blue eyed snake

the conception of a baby

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thanks!

gives new ideas, even though it's always a struggle for me too plough through your long posts full of words and sentences that I, as a non native speaker, have some trouble to grasp  :P

 

The reason for the exploration on parental dissonance was a direct transmission from the shaman. At least in my case, as I told my story of conception as it was passed down to me, where my mother initially knew she was very fertile and said no, but my father (whom I've never met) did not listen... and she knew immediately when she conceived. At that point she embraced every idea of me, and yet the shaman told me that because initially it was not her intention to conceive, and even asked to not conceive, that this was the reason for our dissonance. Yes, it was exactly what I needed, as I carry some sense of guilt that holds me back based on past life actions I do not wish to have repeated, but the dissonance between us seems to have a huge relation to this very first seed that was planted between us. The very beginnings of things have enormous influences and are the initiation of many patterns that we will face in life. My birth was also very traumatic, as many hospital births could be during that era, and even now. Yet it is important that the birth was not the initiation of the dissonance, but rather a continuation from the seed that had already been planted.

 

Her going on to embrace me I also believe helped to use me as a mechanism to protect her from her own past traumas, by embracing me as her savior, to such an extent that when things were difficult between us, especially in later years, she would deny that I was her son and asked what I'd done with him. Once she asked why I could not have been born a few hours earlier when the astrology would have been a little better. I hold nothing against her, and right now we have a pleasant relationship again. I've always felt nothing but love for her, though at times the dissonance between us has been a very large burden to deal with, as I have not been embraced for who I truly am, but even held back. And yet this fighting to become my true self is also part of my karmic journey, and something I needed for this reincarnation.

 

Karmic lessons and our willingness to work with them, or even draw others into our work with them aside, the shaman's lesson for us was to understand sometimes that this dissonance is not something that is able to be healed unless both parties are willing to do the work. If only one party is willing to do the work and is unable to be clear of the influence from the other, sometimes making a break is the only option. At least until one is able to overcome those negative influences and do one's healing.

 

Much of the rest of my previous post are based on extending this logic. Yes of course there are many reasons for dissonance, but it would appear they can largely be traced back to our karmic needs and those of our parents during conception.

 

The shaman shared that during conception a signal from the merging energies of the parents would be sent out to connect with the spirit who matched their resonance. With in-vitro conception does this signal still exist? Or is it simply weaker? Or is there are larger possibility of non-human spirits to become involved? Obviously conception still works, and there is probably some signal that is created when the egg is fertilized, and it is likely also connected to the energy of the intention to conceive from the parents, however distant. I don't have a clear answer, but it does seem clear that when we take this human process into labs, we are bypassing some natural spiritual mechanisms.

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My son was delivered by emergency c-section after a long brutal night of worry.

 

The hospital set up and our doctor, managed to save my wife's and son's life, but wow, did the entire building feel alien to me, sterile in the bad sense and manufacturedly disconnected, spiritually.  I couldn't wait to get us all out of that place.  Unnatural. 

 

I followed my son from the OR, to what I can only describe as the 'holding chamber' where they kept all the new borns...  (not a mom in sight)... heat lamps...  unnatural.

 

I stood with him, my hand on the top of his head for about four hours I guess it was.  Not speaking a word, not noticing the passage of time, just staring at him and touching him.  Several times the nurses came up and gently suggested "You could go and get some rest, it's been a long night for you..." 

 

I'd turn and stare at them with this unbridled joy beaming out of me and they'd just turn and walk away.

 

After some hours, I was able to bring him and set him on Mom's chest and they settled in to feeding and resting.  It was then I got in the truck and went straight down the road from the hospital to the beach and just sat their looking out at Mother Ocean and repeatedly thinking/saying 'thank you... thank you... thank you..."

 

The ocean was glass that morning after a long slow rain.   The only ripples, made by three dolphins making their way south along the beach drop.  Two adults and a wee little nipper.  and me, just sobbing and beaming joyful thanks to the all mother ocean life giver to every dang thing on the planet...

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We are borne of a miracle.

 

Our fragile form is a remarkable phenomenon.  

 

Our existence is a blessing.

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Another thought comes to mind. Hospitals and their surgical births with forceps, cutting, c-sections, drugs, etc, all of these things remove some level of what is and has been sacred to birth for a long long time. None of this was ever necessary. Why now?

