Yangshen perspectives in traditional Schools

[Ormus]

Dear Seeker,

 

I must say you are wrong because classics and Masters say othervise.I think problem is because you try to understand Nei Dan from the position of Mahayana Buddhism which wrongly understand emptyness and void.

 

Ormus

[dawei]

Dear Seeker,

 

I must say you are wrong because classics and Masters say othervise.I think problem is because you try to understand Nei Dan from the position of Mahayana Buddhism which wrongly understand emptyness and void.

 

Ormus

 

it is not really about who is right or wrong but what is the perspective that someone is speaking from.

 

If one talks from classics and masters of neidan, they are talking practices and paths of reversal to Dao.

 

What SoH talks about is NOT that path... it is more direct.   A few here have this experience.

 

If one doesn't have the experience of a particular path, then they often cannot understand nor grasp that teaching.   It doesn't mean our lack of experience in another practice/path makes someone else wrong

[Ormus]

But I must say that Nei Dan is one and  this is the path.There are no my or your Nei Dan.

 

Ormus

Edited January 5, 2017 by Ormus

[dawei]

But I must say that Nei Dan is one and  this is the path.There are no my or your Nei Dan.

 

Ormus

 

I think your making an interesting point to discuss but I feel I am contributing towards moving away from the topic of Yangshen...

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[LaoZiDao]

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_46_ryj.html

have you confirmed this by checking the original scripture, And not the translation or interpretation on this website?

 

Curious if you have it handy would like to see.

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[awaken]

Not to derail the thread, but awaken, when you say 'middle mai' are you talking about chong mai, the extrodinary vessel connecting huiyin and bahui?

 

thnx,

 

8)

 

 

. Sorry, I am not sure what is Chong Mai.

 

 

 

To make sure you can get the right words, I write the Chinese words. Middle Mai is 中脈.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Of course he can't. The only thing he can do is pull strings of your imagination. The only school that can give you Yang Shen teachers are initiatory schools like Xian Tian Xiao Yao Pai or Xian Tian buddhist-related practices, other then that you forget. 

 

Please notice your message. Probably we will return to it later.

 

If you are good practitioner and cultivator you know and feel (for example from effaling video) yang energy. If you opened third eye you will see yang spirits.

 

Young yangshen is also called Dao fetus. You can not see Dao with any of your... let it be 3 eyes. And if you see any spirits it are yin spirits (ghosts). They exist in a large number and can take any form including Laozi, immortals and so on. And by the way they take such forms not without a reason !

 

If you think you are able to perceive invisible yangshen / Dao - it is easy to check. Where is Dao (life source) inside of you? How do you distinguish it from post-heaven qi? How much yuanqi do you have remaining?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[johndoe2012]

Saying you have to lookup the truth in a book or get it from a teacher is false and undermining the whole cultivation scene.

 

You are the truth and what you are looking for. It is not something that exists some day in the future. That's the mind projecting "you" into the future.

 

And when you get to the "future" the mind will project "the results" into the future. This is how the mind functions.

Edited January 6, 2017 by johndoe2012

[damdao]

 

xing = qian => primordial yang

ming = kun => primordial yin

 

 

 

Perhaps this is related to it, perhaps not.

Sun Simiao (581-682) said:

 

氣爲神母神爲氣子神氣若俱長生不死

 

https://www.kanripo.org/text/KR5c0231/000

 

And Livia Kohn translates it as:

 

..."energy is the mother of the spirit; spirit is the son of energy. Only when energy and spirit are together can you live long and not die."

 

 

Taoist experience, p. 320

[damdao]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I have a question about WuLiu Pai theory, which is directly connected with yang shen:

 

Your school considers xing to be yin and ming to be yang:

http://www.all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

 

But in diverse classic taoist scriptures and taoist traditions,

it seems to be the other way around:

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_46_ryj.html

xing = qian => primordial yang

ming = kun => primordial yin

 

Can you please explain why there is this difference of interpretation?

 

kind regards,

 

Wells

 

It seems that text quoted is Pregadio's comment and that Wang Jie does not say it directly.

He seems to opose belly and head and not belly and heart so to say.

[Astral Monk]

. Sorry, I am not sure what is Chong Mai.

 

 

 

To make sure you can get the right words, I write the Chinese words. Middle Mai is 中脈.

 

Du mai, ren mai, chong mai...3 mai running up\down torso...chong mai known as 'thrusting vessel'. There is also dai mai (belt vessel) and bao mai (wrapper vessel) that wrap horizontally around torso.

 

8)

[dawei]

. Sorry, I am not sure what is Chong Mai.

