Shi Shen and Yuan Shen

[[email protected]]

Fish?

The rational for the fish but not fire is that the main thing is yuan shen, and it is alive, and the water is like a substance which feeds the fish and which is the area where the fish exists.

Rgrds, Ilya

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Awaken,

Xuan Guan (I will call it mystery gate from now one, since we are using an English language forum, mystery gate is its proper name) is, as you know, something which can occur in many different places.  Huang Yuanji said

玄关一窍是修道之根本，学者之先务。

"the one opening of the mystery gate is the root or cultivating the Dao,

the first work of the student."

 

So we can say that this experience has many levels, and I am confident many people can enter the first level very early in practice, so I think everyone should practice high level skills, since the high level skill is just to return to non action.

 

he also said:

玄关一窍是混元一气之玄关。了无声臭可钔，色相可见。

 

"the one opening of the mystery gate is the hunyuan one energy mystery gate.  Attaining 'no sound or smell to encounter, no sights to see."

 

So again, this should always be the goal and priority of our practice, I have no argument with you about this at all.

I argue that there are different ways to enter into the mystery gate in the early stage of practice, and each has its own benefits and problems.   If we go by Huang Yuanji's practice, he says

 

心之下肾之上仿佛在他的虚无窟子

"below the heart and above the kidneys, Place Buddha in his quiet, empty cavern" (for people who are wondering, he means the Qi Hai area under the navel).

 

So we know that he uses this method as the way to 定意 stablise the mind.

定 stabilise only means we 止 stop, not any action.    If we want to achieve non action, we have to stop the mind.   The Northern school will focus on the breath to stop the mind, most other schools will focus on breath and the Qi Xue point, at least in the early stages of practice.   We can argue our own opinion about what is better until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the history of the literature.   From what i have heard from you, your ideas are more similar to Wang Chongyang.  I respect that, but please also respect that Neidan is a very big school with many ideas, even ones that are different from our own preferred practices.

 

I'm going to stop there and I think I will ignore the thread now, since it has been time consuming and tiring for me.

Hopefully in the future we will be more clear about each other's stances and not have to suffer more than we need to.

 

Best wishes,

 

Rob

[allinone]

Good posts, tnx for translations, its surely is hard work.

[Bindi]

Fish?

 

 

The Jing and Qi are like water in a fishbowl (the body), the spirit is like the fish. The better the quality of the water, the healthier the fish. – Master Chen

[Daeluin]

Great thread, thanks for the hard work.

 

I have been taught to use zi qiao and lower dan tien method.

 

Right now I am only into about a month of consistent daily practice, and have noticed that I need to be very careful and gentle with how much I work with zi qiao, as it definitely seems to tax my yuan qi quite a bit, though this also achieves what seems to be the most effective results. So I am being patient and gentle, as my yuan qi is still replenishing, and is used by both my body and my cultivation practice.

 

In the past I have focused somewhat more on lightly turning back the light of the mind as a whole, more of a gentle inward focus, rather than drawing upon the qi qiao directly, and as my ming / yuan qi / yuan jing has replenished through time and augmented with internal martial arts like taijiquan and bagua, the yuan shen has appeared naturally out in front of zi qiao at the right time (shen ming flashes). When it happened there was just this bright light appearing in front of my 3rd eye and I had no idea what it was, as I walked home from class one day. Now that I understand the principles better, I am able to put zi qiao practice some, but also now I understand the importance of balancing this practice with intent to care for my body.

 

In the Wang Liping manual this zi qiao and lower dantien method also seems to be utilized, complete with replenishing ming and then working with zi qiao more specifically as yuan shen appears.

 

A&P, in this manual and also in Damo Mitchel's White Moon on the Mountain Peak zi qiao is described as opening at the 3rd eye and connecting inward to the pineal gland at the center of the head. In the later book Yuan Shen is worked with at the more advanced stages rather than after replenishing ming. It is said this is done because after one reverses the five elements and resides within xuan guan and stabilizes, the yuan shen work will progress until it appears in front of zi qiao as a clear white ball, literally the white moon on the mountain peak, which can then be worked with as the alchemical ingredient to transmute to emptiness.