 

Something else we recognize often, but do not usually connect to this, is how quickly our society has grown into what we call "advanced." The industrial revolution, electricity, internet, cars, marketing, science, cities - all things which have enabled us to disconnect with nature to a greater degree than in the past.

 

I wonder if there is any connection between the karma made in disconnecting from nature, and births which are disconnected from nature. Two of my friend's were c-section births. The elder is such a gentle soul, dislikes conflict, is a peacemaker - and an engineer. The younger needed to be cesarean because the first was, and this is a more down to earth soul for sure, so who knows? Cesarean sections aren't anything new, but their widespread use as a way to schedule births probably is. It does seem they have been used in many cultures as a way of saving the life of the baby when the mother was going to die for a long time, the first successful survival recorded in 1337. Who knows what the karmic ingredients are for such traumas.

 

And now we have in-vitro conceptions, perhaps catering to the souls who lived much of their lives without being intertwined with the outdoors, and don't resonate so well with things that aren't clean and sterile.

 

Who knows...

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slight tangent.

I strongly dislike the immediate prodding, poking, weighing and multiple shots that new born babies get here in modern US hospitals.  Disgraceful really, much of it for the benefit of the immediate doctors.  

 

Much better if they kept the lights down, kept the baby in a warm less stimulated environment instead of treating it like an unwelcome alien.   Maybe one or two things were necessary but most of it could wait, and let peaceful bonding between mother and child happen immediately. 

 

This is really an insurance company driven thing - if it were greedy doctors then lots of visits with fewer shots would be more profitable. Also some of the shots are simply outdated - like the automatic shot to protect against siphilis.

My wife knows the real stuff and something tells me Taomeow could read us all the fine print on this.

 

a good side note

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...

 

Another thing to look at is that in general IVF takes place in an older overall group age of women - so as with all older groups of women giving birth - they have a higher incident of children with behavioral problems as well as physical problems.

 

Similarly - the reason we have a higher infant mortality in the USA than many other countries that are quit poor by comparison has nothing to do with the failure of our medical system - it is because in many countries women in general give birth far younger than we do and younger women simply have less complications - and their children have less physical and behavioral problems.

 

I had never heard about this association between behavioural problems and older mothers, and being an older mother myself I looked into it and found that older mothers actually have children with fewer behaviour problems if current studies are anything to go by, though the risk of chromosomal abnormalities and birth complications does increase.

 

New research has found children born to mothers in their mid-30s and above are less likely to have behavioural problems than those with younger mothers. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-12/children-of-older-mothers-have-fewer-behavioural-problems/5964572

Older mothers are less likely to punish and scold their children while raising them, and that the children have fewer behavioral, social and emotional difficulties, according to a recent study. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170321110352.htm

Also, infant mortality is not linear as you suggest. White women ages 12-24 have higher infant mortality rates as do 40+, with the lowest infant mortality rates occurring for the 25-39 year old group. 

For Black women infant mortality is more linear, with younger mothers having lower infant mortality rates, though infant mortality even for young mothers is more than twice as high as any age white woman. In general these figures reflect the differences in the health of the mothers, not their age. See https://www.terpconnect.umd.edu/~pnc/MaternalAgeInfantMortality.pdf

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I had never heard about this association between behavioural problems and older mothers, and being an older mother myself I looked into it and found that older mothers actually have children with fewer behaviour problems if current studies are anything to go by, though the risk of chromosomal abnormalities and birth complications does increase.

 

New research has found children born to mothers in their mid-30s and above are less likely to have behavioural problems than those with younger mothers. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-12/children-of-older-mothers-have-fewer-behavioural-problems/5964572[/size]

Older mothers are less likely to punish and scold their children while raising them, and that the children have fewer behavioral, social and emotional difficulties, according to a recent study. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170321110352.htm [/size]

​[/size]

Also, infant mortality is not linear as you suggest. White women ages 12-24 have higher infant mortality rates as do 40+, with the lowest infant mortality rates occurring for the 25-39 year old group. [/size]

For Black women infant mortality is more linear, with younger mothers having lower infant mortality rates, though infant mortality even for young mothers is more than twice as high as any age white woman. In general these figures reflect the differences in the health of the mothers, not their age. See https://www.terpconnect.umd.edu/~pnc/MaternalAgeInfantMortality.pdf[/size]

Ages 12-24?

Your figures prove an arguement you have decided to win.

 

My wife and I had a child as older people - what I was relating to has nothing to do with upbringing - I was talking about normal statistical analysis.

