Taoist Cultivation methods to transform karma

[DSCB57]

Hi everyone, I would like to know which forms of spiritual cultivation exist aside from the Buddha Dharma practices to transform or negate negative karma? How do they achieve this? It has been explained to me that the Shaolin arts enable karma to be transformed, something which somewhat changed my point of view regarding the martial arts practiced by the Shaolin, so now I am wondering whether the Taoist martial practices are able to act in a similar way, or whether another method is used to reach the same end?

 

David

[Taomeow]

Some taoist schools borrowed the concept of karma from buddhism, but the original taoist ideas bypass this notion, i.e. they neither confirm nor deny a "belief" in karma, they are just looking at things more fundamental than karma -- to wit, basic existential energies of the world -- and seek to balance and harmonize them toward all the "good karma" outcomes which a balanced harmonious state generates spontaneously.  These energies arise from the initial separation of wuji into taiji and then proceed to diversify and, in the process, may (and did) get temporarily skewed.  Pretty much all genuine taoist practices are aimed at correcting this skewed state.  This includes internal MA, of course, not at the beginner/external level but at the level of taiji neigong and taiji neijia.  But you can go with any genuine taoist practice (key word practice, not "belief"), and it leads there if you go in-depth and don't skip steps and develop a relationship with these energies on all levels, from the beginner's "metaphorical" to the seasoned practitioner's "mastery of qi" to the sage's "roaming the root of heaven and earth."     

[Bubbles]

  But you can go with any genuine taoist practice (key word practice, not "belief"), and it leads there if you go in-depth and don't skip steps and develop a relationship with these energies on all levels, from the beginner's "metaphorical" to the seasoned practitioner's "mastery of qi" to the sage's "roaming the root of heaven and earth."     

 

Key word practice

and if you don't have access to a genuine taoist practice so far, you can still have a genuine access to your life and work/practice from it, it may not sound sexy but, it is real. It is the next best thing- if Taoism is the best.

[awaken]

Martial is martial.

 

Someone practice martial went to Shaolin made a Shaolin gung fu.

 

Daoist martial is the same.

[Spotless]

Karma is your positions - the illusion of "you" - your inertia's, positions.

 

If you seek to transform or negate "negative" karma, you seek to transform inside.

 

You are not stuck with a buildup of negative karma held in some account outside of you and judged by the Gods  - "negative karma" is your self created propensities / inertia's that continue to fuel and enforce what you cling to - your positions - grasping.

 

"Positive Karmic points" are simply expressions of energetic affinity to you for "Self" remembering that will repeatedly help you to remove position and grasping. In other words: Actions that move toward a frequency of non-attachment and non-doing - selflessness - will go a considerable distance in helping you to do / become more of the Self. Actions that reinforce the deep grooves of the illusion will increase the rigidity of the prison of your tensions that we have given the term known as Karma.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Spotless

[Kara_mia]

I agree in that concept of karma was borrowed from Buddhism. Of course, it can be set out in hundreds of words, but for myself, for the sake of ease, I define karma as who I am, i.e. my karma is me - my body and the life I am leading. And this can be transformed to the full only by practicing neidan.

[dawei]

I agree in that concept of karma was borrowed from Buddhism. Of course, it can be set out in hundreds of words, but for myself, for the sake of ease, I define karma as who I am, i.e. my karma is me - my body and the life I am leading. And this can be transformed to the full only by practicing neidan.

 

 I do appreciate this line of thinking.... but find the ideas of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi to be easier... just drop the distinction and concept...  so what is there then to talk about

[DSCB57]

 I do appreciate this line of thinking.... but find the ideas of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi to be easier... just drop the distinction and concept...  so what is there then to talk about

 

I have practiced a considerable amount of Neigong - I presume what you mean is Neidan Gong? And to my mind there is little difference between Zhan Zhuang standing meditation and sitting meditation. Where the differences start to appear within different traditions is in the breathing and MCO exercises. As far as I am aware, the focus on the breath is pretty similar between the Taoist and Buddhist cultivation methods, but the MCO is not part of the Buddha Dharma tradition, and this is a major difference, because although the MCO happens perfectly naturally along the Water path, it does not naturally follow the Fire Path without intervention, and as far as the Buddhist tradition is concerned any such intervention will corrupt the purity of the transformation taking place, if I understand it correctly. I also believe that the cultivation of the pearl of refined Qi and its subsequent condensation at the Dantien is foreign to the Buddhist approach - specifically outside Chinese Buddhism which as we know incorporated a significant amount of Taoist practice into the tradition, especially the Ch'an schools. 