 

In general it seems this phenomena involving yuan shen can be started at from the beginning, or at a later stage, but regardless may not be complete and full until it has been able to be replenished by the yuan qi (which is replenished by yuan jing). Hence perhaps the methods of combining it with lower dantien work to augment the process. Working with it from the beginning, it seems one will develop more xing experience. However the ming elements are important as well, as they are what contain the xing and keep body as well as I believe the energy body healthy. I'm liking the idea of working with them together, and have found that certain times of the day, month, year are better for one or the other.

 

We see talk of yuan shen leading to void, but my understanding is that void is the merging of all three: yuan shen, yuan qi, and yuan jing. Already at the yuan shen layer we can see that it requires transmutation from yuan qi, which is transmuted from yuan jing. It follows (to me) that for yuan shen to *fully* transmute to void, requires the full completeness from all three to some degree. In my school we practice working with the void/emptiness regularly, as we are able, and using it within the body to help nourish the whole and lead to more advanced practice. Obviously there are many perspectives, and I'm exploring those that cross my path and forming my own sense of what is right for me.

 

I really appreciate that everyone in this thread is harmonizing, and that care is taken to observe that different practices are important at different stages.

[[email protected]]

I think its useless to try to transform yuan qi to yuan shen, untill it is fully replenished. And tho only is possible after you transform yuan jing to yuan qi.

So following to this the first step is to cultivate yuan jing, then integrate it with yuan qi and only then to combine it with yuan shen.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Bindi]

Shi Shen runs the daytime, Yuan Shen runs the dream time. Every night the Yuan Shen tells the body what needs to be done. - Master Chen

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Bindi

[Cleansox]

On 2017-03-22 at 12:08 AM, sillybearhappyhoneyeater said:

 

  If we go by Huang Yuanji's practice, he says

 

心之下肾之上仿佛在他的虚无窟子

"below the heart and above the kidneys, Place Buddha in his quiet, empty cavern" (for people who are wondering, he means the Qi Hai area under the navel).

 

This is why these nei dan threads are so confusing. 

 

"Below the heart, above the kidneys" = way below the navel?

 

I don't think that is the most optimal interpretation, but some lineages do seem to continue to have their focus there instead of allowing it to change. 

 

I wonder if that text was written for the lineage that makes that interpretation. 

 

Xiu Zhen Tu gives a clue. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Cleansox
Added stuff

[Bindi]

I read somewhere, I think Damo Mitchell, that early on the three Dantians were considered to be below the navel (lower), above the navel/the solar plexus (middle), and the heart (upper dantian). The above quote makes sense if it refers to what was originally the middle dantian above the navel/at the solar plexus. 

[Cleansox]

Yes, and there are several names for spaces in that general area. 

[freeform]

Xiantian and Houtian systems have different approaches and use different Dantien placements.

 

Energetic anatomy in Daoism is ‘pragmatic’ - in the sense it’s a map that’s designed to assist in utility, rather than a map designed to show ‘truth’ (which is the normal medical approach)

 

So in a sense neither is wrong and both are accurate within their methodologies - and they don’t, in fact contradict each other on the level of ‘truth’ - they just have different ways of working with your subtle energy.

[freeform]

In regards to ‘below the heart and above the kidneys’ - sounds like the ‘yellow court’ to me.

 

On another note, Qi Hai is an acupuncture point - and should not be used for cultivation.
 

Although the Lower Dantien is at the same horizontal plane as Qi Hai - they are two fundamentally different things...

 

Many practitioners get it very wrong and focus on Qi Hai for years... this initially moves the Qi... But then eventually stagnates and creates all manner of issues.

 

The Dantien is much deeper inside the body... it almost feels closer to the spine rather than the front of the abdomen.