 

If you look at average birth health from 18-24 you will find very healthy relationships to the babies health.

Physically and therefore also behaviorally as this effects the overall statistic since those with birth defects / variants often have associated behavior problems.

As women age the statistics for problems simply rise. From 39-45 their is a marked difference, beyond that the difference is very dramatic.

 

 

Now if you want to add in very young girls - ages 12-17 you are adding a group that will also have considerable complications.

 

But if you are comparing countries - which I was - Estonia for example does not have lots of 12 year olds giving birth - they have lots of women statistically younger as a group than the general group in the USA.

 

The general trend in the USA is that fewer teens and early 20 something women are giving birth and increasingly women in the 40+ category are having births. The stats for the 40-50 year olds have dramatic increases in complications.

Edited by Spotless

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There are so many ways to be born into less-than-ideal circumstances.  Premature babies.  Babies by c-section.  Babies who are not breast fed.  Babies whose parents are addicts or impoverished or just emotionally immature or gone awol.  We grow up in lousy schools breathing polluted air and eating toxic food...and yet most of us survive.  Some of us find our way against great odds to places like Daobums where we learn about spiritual practices.  We learn how to breath and how to stand and how to let go of illusions.  

 

It`s all so very bad and yet I can`t help thinking we`re going to be OK. 

Edited by liminal_luke
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Ages 12-24?

Your figures prove an arguement you have decided to win.

 

My wife and I had a child as older people - what I was relating to has nothing to do with upbringing - I was talking about normal statistical analysis.

 

If you look at average birth health from 18-24 you will find very healthy relationships to the babies health.

Physically and therefore also behaviorally as this effects the overall statistic since those with birth defects / variants often have associated behavior problems.

As women age the statistics for problems simply rise. From 39-45 their is a marked difference, beyond that the difference is very dramatic.

 

 

Now if you want to add in very young girls - ages 12-17 you are adding a group that will also have considerable complications.

 

But if you are comparing countries - which I was - Estonia for example does not have lots of 12 year olds giving birth - they have lots of women statistically younger as a group than the general group in the USA.

 

The general trend in the USA is that fewer teens and early 20 something women are giving birth and increasingly women in the 40+ category are having births. The stats for the 40-50 year olds have dramatic increases in complications.

 

 

 

You initially referred to infant mortality. Statistically, infant mortality is higher for  white 18-24 year olds than for 25-39 year olds, no matter how counter-intuitive that might seem to be, but for black mothers statistically you're better off having babies younger. Even at 40 the white mother is still statistically better off than a young black mother.

 

 

 

 

fig2.jpg?w=660&h=480

 

 

 

Another surprising fact - it was surprisingly common to be an older mother in the early 1900's, maybe because there was no reliable birth control.

 

maternal-age-40-11.jpg

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err, were veering OT and entering an discussion that is of little if any use to the OP

 

whatever problems there may arise in different age- levels of mums, to whatever causes this

 

i think this discussion will not lead to  use for the original question. But I do find the several notions brought up here interesting.

my original remark about developmental problems with a correlation to IVF may have attributed to these posts.

last remark about this:

 

for me, a developmental problem means an inborn trait. So, not caused by the way a child is reared.

 

The remark of Spotless about the high stress levels going hand in hand when opting for IVF is useful. It has long been known that psychological stress during pregnancy correlates highly with inborn developmental problems.Regardless of the age of the mum. And, that may well mean that black mums have in genral a higher risk for this, as there circumstances are in general much more stressful/ full of unsafeties. But being European I can't really speak about this.

 

In Western Europe in general children of older mums ( but in the natural curve, so between 35-45) in general have a more balanced rearing than children of young mums ( say between 20-30) Psychologists attribute this to the fact that in general older mums are more balanced about life itself.

 

I would like the posts now to come back to my original question, I see that I'm not able to hide posts anymore, so I will ask you kindly to come back to the OP

 

I wonder what it means on the spiritual level,

for me, the making of a baby is a joining of bodies, energies and preferably spirits. but one way or another, a being not yet physical enters the action and starts to make a connection with father and mother. At that moment the twosome becomes a threesome, some people are aware of this.

 

then the new being sort of attaches itself to the energetic body of the mother to be, and i think that at the moment that the fetus is physically 'sound' this new body stats to enmesh itself with the small physical body. I think that these processes probably are not linear but sort of 'vague' a slow dipping into first the energetical body of the mother and later into the physical. Sort of slowly lowering vibrations, or something....

