Starjumper

Tien Shan Taoist hermitage - Tien Shan Nei Kung

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Posted (edited)

My mistake, sorry.  I shouldn't have put his name in there but got carried away.  I'm glad we're done now.

Edited by Starjumper
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Me three, You've got some fascinating stories and insights.

 

There are so many unknown, unsung masters in the esoteric arts.  It's nice to read about them and keep there legacies and stories alive. 

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Posted (edited)

Tao Stillness wrote in an email:

 

 

Hello Steve,

I just read the thread on Daobums about your posts and watched the video. To help finance your monastery project have you considered producing a dvd or digital download video where you offer instruction for some of the less complex nei kung of Tien Shan? I have tried about 50 different types of chi kung methods over the years and I am not that impressed with the results, which is why I have tried so many. I have the good fortune to work with an Awakened medical clairvoyant who tests most of the chi kung methods that I am interested in to tell me what each one would do for me so I do not waste my time. I have been cultivating inner energy for the past 43 years so your Tien Shan sounds quite valuable but my householder duties prevent me from traveling to a foreign country. So just thought I would ask about the possibility of some kind of teaching, dvd, or like some of the teachers are now doing, offering classes via Skype. If promoted enough, that should be enough to sustain your wonderful project.

Wishing you success in your spiritual endeavors!

Steve M.

 

Hi Steve, thank you for your suggestion.

 

I could make a video and I have made some but there is a problem with your request.  The problem is that Tien Shan chi kung evolves through thousands of techniques.  These techniques gain in complexity which is added like layers, they build on one another and the way they build has a synergistic effect with the result of making it the fastest possible way to cultivate chi power.  The problem is that a video would need to be only one snapshot of an extensive system and it would need to be beginner style, which is fairly simple.  Another thing is that after a student learns it well and has progressed well, and more importantly, they have shown over a period of some years that they are serious students who will stick with it then we start adding some secret or unknown methods that focus a lot more on cultivating chi power.   I can't bring myself to give away these secrets to a vaguely interested public, I don't know why, maybe it's ego, but there it is.

 

There is another important facet to this chi kung, and that is that the teacher radiates a lot of energy while leading the practice, this energy is absorbed by the students and that makes their progress radically faster.  Most chi kung teachers don't radiate energy like that because they don't have the ability nor the power, and even if they could most wouldn't do it anyway.

 

After we do the standing exercises then we do some exercises sitting in chairs, followed by sitting meditations.  The meditations also proceed systematically through many different types, and they are all geared to build on each other and to build chi power as quickly as possible.  While the students are meditating the teacher does more energy work on them which greatly accelerates their progress.  There is nothing wasted, everything we do, every single minute, is all geared towards more power.  We waste not one minute on something which is not a high power technique.

 

So this then brings us to the problem with a DVD.  Since we waste nothing on wimpy chi kung then you may find that the techniques presented in a video are good and useful.  However a DVD must be only one snapshot of a huge system.  It can be only one way of doing it and leave out the other thousands of ways and variations.  A DVD would need to be a simple beginner style without the complex advanced or secret methods. Also a DVD would not give the student energy or do energy work on them like they would get in a class with the teacher.

 

Therefore if I made a DVD and called it Tien Shan Chi Kung people would be misled about what Tien Shan Chi Kung (Nei Kung) really is, and misleading people is unethical.  People may think it's good but it would be nothing special and would be like many of the other DVDs out there.  So if I was to make a video of chi kung it would be required to give it some other name to not soil the good name of Tien Shan chi kung, and who knows if it would be worth it, it would probably just get lost among all the other millions of videos, including all the free ones on Utube.

 

I have thought of making some videos of some exercises and putting them on Utube for free, but deciding what to present is just so much of a strain for my brain ...  If you think it could lead to selling some DVDs and making some money to finish and maintain this place then I will consider it.