[Cleansox]

Interesting that an experienced practitioner with qualified teachers choose to formulate that. 

[freeform]

20 hours ago, Cleansox said:

experienced practitioner

 

Sadly I've seen experienced practitioners working hard on false methods for decades.

[freeform]

Methods have always been very secretive in Daoism.
 

Sadly some teachers, instead of turning people away, they’ll take on students, and give them incomplete or made up methods. Then the ones who learn these methods will become teachers themselves and pass on these faulty methods.

 

This is how arts are lost. 

 

I personally believe that to a large extent, secrecy no longer has a place in the arts. The limiting factor should be sincerity and effort - not access to genuine methods.

 

I think it’s unfair to knowingly string along a sincere student for years with false methodology.
 

Luckily we’re seeing a wave of teachers starting to spread genuine methods throughout the western world. This is slowly replacing the imagination and choreography based stuff that made its way here in the 70s and 80s.

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

The limiting factor should be sincerity and effort - not access to genuine methods.

Limiting enough, in my experience. Few are willing to dedicate so much time and effort on practice and studies, at least if I use my teachers school as a reference point. 

[XianGong]

13 hours ago, freeform said:

I personally believe that to a large extent, secrecy no longer has a place in the arts. The limiting factor should be sincerity and effort - not access to genuine methods.

 

A safe bet to assume that even if "Secret practices are leaked", very few have dedication and talent to cultivate them to the high level of achievement, and if they do, you can't say they don't deserve it either.

But yeah an abundance of scam and failed practices on the internet and an excess of fake qigong teachers who know nothing about qigong except for showing tricks and trying to bend knives with their eye sockets and move cars by bending spear with their throat.

Makes it more complex, when you believe the fusion of yin and yang, is mating of tiger and dragon and trying to actually visualize the process. 

[Cleansox]

50 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

Makes it more complex, when you believe the fusion of yin and yang, is mating of tiger and dragon and trying to actually visualize the process. 

And that triggered an interesting image in my mind 😂

[freeform]

11 hours ago, XianGong said:

A safe bet to assume that even if "Secret practices are leaked", very few have dedication and talent to cultivate them to the high level of achievement, and if they do, you can't say they don't deserve it either.

Yeah exactly.

 

There are some legitimate reasons to limit free-sharing of methods - specifically if they’re dangerous - or that certain signs when revealed would create confirmation bias in a student.

 

It’s also important for students to understand that these practices aren’t just a collection of methods - they’re step by step processes - the fruits of one process lead you to the next process. You can’t just mix and match processes because you don’t understand the overall causal chain. It’s like trying to improve upon bread baking, having never baked bread before. This isn’t too hard to understand though.

But I find that even the fundamental methods that simply build the foundation are often hidden and secret. These methods aren’t too dangerous, they won’t cause confirmation bias - but they’ll definitely help people progress.

 

I remember being given an ‘secret’ instruction after months of daily training with a school. In fact it was 98% the same training as what they teach in the open - with just a 2% difference (eg. ‘release this spot down to here’) - and that extra 2% made the technique work. Without, it simply didn’t work for the vast majority.

 

I find this kind of thing distasteful personally.

 

Ive even seen teachers give false information that creates specific ‘holes’ in the student’s body. This basically gives the teacher a way to control the students.

[Master Logray]

12 hours ago, XianGong said:

 

A safe bet to assume that even if "Secret practices are leaked", very few have dedication and talent to cultivate them to the high level of achievement, and if they do, you can't say they don't deserve it either.

 

 

In the initial level, it is the case.  After a certain level, even if some "secrets" are obtained, they could be no use or even harmful to practitioners in another school.   The so-called secrets are something inside a system.   They might need enhancers or counter actions to make it work.  Unless one belongs to a similar school, otherwise these "secrets" are for reference only.

[XianGong]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But I find that even the fundamental methods that simply build the foundation are often hidden and secret. These methods aren’t too dangerous, they won’t cause confirmation bias - but they’ll definitely help people progress.