 

"There is nothing to talk about", point taken - it is about experiencing. But we are taking baby steps here in order to understand this process...

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

The Internal Elixir School (zhong pai branch) on the predestination of human affairs:

 

身心世事，
Body, mind, the world, and affairs,
謂之四緣，
These are the four predestinations
一切世人皆為縈絆，
All living people are bound and tangled up by them.
惟委順者能應之，
Only by cultivating compliance can one accord with them.
常應常靜，何緣之有。
Long in accord, long quiet ,
What predestination could there be?  -  Li Daochun

 

 

Like someone said before, practice is the key.

[DSCB57]

The Internal Elixir School (zhong pai branch) on the predestination of human affairs:

 

身心世事，

Body, mind, the world, and affairs,

謂之四緣，

These are the four predestinations

一切世人皆為縈絆，

All living people are bound and tangled up by them.

惟委順者能應之，

Only by cultivating compliance can one accord with them.

常應常靜，何緣之有。

Long in accord, long quiet ,

What predestination could there be?  -  Li Daochun

 

 

Like someone said before, practice is the key.

 

Did you write this before or after my previous post? I think it would be obvious that I base everything upon practice - many years of it in fact. However there is fruitful practice and practice that bears little fruit, and this is to some extent conditioned by who or what we learn from. In my case much of my practice has been without much reward compared to the effort expended, and some of this is down to the quality of those who taught me, (and that in turn is probably down to my own lack of De - virtue). However, now that I am soon to reach 60 years of age, I consider that it is the moment to make the most of whatever time I have left to make sure that what I learn will have a beneficial effect upon my health and my spiritual growth. 

Nothing is wasted, I realize that, because one can learn from every experience, however it must be said that there are a great many charlatans and would be masters profiting from the westerner's ignorance and gullibility, either leaving them with an incorrect or otherwise distorted practice, which at best gives them very little and at worst actually can have a very negative effect upon their health and well being. The latter worse case scenario has unfortunately been the case for me for the most part. 

It is all well and good to be told "Be your own master!", but that is easier said than done, and practising Neigong cultivation in such a way can easily lead to serious deviations - as I learnt the hard way. 

[Rara]

What's wrong with your karma?

 

If you want to change it, you could just not do what you're currently doing

[Rara]

Key word practice

and if you don't have access to a genuine taoist practice so far, you can still have a genuine access to your life and work/practice from it, it may not sound sexy but, it is real. It is the next best thing- if Taoism is the best.

Doing the dishes works for me!

[DSCB57]

What's wrong with your karma?

 

If you want to change it, you could just not do what you're currently doing

 

Karma is what it is, but it is not necessarily due to one's own actions or transgressions against Universal Law. All I know is that I have suffered a great deal as a result of the Karma I have taken on in this lifetime, but I am not trying to escape from it. I asked how to transform this Karma.

You obviously have a very limited idea about the way the Law of Karma functions. It is Karma from past lives or Karma one has agreed to bear for others that I am talking about. This is also what manifests as pain, suffering and other hindrances in the present, not only what one is doing or thinking or saying in the present moment. If it were as easy as 'doing the dishes' as you say, or 'chopping wood' as someone else quoted me, then why would I have needed to start this thread? It's easy to be smug when one is not suffering and when one lacks the compassion to understand the suffering of others and the desire to help them in compassionate selfless service.  

[Jeff]

Hi everyone, I would like to know which forms of spiritual cultivation exist aside from the Buddha Dharma practices to transform or negate negative karma? How do they achieve this? It has been explained to me that the Shaolin arts enable karma to be transformed, something which somewhat changed my point of view regarding the martial arts practiced by the Shaolin, so now I am wondering whether the Taoist martial practices are able to act in a similar way, or whether another method is used to reach the same end?

 

David

Hi David,

 

Mystical Christianity and Kashmir Shaivism definitely also has practices/components where one transforms karma. Also, I think that the way you are viewing it, all advanced tantric (energy) practices transform the karma. Since you are familiar with Buddha Dharma, they would be things like "mother tantra" or deity/guru yoga. But, the goal of each of these traditions is more to ultimately step beyond karma. Here is the buddhist "good merit" path and it is approximately the same (with a few tranlastions) in mystical Christianity...

 

Fascicle 40 (of 40)

 

At that time Samantabhadra Bodhisattva-Mahāsattva, having praised Tathāgatas’ merit, said to the Bodhisattvas and the youth Sudhana: “Good men, if Buddhas [in worlds] in the ten directions expound Tathāgatas’ merit continuously for as many kalpas as there are dust particles in innumerable Buddha Lands, they still can never finish their narrations. If one wants to go through this Merit Door, one should train in the ten great vowed actions. What are these ten?