 

So, for real Tien Shan system it needs to be done the old fashioned way, the student most go to the mountain, in person, and dedicate some years of their lives to studying it.

 

Thank you for asking

Edited by Starjumper
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You wrote : "These techniques gain in complexity " why techniques should be all complicated?

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In general, like in wing chun, something like three seeds: bong, tan and fook ... from which we get 10.000 techniques ... 

There must be some underlaying core concept / principle in Tien Shan nei kung from which all those countless 10.000 techniques evolves, I suppose.   

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I guess I could make some videos and call them Tien Shan level one, Tien Shan level two, and so on.  That way what they are getting would be clear to the buyer.

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Concerning the constant chi power cultivation in Tien Shan Nei Kung, in the later years there was less time spent doing the standing exercises and more time doing the sitting meditations.  Both the standing and the sitting had more focus on energizing the head for purposes of becoming enlightened and psychic.  You could possibly say that that part was not cultivating more chi power in your body, but you could say it is cultivating more chi power in your head.  There is also some work spent on energizing the crown point so that it constantly sends out a beam of energy.

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You wrote : "These techniques gain in complexity " why techniques should be all complicated?

 

They aren't all complicated and they don't all gain in complexity.   With the ones that do gain in complexity it is like adding several other types of movements on top of the original basic movement.  One purpose of this is that it simply does more types of energy work at the same time, it also applies the energy work to the body in changing ways.  Other exercises start with one basic movement which is done repeatedly and then after some time some variations are added on by one so then the repetitions are not the same but different.  This allows the learning and use of many types of techniques which all evolved from the one simple basic exercise.  In the long run it helps you remember all the different techniques.  Then at times some exercises are added, they go through a brief evolution of variations and then are dropped.

 

There were times when he only did something new only one time, and some people who weren't observant or didn't practice a lot might miss it.  There was one such technique that he did once, that I forgot for some years, and then it came back to me while I was practicing with my chi kung brother.  Each week he and I took turns leading and following.  So the next week it was his turn to lead and he did that technique and added some more flavor to it.  I practiced those things and discovered some more things hidden in the technique so the next week I shower them to him.  In this way we discovered that the technique which he did only once was a secret and that it contained the keys to a vast world of types of energy packing.  Types of very powerful energy packing which no one seems to know about.

 

This type of research and discovery is encouraged by the teaching of added layers of complication along with endless variations.  You could say that the teacher taught us about five thousand techniques in eight years and then it was up to us to discover the other five thousand.  That's how a true path of the wizard is supposed to work.

 

What does it take to learn 5000 techniques?  Well if you learn twelve new techniques each week for eight years that will get you to around 5000.  So it is a path that requires some dedication and a lot of practicing, and the way Mr. Yueng taught us Tien Shan Chi Kung is about the only way to do it that I can imagine ... without it taking several lifetimes.

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I guess I could make some videos and call them Tien Shan level one, Tien Shan level two, and so on.  That way what they are getting would be clear to the buyer.

Santiago taught KAP.  It was taught through Skype, so while it wasn't in person, there a live audio back and forth between a teacher and the students taking the course.  There may be more sophisticated 'sharing' live audio's now. 

 

The Wim Hof system was 10 weeks, with written instruction, week by week videos, and a forum for additional questions.  Before that the man who inspired KAP Genn Morris sold a program called Meditation Mastery that was 10 cassettes.  (yeah, I'm old)

 

There are myriad ways of getting out instruction.  Each with plus's and minus's. 

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In general, like in wing chun, something like three seeds: bong, tan and fook ... from which we get 10.000 techniques ... 

There must be some underlaying core concept / principle in Tien Shan nei kung from which all those countless 10.000 techniques evolves, I suppose.   

 

I guess there is, but I haven't thought about it that way.  I'll let it simmer for awhile and see what comes up.  Possibly there are several ways it can be thought of.  It's good you like Wing Chun, maybe you can tell me wht bong, tan, and fook mean.  Fook was my teachers first name and he said that it meant good luck.