 

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The being (baby being) is far more aggressive than one might think.

 

While it is not so able to do so much on the physical side (though it is able to effect it considerably) it is very able to affect the mother's thinking and feeling as it settles into a level of transmediumship that develops.

 

One of the key reasons for divorce among couples with new and young children is the strength of these "little" beings to take over and "own" their most key support person. The guy often feels shoved out the door - and in fact that is frequently what happens. Moreover- the woman has often been shoved out the door (of her own life) and it is often replaced with "living for the children".

 

From the perspective of looking at a being in a mother from conception to birth, the being is Very brightly involved from conception - even prior to conception, but upon conception and forward it is literally beaming in womb. These are not vague wispy beings slowly descending from the heavens into the feathers of the embrace of life in the womb - they are actually pretty aggressive - like - real aggressive and tenacious.

 

The adults are far more the group that is descending from the heavenly realms of trance to the concrete wonderful expansive grounding that - they are about to have a child - while they are thinking of names and furniture and logistics - the being has its new room already and it is fully furnished with the feeding tubes in place and growing - it is in the already underway world of We Have A Launch! It is all GO!

 

The being and its support beings along with the couples support and support beings all begin to work together. For a time to the being it is all about its new body - then it begins to establish more of a relationship to its hosts/mothers needs - but it is for the most part - all about "me", not in an identified way but in a completely instinctive and utterly self centered "feed me" "me,me,me,me,me" way.

 

The profundity of the spiritual aspects are all there in any conception - natural or IVF - the extreme excitement at the moment of conception is beyond words but the beings involved are absolutely not uninvolved or in some way only ephemeral shadows with hopeful glimmers in their eyes. In the natural instance their is a marked difference in the setting and the radical excitement of all those involved but the magic is not lost in a "procedure" - it is very different and transference is less heated - but overall the being is no less enthusiastic and no less of a tyrant of sorts.

Edited by Spotless
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...

 

I wonder what it means on the spiritual level,

for me, the making of a baby is a joining of bodies, energies and preferably spirits. but one way or another, a being not yet physical enters the action and starts to make a connection with father and mother. At that moment the twosome becomes a threesome, some people are aware of this.

 

then the new being sort of attaches itself to the energetic body of the mother to be, and i think that at the moment that the fetus is physically 'sound' this new body stats to enmesh itself with the small physical body. I think that these processes probably are not linear but sort of 'vague' a slow dipping into first the energetical body of the mother and later into the physical. Sort of slowly lowering vibrations, or something....

A spiritual friend of mine had a very powerful experience with both the conception of his daughter and also contact during the pregnancy. Also, at about 6 months of the pregnancy, his unborn child gave him shaktipat that caused a huge opening with many visions.

 

Now five, she is energetically super powerful and open. Also, very impressive astral type vision.

 

In this case, my friend is convinced that the child picked the parents, not the other way around...

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The child definitely picks the setting/parents but the parent(s) give consent. The being will have extensive counseling on its choice among its supporters. In my experience I remember one setting in which I was at a large table and we all sat around it discussing the possible choice - there was a debate as to the wisdom in it, certain "problems" that would occur, those who volunteered to see me through them and the subject of a "fit" with the parents.

 

It was obvious from this experience that considerable prior discussion had taken place - possibly not about this particular set of parents but about the general setting.

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In the case of my son - I spent many months both before and after his birth meditating 3-6 hours every day in order to communicate with him, look at him and look at karmic connections. I also looked at agreements, set agreements and went over the whole idea of not taking over my wife. As it turned out we had many lifetimes together as close friends (fought lots of battles together) - he is a very robust and bright child.

 

If things had not been acceptable it would have been possible to find agreement with another being.

And this is actually the case several years. In some cultures it is said to be up to around the age of 7.

Edited by Spotless
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The being (baby being) is far more aggressive than one might think.

 

While it is not so able to do so much on the physical side (though it is able to effect it considerably) it is very able to affect the mother's thinking and feeling as it settles into a level of transmediumship that develops.

 

One of the key reasons for divorce among couples with new and young children is the strength of these "little" beings to take over and "own" their most key support person. The guy often feels shoved out the door - and in fact that is frequently what happens. Moreover- the woman has often been shoved out the door (of her own life) and it is often replaced with "living for the children".