 

 

 

To make sure you can get the right words, I write the Chinese words. Middle Mai is 中脈.

 

Penetrating Vessel (Chong Mai) - 衝脈 [chōng mài]

[Astral Monk]

Penetrating Vessel (Chong Mai) - 衝脈 [chōng mài]

 

I notice in Tom Bisio's Bagua Neigong book he uses a character similar to what awaken has here for chong. Looking it up on translate seems to mean 'in' as inside, the middle of something. 中

 

So I guess this is what awaken is speaking about.

 

8)

Edited January 6, 2017 by Astral Monk

[dawei]

I notice in Tom Bisio's Bagua Neigong book he uses a character similar to what awaken has here for chong. Looking it up on translate seems to mean 'in' as inside, the middle of something. 中

 

So I guess this is what awaken is speaking about.

 

8)

 

Ok... here is how I resolve our posts:   Zhong Mai vs Chong Mai.   the former I learned as the "Taiji Pole"... the latter,  one of the 8 extraordinary vessels:

 

 

http://www.qigong.net.nz/channels

 

 

Regarding the "central-median channel" [known as Sushumna in Indian Yoga - O.A.], there are no references to it in the ancient [Chinese] scriptures teaching of energy channels. However, during my Qigong practice and experiments with acupuncture, by means of internal vision I could see the channel leading from Bai Hui point down to Hui Yin point, forming straight line through the trunk.

At the beginner's stage of Qigong practice this channel is very thin and hardly seen at all. However with some improvement in practice it becomes wider and looks like a transparent column of red light. In ordinary people, the "central-median channel" exists as a dashed line coming through the internal organs."

 

Another Link on TDB:     Taiji Pole/Chong Mai

 

 

Note:  the thread will show why the Taiji Pole is not the Chong Mai vessel...

[dawei]

It seems that text quoted is Pregadio's comment and that Wang Jie does not say it directly.

He seems to opose belly and head and not belly and heart so to say.

 

this is not really an answer... you could of provided the chinese and then translated and shown how Pregadio is backwards.

 

Or Wells could maybe point it out like this:

 

1. The tripod is Qian ☰ and is one's Nature (xing). The furnace is Kun ☷ and is one's Existence (ming). 

 

2. Heaven and Earth are Qian and Kun

 

So, is Heaven = Yin or Yang?   Earth = Yin or Yang?

 

If one chooses this association (among a million), then it is easy to state: 

 

If Heaven is Yin:

 

xing = qian => YIN

 

ming = kun => YANG

 

If Heaven is Yang:

 

xing = qian => YANG

 

ming = kun => YIN

 

---

 

The problem is that everyone is using associations to get from A to C...

 

The bigger solution to the discrepancy is, to me, based on whether you are following the Northern or Southern Lineages.

 

One can find traditions and lineages treating this issue either way (Xing as Yin or Yang; Ming as Yin or Yang).

 

if one follows Xing = Yin, like WLP, then this likely because they follow the Southern Lineage... more specifically:

 

http://taolainenperinne.blogspot.com/2014/09/early-literary-sources-of-daoist.html

 

Two main branches developed from the original lineage. The first is Pure Cultivation (Qingxiu) branch. The form of cultivation employed by this branch entailed individual practices to join the complementary principles within the human being and transmute them into the inner elixir. The second line of transmission within Nanzong is the so-called Joint Cultivation (Shuangxiu) or Yin-Yang branch. It is linked to a tantric interpretation of the practice of joint cultivation of inner nature and vital force (xing and ming), yin and yang. While the goal is the same as that of the Pure Cultivation branch, the initial stage of the practice—the union of yin and yang—requires a partner. (Ibid: 761)

 

The Nanzong practices can be summed up in the phrase xianming houxing (”first the vital force, then the inner nature”). It lies emphasis first on the practice of increasing the vital force through methods of self-cultivation, and then on meditation to achieve enlightenment. This is the same system as found in the Zhong-Lü texts, which the neidan practices of Nanzong follow to some extent, although their sequence differs according to individual branches and masters. (Ibid: 761–762)

 

While that doesn't explicitly show the association, it is showing that there is a specific teaching... with that teaching, they want to say:  Xing = Yin and Ming = Yang.

 

Now, in the past on TDB, the only explanation I remember is because of 'ghosts' as YIN that go to the earth (Xing) and 'spirits' as YANG that goes to heaven (Ming).  

 

So as I asked above... Heaven is considered YANG here...

 

Seems to me, it just depends on the Lineage and School...

 

 

Other Reading:  Beizong and Nanzong:  The Northern and Southern Lineages of Neidan

 

 

Although that link doesn't really spell out associations, it shows opposite emphasis on neidan as an FYI.