 

First, make obeisance to Buddhas.

Second, praise Tathāgatas.

Third, make expansive offerings.

Fourth, repent of karma, the cause of hindrances.

Fifth, express sympathetic joy over others’ merits.

Sixth, request Buddhas to turn the Dharma wheel.

Seventh, beseech Buddhas to abide in the world.

Eighth, always follow Buddhas to learn.

Ninth, forever support sentient beings.

Tenth, universally transfer all merits to others.”

 

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra21.html

[[email protected]]

I think that the best way to improve karma is just to have regular practice, to do smth good and to share your methods with those who are willing to develop. And no matter if it is a martial art or some qi gong practice, the only thing is that it should not lead people to the wrong way and wrong results.

[MIchael80]

From my understanding spotless has put it best.

 

Karma is our thinking and feeling patterns we are attached to. The reactions we have when we are triggered, our experience of our sense of self; the blockages in our bodies......and on a very deep level even our bodies.

 

I would not talk about transforming it; it is stuck energy....it needs to be released.

Our world constantly reflects back our karma and we are stuck in the cycle of samsara because we want to change outside events....but they are just an expression of our unconcious held karmic loads. If we look what the outer events cause within us (the thoughts and escpecially the emotions) then they can be released and this errodes our sense of self until that which always was is revelead.

and the nice thing is that outer events very often then change without doing anything other than releasing the loads we carry....and diseases heal also with this.

 

To really release the deep stuff we need to be able to fully feel it while it passes. Fully feeling is something that even people who are in an awake state want to bypass. So this is simply yet not easy.

 

So our whole day can a means to release ever deeper patterns of karmic imprinting.

the best way to learn this in my opinion is Michael Browns "the presence process" (teaches this outer reflection cycle) and Scott Kilobys work.

[dawei]

From my understanding spotless has put it best.

 

Karma is our thinking and feeling patterns we are attached to. The reactions we have when we are triggered, our experience of our sense of self; the blockages in our bodies......and on a very deep level even our bodies.

 

. . . .

 

So our whole day can a means to release ever deeper patterns of karmic imprinting.

the best way to learn this in my opinion is Michael Browns "the presence process" (teaches this outer reflection cycle) and Scott Kilobys work.

 

Karma is a word... so we're now captive to language and explanation and mind...  

[Bindi]

From my understanding spotless has put it best.

 

Karma is our thinking and feeling patterns we are attached to. The reactions we have when we are triggered, our experience of our sense of self; the blockages in our bodies......and on a very deep level even our bodies.

 

I would not talk about transforming it; it is stuck energy....it needs to be released.

Our world constantly reflects back our karma and we are stuck in the cycle of samsara because we want to change outside events....but they are just an expression of our unconcious held karmic loads. If we look what the outer events cause within us (the thoughts and escpecially the emotions) then they can be released and this errodes our sense of self until that which always was is revelead.

and the nice thing is that outer events very often then change without doing anything other than releasing the loads we carry....and diseases heal also with this.

 

To really release the deep stuff we need to be able to fully feel it while it passes. Fully feeling is something that even people who are in an awake state want to bypass. So this is simply yet not easy.

I completely agree, sounds simple but seems to be one of the hardest things in the world to do, because it involves directly facing pain.

 

So our whole day can a means to release ever deeper patterns of karmic imprinting.

the best way to learn this in my opinion is Michael Browns "the presence process" (teaches this outer reflection cycle) and Scott Kilobys work.

[hagar]

Hi everyone, I would like to know which forms of spiritual cultivation exist aside from the Buddha Dharma practices to transform or negate negative karma? How do they achieve this? It has been explained to me that the Shaolin arts enable karma to be transformed, something which somewhat changed my point of view regarding the martial arts practiced by the Shaolin, so now I am wondering whether the Taoist martial practices are able to act in a similar way, or whether another method is used to reach the same end?

 

David

 

This is my first post in TTB for some time and the first time I must fundamentally disagree with all previous posters. No disrespect. 

Up front, martial arts may possibly change 'karma' by protecting others, but beyond that pure martial practice is quite shallow.

 

In my personal experience, 2 separate aims are emphasized in Daoist practices;

- Cultivating Life

- Cultivating Essence

 

If you cultivate essence (basic nature of mind) you transcend the entire notion of karma or anything that is contingent and subject to time and space. Here Karma is seen as irrelevant for the only true self, which you allready are. So why bother changing it. 

 

However, when cultivating life, particularly through Nei Dan, you actually speed up karma. This means that you should be quite prepared and detached when cultivating Nei Dan practices, because they open the subtle channels and alot of energy that allready is conditioned, is given more energy, and will manifest itself. 