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 Hello, Steve. Just want to chime in and to say few words about this:

 

 

There is another important facet to this chi kung, and that is that the teacher radiates a lot of energy while leading the practice, this energy is absorbed by the students and that makes their progress radically faster.  Most chi kung teachers don't radiate energy like that because they don't have the ability nor the power, and even if they could most wouldn't do it anyway.

 

This is what is called "teaching without words" in Daoism.

 

I had been trying to explain this to people on this forum for couple of years. And I remember that a few years ago I wrote this to Tao Stillness  in the PM but he blocked further conversation with me. 

 

I see there is a tendency among practitioners to be independent from a Teacher and at the same time getting transmission from him. Some people even want to learn Neikung with DVDs and books. But how it can replace a Teacher?

 

It had been stressed over some period of time on this forum by some members, but eventually some other members said that they wanted to supress folks here on TDB. I personally can't realize how it is possible to learn any authentic practices with DVD. There are so many sublities in techniqs that it is just impossible to transmit it through video or book. I see that people struggle to understand the very basics of Daoism.

 

By the way how your neikung correlates with traditional Daoism? What your teachers said about it?

I wonder why there are so many techniqs in the TSNK.

Thanks

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Posted (edited)

 

 

By the way how your neikung correlates with traditional Daoism? What your teachers said about it?

 

He said it was a purely Taoist chi kung (ie, not stained by Buddhism)  He said it was created by a group of Taoists who wandered into the wilderness around 3800 years ago, to the Tien Shan mountains, to live as hermits and they developed this chi kung there.

 

 

 

I wonder why there are so many techniqs in the TSNK.

 

 If you want to create a real master then they need to know all or most of the techniques.  Someone could practice some wimpy chi kung that only has twenty techniques, and if they practiced it long enough they could say they had mastered it ... then they can sell DVDs, put on seminars, wear brightly colored costumes, and call themselves masters.   :)

 

It is said that an expert in chi kung will not be aware of all the nei kung methods, but an expert in nei kung will know all the chi kung methods.  I feel that any real master must be a nei kung master, that there are not really any chi kung masters except in name.  In fact in Taoism there are no official titles and mastery is only in the eye of the beholder. 

 

It has been written that the powerful Taoist systems contain ten thousand techniques, but in Taoism ten thousand simply means 'too many to count'.  In Tien Shan Chi kung if you counted every single piece and every variation you could possibly get to around ten thousand, but if you counted major categories of movement and types of techniques you might only get to a thousand, or many many hundreds.

 

Another thing that having a vast quantity of techniques does is it keeps an intelligent person involved, curious, and exploratory, rather than bored, and only highly intelligent and successful (determined) people have what it takes to succeed in a nei kung system.

 

http://www.tienshan.net/mastery.html

Edited by Starjumper

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Posted (edited)

 

 

There is another important facet to this chi kung, and that is that the teacher radiates a lot of energy while leading the practice, this energy is absorbed by the students and that makes their progress radically faster.

 

This is what is called "teaching without words" in Daoism.

 

I suppose that is part of it, but the main part is that during the exercise class neither the teacher nor the students say a word, although some telepathy may occur  =)  Learning in this way require careful observation and exact imitation, two relatively lost arts.

 

The part of the system that includes the teacher radiating energy to the students in person, in a closed indoor space, is essential to make fast progress in real nei kung, and it's a really long path, so everything that helps speed it up is important, also, it's required to go far.   Without that there will be NO serious progress in nei kung!  It is partly why powerful masters preferred to live and teach in caves, after awhile the energy soaks into the minerals and crystals in the cave and the place becomes highly energized.  A good substitute for this are the ceramic houses that Chinese hermits used to make for themselves, and these days, basements or concrete construction, which is what I use, a room in which the floors, walls, and ceiling are concrete and it is partly underground.