 

I remember being given an ‘secret’ instruction after months of daily training with a school. In fact it was 98% the same training as what they teach in the open - with just a 2% difference (eg. ‘release this spot down to here’) - and that extra 2% made the technique work. Without, it simply didn’t work for the vast majority.

 

Its the problem of external and internal circles. The external circle is usually not even worth studying, as they marinade you for years and decades with broken practices and incomplete methods. And when you switch school it starts again and again.

In some schools, you don't even know if there are internal or core circles, as those are usually not on the surface. In most public schools they don't even exist. 

 

When people teach outsiders for money the last thing they would want to do is give knowledge and training that actually works.

If they would train people to join their own clan or organization, or lineage, then they would have to give real information from start, cause time for cultivation is very limited either way. 

 

I have stumbled upon some practices that are shared in public, but in my own cultivation and research adding few extra bits and changing few details, the ordinary practice suddenly became extremely powerful. That is when I have realized that nobody knows it and everyone does it wrong. 

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, XianGong said:

adding few extra bits and changing few details, the ordinary practice suddenly became extremely powerful.

Just a word of caution. What may seem powerful can in fact be detrimental.

 

Just as snorting cocaine might seem like magic to someone who doesn’t understand what it is and what the knock-on effects are.

 

Putting together bits from different traditions can easily backfire once you’ve actually got Qi.

 

It’s common to think of these arts as computer games where you power up and level up as much as you can. 
 

But the truth is that the path is really quite precarious. It’s filled with pitfalls. In fact it’s mostly pitfalls with a few razor thin wires you can walk that get you to the other side.
 

It’s closer in nature to bread baking than to computer games.
 

You need to work with the right ingredients carefully and precisely to have a tasty loaf at the end.

 

Every quality of each of your ingredients matters. Each stage of creating the dough needs to follow a certain process and produce certain results. 

 

you need to know and understand each aspect. You need to know the expected texture of the dough when kneading. You need to understand how the process changes according to the heat and humidity in the room... How the particular flour will affect the outcome... How to work with your particular oven - and so on.

 

Once you’ve followed the recipe and successfully baked hundreds of loaves - then you begin to understand the process on an intuitive level and can begin experimenting with other ingredients.

 

But before you’re deeply familiar with every aspect of the process, you’re risking baking a bread that doesn’t rise, or is too tough, or soggy or any number of hundreds of possible errors. Most importantly, these errors are not always obvious until you take the loaf out the oven.

 

And in cultivation it’s not bread you’re baking - it’s you.
 

While you can throw away a faulty loaf and begin again - you’ll have to wait until the next fortunate lifetime to cultivate again...

[XianGong]

It is fairly easy to cook bread by following precise instructions of a master chef.

However, cooking a bread once or twice does not make someone the master chef himself.

Moreover cooking a bread might not even be anywhere near the end goal. It could well be one of the first steps on the road.

At some point in cultivation, it won't be just mindless following of exercises and instructions given by a more "knowledgeable" figure.

At some point, researching and exploration of paths will have to be done by a practitioner, and when he has no other experience in life beyond following precise instructions step by step, that will be the end of the path of cultivation.

Of course, if you go for this exploration with no preparation, no basic knowledge, no experience, you have 99.99999999% chance to die quickly.

Cultivation is risky and every mistake is punished but there is also a reason so many people are stuck in bottlenecks seemingly forever, and we don't see any renown masters becoming demi-semi or full-fledged gods, or even attaining enlightenment in its true sense of the word.

Even powerful paths and schools might have endpoints - chokepoints that people are unable to surpass.

 

Oh and then come to the excuses that it is not about cultivation, not about development, but some abstract qualities of mind. Anything less than immortality is a failure in cultivation. The cultivator will die either way and will have to repeat all this path in the future "fortunate" lifetime.

Edited December 4, 2020 by XianGong