In my experience, I got "more bad karma" by cultivating Nei Dan; meaning things that were set in motion speeded up much more rapidly.

 

So if you want to transcend karma thorugh practice, you cannot do so without not wanting it

Either, you see the futile nature of changing the changing

Or, you realize that stopping what has allready been set in motion by focusing energy there is also futile

However, that insight is very liberating indeed.

 

In both cases you´re allready "fucked". But then again, aren´t we all...

 

h

[MIchael80]

Hi Dawei!

 

since this is a forum i would need to use words to desribe experience......this forum will not work with silent transmission.

 

there is also nothing bad with mind and words.....only when we are still bound to them, after unbounding they are just tools for certain things......like using words to describe something

Edited February 3, 2017 by MIchael80

[dawei]

Hi Dawei!

 

since this is a forum i would need to use words to desribe experience......this forum will not work with silent transmission.

 

You should join us at another site where we use silent transmission , but we also uses words at times  

 

 

there is also nothing bad with mind and words.....only when we are still bound to them, after unbounding they are just tools for certain things......like using words to describe something

 

Yes.. that was really my point but you took more time to explain it clearer  

[Rara]

Karma is what it is, but it is not necessarily due to one's own actions or transgressions against Universal Law. All I know is that I have suffered a great deal as a result of the Karma I have taken on in this lifetime, but I am not trying to escape from it. I asked how to transform this Karma.

You obviously have a very limited idea about the way the Law of Karma functions. It is Karma from past lives or Karma one has agreed to bear for others that I am talking about. This is also what manifests as pain, suffering and other hindrances in the present, not only what one is doing or thinking or saying in the present moment. If it were as easy as 'doing the dishes' as you say, or 'chopping wood' as someone else quoted me, then why would I have needed to start this thread? It's easy to be smug when one is not suffering and when one lacks the compassion to understand the suffering of others and the desire to help them in compassionate selfless service.

I apologise if that's how it came across - but my intention was sincere. I am well versed in karmic law/reincarnation etc from my time with (Kadampa) Buddhists and various other readings etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, I too have "suffered" greatly and that's what led me there in the first place. Trying to find answers, and trying to learn why these things were happening to me.

 

You started this thread because something clearly isn't working, right? For me, delving deeper into these things made things worse. I threw karma against the wall, "changed" (you did say transform - I said change) my methods in daily life and found the answer was more simple than I wanted it to be.

 

But it worked. You can do the dishes or chop wood - these are merely metaphors. And who says it's easy? Such mastery of this practice, I am nowhere near! But this is the base of Taoist practice ... lose yourself in this simplicity and problems will fade away.

 

A Taoist will see karma as a burden that is not necessary. To put down the burden would be the way to change it. But you don't have to do this, it's your choice to take alternate advice of course! I just have to say that the method worked for me, was less stressful and confusing and wish for the same relief for you.

 

All the best with it either way.

[damdao]

Perhaps this could help. There is more in youtube.

www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/liaofan.pdf

[[email protected]]

A pure karma concept as I understand is not regarded in Taoism. It's main target is to develop a body and mind in this current life regardless on what a practitioner has brought with him from his past.

[Taomeow]

All of taoism is a way to overcome what the non-taoist word "karma" stands for, even if its (taoism's) origin won't have much to do with definitions for things that are not definitions and didn't designate a term to the phenomenon.  Taoists have never been big on definitions that require other definitions. "The tao that can be told," you know. 

 

The way the classics put it, they didn't use a one-word term, they used an explanatory line instead: "In the human world, tao has been destroyed" (Laozi, Yuandao, Wenzi).  To a taoist, karma is a lot bigger than what you brought with you from the past.  It's what brought you from the past.  And that's what you're dealing with in cultivation, not a clean slate of some people's wishful thinking and/or fertile imagination.  What destroyed tao in the human world -- that's what brought you into "now."  That's what you're up against. 

 

I stand by my earlier assertion that any taoist art-science-practice addresses "karma."  If it's taoist, it's about fixing things you didn't break, plus things you broke, plus things in you that have been broken, and that's what mends things around you that have been broken.  Taoists don't fix anything less than the whole world when they improve their posture and consequently their and consequently everybody else's qi flow with good gong fu.  It won't make a big dent.  But it's a dent.  And you will make more if you cultivate the taoist way.  And there's no way you can cultivate yourself the taoist way and avoid benefiting the universe. 

 

That's taoist karma for you.  I'm pissed to have to be part of it, and proud to be part of it.  

Edited February 6, 2017 by Taomeow