[awaken]

Yes

 

Zhong Mai is 中脈

 

Both ren du and Zhong Mai are open, then we can get into the emptiness.

 

The Dan tian system in Zhong Mai has the different way, compare to in the system in ren du.

[damdao]

this is not really an answer... you could of provided the chinese and then translated and shown how Pregadio is backwards.

 

(...)

 

I know, but I need a little time in order to scan the book, select the pertinent paragraphs, and provide the chinese text included in Pregadio translation.

Perhaps after this work is done the text quoted by Wells stands ok, so I will need a little time in order to peruse the source.

Tomorrow, if it fits the thread I will be able to post something.

But if someone can do it before, it's ok.

[damdao]

(...)

 

Seems to me, it just depends on the Lineage and School...

 

(...)

 

I was thinking about dates too.

Because of that I provided a quote from Sun Simiao. 

In different periods different classifications experience changes, so perhaps this one follow that pattern.

But lineage explanation seems ok.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I have a question about WuLiu Pai theory, which is directly connected with yang shen:

 

Your school considers xing to be yin and ming to be yang:

http://www.all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

 

But in diverse classic taoist scriptures and taoist traditions,

it seems to be the other way around:

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_46_ryj.html

xing = qian => primordial yang

ming = kun => primordial yin

 

Can you please explain why there is this difference of interpretation?

 

kind regards,

 

Wells

 

In xiantian state it is like this. But ordinary human is in houtian state, and the cultivation process is designed for him. That is why in later-heaven bagua sequence Qian is in the bottom and Kun is in the top. 

 

Saying you have to lookup the truth in a book or get it from a teacher is false and undermining the whole cultivation scene.

 

You are the truth and what you are looking for. It is not something that exists some day in the future. That's the mind projecting "you" into the future.

 

And when you get to the "future" the mind will project "the results" into the future. This is how the mind functions.

 

In case you a right - words of famous Taoist immortals Lui Dongbin, Zhang Boduan and other famous patriarchs - are all "false and undermining the whole cultivation scene."

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[EmeraldHead]

On ‎06‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 11:34 AM, A.A.Khokhlov said:

Where is Dao (life source) inside of you

its you, emits from you and your yi

[exorcist_1699]

On 1/5/2017 at 2:23 AM, Astral Monk said:

... Whereas a yang shen is the opposite--being able to manifest in a solid seemingly physical capacity to be seen and interacted with by physical beings in the world.

 

The question is whether consciousness 'goes into' a yang shen. Is it a new vehicle that a person can move into leaving the origin body behind? Astral body seems like an extension of consciousness, a way to reach outside our scope, but still connected (and these apparently fade after original body dies). ...

 

 

 

Yang Shen ( "陽神" ) is nourished from our body,  very different from Yuan ("元", meta or original ) Shen  which is a trinity of  primordial qi ,jing and shen without personal character , yet existing everywhere . Yang Shen is a deliberate effort of an individual  to  'refine'   his  Yuan qi , hidden somewhere around his abdomen  , into an everlasting spiritual entity.  Since it involves a deliberate effort, it means some kind of consciousness/mind  is  applied, for example,  paying attention to people's dantian ;  since it involves using  jing  and qi to " refine",  not solely dependent on our mind power,  it is free of  the shortcomings  a yin-typed / ghostly mind  . Because of these, its outcome , a Super Consciousness nourished with jing and qi , is something not  without personal characters :  Immortal Lu , from the Tang Dynasty, nowadays still  appears repeatedly   to  us as  an arrogant and persistent mid-30  looking guy  who claims only a small group of people can be rescued *  ; on the other hand, the occasional emergence of  Immortal Zhang San-feng  as a big-eyed guy in  his sloppy costume still startled lot of people...

 

In Taoist cultivation, you do not need to die , as followers of other religions do  , in order to know   whether your spirit can last  forever / live outside of your body / meet your God or gods .Taoist proof of  the existence of Yang Shen is not that passive .

 

Since Yang Shen is  also a trinity of Yang jing, qi  and shen , so the gradual refinement of  it will give us some proofs along the way : sick-proof of  our body,  aging-proof of  our face and skin,  appearance of a  bean-like  qi-substance  somewhere under our navel   similar to a pregnant woman  and  occasional half-detachment of a spirit-body  out  of  our physical body..etc., all  these  touchable , controllable  stuff make Taoist alchemy a practice unique , closest to modern science .

 

* Immortal Lu once said : " 世人認假不認真,  難授長生上品經" ; (" Most people love the fake better than  the real ,hardly  can I teach them the way of a life eternal . ")

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by exorcist_1699