Edited by Starjumper
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I see there is a tendency among practitioners to be independent from a Teacher and at the same time getting transmission from him. Some people even want to learn Neikung with DVDs and books. But how it can replace a Teacher?

 

It had been stressed over some period of time on this forum by some members, but eventually some other members said that they wanted to supress folks here on TDB. I personally can't realize how it is possible to learn any authentic practices with DVD. There are so many sublities in techniqs that it is just impossible to transmit it through video or book. I see that people struggle to understand the very basics of Daoism.

 

Some of the simple things, like standing meditation can be shared via DVDs and Books, but there is something huge missing when a person does not have close personal contact with a real Taoist master for his learnings, and skype doesn't cut the mustard.  I guess some people just don't like being instructed in person.  Also, I guess it's a matter of convenience, where someone can learn something, and frequently it would be learned poorly, from a person they deem to be knowledgeable, without leaving the comfort of their own cocoon.

 

Also, keep in mind that this is the age called Kali Yuga, where dishonesty prevails.  Therefore you get people making less than honest claims and using technology to make money.  You also get 'seekers' who don't want to try too hard and who are suckered by the quick'n'easy snake oil salesman, which results in teachers who cater to the wants of those people.

 

I'm sure everyone has heard it a million times, "you get out of something what you put into it", and so those who seek convenience and quick'n'easy simply are missing the boat.  Well, they are on another boat =)  a pleasure barge drifting towards the waterfalls. 

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Posted (edited)

And could you give us some anecdotes of his amazing qi/healing/martial arts/psychic abilities?

 

I mean for a common reference point here, how would he stack up against "John Chang," for instance?

 

 

I think comparing John Chang with Mr. Yueng is kind of like comparing apples and oranges.  I don't know a lot about John Chang other than he could put out a lot of heat with his hands and give people electrical shocks.  Obviously John had a lot of chi power.  Mr. Yueng could also make things get very hot with his hands but I don't know if could make paper catch on fire.  He could cause involuntary muscle twitching in people like John did, but he did it without touching, he didn't need to use contact or needles.

 

The fact is that 'hidden' masters like Mr. Yueng, who like to keep a low profile, will only show students something like 1% of their power and they do it rarely.  John Chang is just a young feller, only half baked, and it seems he discovered this (not showing off) the hard way. I joined a Mo Pai forum for a little while, before I requested to be banned from there, and found that they are like a bunch of fanatic religious fundamentalists engaged in idol worship.  They know basically nothing of the system and never will know it.   That's one difference between John and Mr. Yueng, who only has a few people who knew him personally, who loved him.

 

I would say that Mr. Yueng's strong points, in addition to his vast chi power were his powerful psychic abilities, his unconditional love, and his obviously enlightened spirit.

 

I'll just share some things about him at random now.

 

He went to an open house at the University of Washington Hospital, where his wife worked, and had a free EEG brain wave test.  The doctors interpreting the readout said his EEG was like that of a teenager's.  He was 78 at the time.

 

Once I and this Russian guy, who was very psychic, were with him in his garage and he said he was going to show us how to take sick energy out of the liver.  He stood about ten feet away, facing us, and put his hand, with the fingers in the bird beak form a couple of inches away from his liver.  The Russian guy, who was also very talkative, said "look, he's really concentrating"  Then Mr. Yueng moved his hand suddenly about one inch, away from his body, and it felt like getting hit by a pressure wave from an explosion.  I don't know how many here have felt a pressure wave from an explosion, but when I was a kid I used to play around making small bombs.  Maybe some here have been close to a really big firecracker, like an M80, when it goes off.  Anyway, it was like getting hit by a pressure wave from an explosion, like POW!, hitting the whole body all at once. ... and the Russian guy said "Wow, did you feel that"

 

I've been writing too much this morning so I'll continue with this later.

