a bit like fork lightening but if one was to use the measure that most seem to label an art as 'internal' or 'external', one, they would find it difficult to do so, two they would probably misname it, because it is both and complete.

[Starjumper]

Ya, I'll admit I was going by some superficial observations and guessing, and that it didn't cover all the bases.  I guess I would have been safer if I had compared it to American karate for children  

[Miffymog]

 

Just want to say that I'm really enjoying this thread. I don't practice any forms my self but watching these youtube links is great. By seeing how someone moves, as opposed to watching them sit or stand, really gives you good insight into the kind of attainment they have achieved in that art.

 

And just a 5 minute youtube video can show you so much in regards to this, which works really well on a website like this. It's then been really interesting comparing all of the different forms that have been put here, because seeing the differences tells you even more.

 

So thank you to morning dew for starting this thread and to all those who have contributed

[morning dew]

Yeah, many thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute something constructive from me as well.

 

I've learnt loads from this thread and found it quite fascinating.  

[flowing hands]

13 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Ya, I'll admit I was going by some superficial observations and guessing, and that it didn't cover all the bases.  I guess I would have been safer if I had compared it to American karate for children  

 

It is very difficult, some years back I took some students to the national champs and the organiser who is a well known Tai Ji teacher recognised me and asked me to do some judging. When he said to me can you judge the internal arts for me I said yes, but I teach external. He was surprised, I didn't really want to say that actually they were both and could not be labelled as either. So one of my students entered into the internal section doing the short form of the 'Flowing Hand art', long form can be seen on my vid. He just did it slowly with some varying emphasis. But really it was an external art. My other students entered the externals doing the long form of Gong Jian Quan (Bow and Arrow Fist). One student did the first form and won a medal and another did the very difficult and very long second form. The third form I have never taught to any one, it is called 'Du Jian Quan (Poison Arrow Fist). So you see I have great difficulty with people who say that there is a difference, because I been taught that actually there isn't!

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-07-16 at 11:44 PM, Starjumper said:

 

The student I have who was his student told me about the chi kung there and it seemed to mostly consist of small movements  holding a small ball around the solar plexus and tan tien areas.  Super wimpy.

 

My understanding of Bruces system is that the core is the downward flow of energy, the dissolving process, and opening up by, among other things, pulsing. It is very good for that, and gives great connectivity. 

 

Most of it is not about power, except the spiralling which he seldom teaches. 

[Taomeow]

On 7/18/2017 at 1:06 PM, steve said:

 If you are on the East Coast of the US, Grandmaster Zhu will be visiting Washington DC for a workshop in late August.

 

 

 

Zhu Tiancai is great.  Here's a (somewhat blurry) video of him visiting our school (with my teacher in red):

 

 

 

[steve]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Zhu Tiancai is great.  Here's a (somewhat blurry) video of him visiting our school (with my teacher in red):

 

 

 

 

The fluidity and connectedness of his body movement are hypnotic... Can't wait to meet him!