Edited by Starjumper
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I suppose that is part of it, but the main part is that during the exercise class neither the teacher nor the students say a word, although some telepathy may occur  =)  Learning in this way require careful observation and exact imitation, two relatively lost arts.

 

The part of the system that includes the teacher radiating energy to the students in person, in a closed indoor space, is essential to make fast progress in real nei kung, and it's a really long path, so everything that helps speed it up is important, also, it's required to go far.   Without that there will be NO serious progress in nei kung!  It is partly why powerful masters preferred to live and teach in caves, after awhile the energy soaks into the minerals and crystals in the cave and the place becomes highly energized.  A good substitute for this are the ceramic houses that Chinese hermits used to make for themselves, and these days, basements or concrete construction, which is what I use, a room in which the floors, walls, and ceiling are concrete and it is partly underground.

 

I suppose this is the most important part in it. That's what many many other qigong systems apart of neikung, are missing.  

Yes, caves would be perfect for the "energy soaking" purposes but any other constatnt place can be suitable. It should meet a few requirements. We have a place for practicing in bug city and I really can experience its energised effect even just being there. I think it will be hard to a student to make real progress in practice without seeing a teacher constantly. Besides that the group energy is very crucial for making real progress. Ordinary person lives in very "polluted" environment which affects practitioner's energy and mind negatively and the teacher's/group energy would affect the energy and mind in a positive way.

  

 

 

This is another reason for practicing the ten thousand ways in nei kung, so that you learn stuff like this: 

 

Well, I dont think it must be like that. There are different schools with different approaches. It is not always good to do many techniques. It might depend on personal qualities of a master who created a system.  

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Three seeds of wing chun: bong, tan and fook sao.

 

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Posted (edited)

Three seeds of wing chun: bong, tan and fook sao.

 

 

Thanks, I've practiced a little bit of those.  So fook means to hook.  Fook = hook = fook.  Mr. Yeung, who's first name was Fook, had Praying Mantis as his favorite method, and both Praying Mantis and he would use hooking, or fooking, a lot.  He would hook whatever came near him and trap it.  Kind of like Brer Rabbit punching the tar baby.  Try to punch him with one hand and it would get hooked and trapped, try to punch him with the other and that one would get hooked and trapped.  Then try to kick and the leg would also get trapped ... so then whatcha going to do while standing around on one leg?

Edited by Starjumper
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Posted (edited)

This is another reason for practicing the ten thousand ways in nei kung, so that you learn stuff like this:  http://www.thedaobum...ating/?p=745561  

Well, I dont think it must be like that. There are different schools with different approaches. It is not always good to do many techniques. It might depend on personal qualities of a master who created a system.  

 

I agree.  Making spiritual progress or achieving enlightenment does not require a lot of techniques.  For example Zen only has one technique  :)  and it works ... slowly.

 

I was referring to how knowing the thousands of techniques in a whole nei kung system simply gives you a broader perspective on where any technique falls on a spectrum of power or movement, on several spectrums actually.

 

There is also this thing in Taoism called 'Arriving at the formless' and it is a rather important aspect of Taoism spoken of in the tai chi classics.  

 

In the tai chi classics it states that one must first study the forms in order to eventually arrive at the formless, and I think this same concept is hinted at somewhere in the TTC.  

 

It applies in a couple of ways at least.  The long term goal of tai chi is to arrive at the formless, in terms of combat, it means you know all the ways of moving so well that you instinctively know the underlying principles of the way to move in self defense and can 'make up' your own most effective self defense technique on the spur of the moment.

 

In chi kung oir nei kung it's the same thing, after learning the ten thousand ways to move you then know the underlying principles of how it all works and then you can do formless chi kung.  In other words, you can make up your own form to serve whatever purpose you have in mind at the moment, or alternately you can approach it with no mind and simply end up doing what feels best at the moment, which is frequently empowering for your health.  I won't use the term spontaneous chi kung for it because that concept has been corrupted to be something which is NOT a result of decades spent 'studying the forms'.

 

In terms of philosophy and playing the game of ethics, which is the game of life in Taoism, you can also arrive at the formless; which means no rules.  It means skillfully navigating yourself through the trials of everyday life while maintaining an inner calm; virtue.

 

Or something like that =)

Edited by Starjumper
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Here is what my martial art looks like, which was Mr. Yueng's martial art.  In fact this system is named Yueng Chuan, after him, as  demonstrated by Steve Smith, his designated successor.  You can see that it has similarities to Systema.

 

 

This was Bruce's main art as well and it's where he got the name 'intercepting fist': the one second fight, which doesn't play well in theaters so he didn't show it much.

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 I like it. On this video I can see a lot of similarities with traditional Aikido. But downside in Aikido is the lack of internal training in the system

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I was at this mountain retreat and taught a little chi kung in the mornings

 

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Posted (edited)

 I like it. On this video I can see a lot of similarities with traditional Aikido. But downside in Aikido is the lack of internal training in the system

 

 

Yes there are similarities with the way an attack is intercepted, with the way there is a blending with the energy of the attacker's momentum.  BUT, there are some big differences too.  In Aikido the attacker usually runs towards the defender while holding his arm up in the air like a lever, like this:

 

Lever

10294d1460561778-long-floor-shift-lever-

 

The goal of the defender is then to grab this lever and use it to dance around for a half hour, or three or four seconds, finally tumbling the opponent to the ground. peacefully.   :)

 

Yueng Chuan, on the other hand is made to intercept real punches to the face, with the defender's attack arriving at about the same time as the attackers attack ... or at least less than a second after the attack.  Bruce Lee named this method as 'intercepting fist'.  In many cases you go towards the attack while blending with it.  It also means close quarter abilities.

 

It also isn't peaceful like Aikido since it has a lot of killing moves.  It has a lot of blinding, joint breaking, head smashing, neck breaking, and other ways to terminate a conflict forever, instantly.  For people who aren't used to noticing, I'll point out all the locations that have potential eye gouges/blinding and neck breaks in the first video.  https://youtu.be/O1mKR_F5G8Q  They happen at 0:24, 0:50, 0:55, 1:05, 1:35.

 

In other words, at around the time the attacker expects his fist to hit your face he has a broken elbow or he finds your face in his face, with your fingers in his eyes or hands on chin and neck for a quick snap or head smash to ground.  For me the elbow breaks, and head smashes are the simplest, easiest and most fool proof way to protect yourself.    It takes more skill to put someone down without hurting them, not that you would want to do that, because then the attacker will just get up again and attack you again.

 

So what we do is 1. run away, or if not possible, 2. incapacitate them (temporarily or forever) so they can't chase you and then run away.  It's for life or death situations only, it's NOT a sport.

 

In other parts, if it weren't for the deliberate pausing you could see how sometimes the intercept and attack occur simultaneously.

Edited by Starjumper

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Thanks, I've practiced a little bit of those. So fook means to hook. Fook = hook = fook. Mr. Yeung, who's first name was Fook, had Praying Mantis as his favorite method, and both Praying Mantis and he would use hooking, or fooking, a lot. He would hook whatever came near him and trap it. Kind of like Brer Rabbit punching the tar baby. Try to punch him with one hand and it would get hooked and trapped, try to punch him with the other and that one would get hooked and trapped. Then try to kick and the leg would also get trapped ... so then whatcha going to do while standing around on one leg?

I was told that "Fook Sau" was "Bowing Hand" - starts in this sort of position but can become anything.

 

I am interested in how you mentioned you interest in being a chi kung teacher and were fortunate in finding who you did. You mention past lives and seeds...

 

...sometimes I feel this is my journey. In February I found this place and now attend weekly: http://www.yinghua-wu-style.org

 

I feel blessed to have found direct family lineage. Even her uncle doesn't teach it the way her grandmother did, apparently.

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