 

overall the being is no less enthusiastic and no less of a tyrant of sorts.

In the case of my son - I spent many months both before and after his birth meditating 3-6 hours every day in order to communicate with him, look at him and look at karmic connections. I also looked at agreements, set agreements and went over the whole idea of not taking over my wife. As it turned out we had many lifetimes together as close friends (fought lots of battles together) - he is a very robust and bright child.

So IOW, sounds like your son is a reincarnated frenemy who has been far more aggressive than you'd initially bargained for before, taken your friendship for granted and then pwned you, and probably stole your wife too on top of that. "No less of a tyrant in the end."

 

In effect, you were already competing with your own son out of fear of being usurped before he was even born - like Kronos & Zeus.

Gaia and Ouranos warned Kronos that one of his children would eventually overthrow him and become the foremost Immortal. To prevent that possibility, Kronos decided that he would swallow any children that Rheia bore.

Kronos did not suspect that an immortal child was being reared on Crete and he certainly didn't suspect that he had a child growing to manhood who would eventually confront him and challenge his authority.

Which you then generically projected onto all babies...

 

Well given this karmic "lose your life, lose your wife" pattern, of course you guys were bound to reincarnate together again! But this time around, you were so paranoid of the same behavior that you actually spent many, many hours beforehand setting up a prenatal "prenup" with him, lol. (Seriously, who else does that??? :blink:) Which of course I'm sure he'll honor and not reneg on as time passes by, just like in every lifetime before... :D;)

Edited by gendao

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So IOW, sounds like your son is a reincarnated frenemy who has been far more aggressive than you'd initially bargained for before, taken your friendship for granted and then pwned you, and probably stole your wife too on top of that. "No less of a tyrant in the end."

In effect, you were already competing with your own son out of fear of being usurped before he was even born - like Kronos & Zeus.Which you then generically projected onto all babies...

Well given this karmic "lose your life, lose your wife" pattern, of course you guys were bound to reincarnate together again! But this time around, you were so paranoid of the same behavior that you actually spent many, many hours beforehand setting up a prenatal "prenup" with him, lol. (Seriously, who else does that??? :blink:) Which of course I'm sure he'll honor and not reneg on as time passes by, just like in every lifetime before... :D;)

Quite an imagination - and a very good example of spiritual competition.

Try breathing deep before allowing reactive mind to loop out in splats.

 

This is also why one might want to employ the "ignore" feature found in settings ( it allows participants here to choose not to view certain posters that they no longer wish to view - at least not until that person is given the boot or eases up inside themselves).

Edited by Spotless

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Babies are awesome! It would be nice to pick our cards but we need to play the hand we are dealt. 

 

Very young children are true masters.  

 

The true sage is child like, playful, non judgmental all the greatest qualities of being human. T

 

Love making and conception should be regarded as a divine ritual.

Edited by Wu Ming Jen
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On 4/22/2017 at 3:59 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Babies are awesome!

 

Hi Wu Ming Jen,

 

You bet - just look into their eyes and I reach for the sky!

 

On 4/22/2017 at 3:59 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

It would be nice to pick our cards but we need to play the hand we are dealt.

 

Any baby is nice to me.

 

On 4/22/2017 at 3:59 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Very young children are true masters.

 

Yes - when they are still a part of true Nature.

 

On 4/22/2017 at 3:59 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

The true sage is child like, playful, non judgmental all the greatest qualities of being human. T

 

I don't know why you have 'T' at the end of the sentence.

Can I guess? Assume OK - so here goes:

 

(a) A true sage ... child like ... qualities of being human  - all to a T.

(b) True begins with T.

(c) Toddlers are awesome to a T.

(d) T ...

 

On 4/22/2017 at 3:59 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Love making and conception should be regarded as a divine ritual

 

But of course!

 

But what about - rape, abortion, infanticide, child slavery...? I am touching base with reality.

 

A child-like weekend.

 

- LimA

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On 4/16/2017 at 10:51 PM, silent thunder said:

I'm too small to say if a child from a dish is as lovable as one from the dish of the mother

for really, the petry dish, how is it not from the mother (dao)?

 

Hi Creighton,

 

It is the mother who dish out the egg.

 

On 4/16/2017 at 10:51 PM, silent thunder said:

I'm far more potent when I release such things

and I seem to enjoy this potency

 

You bet. I too enjoy my potency endowed by Nature. O my creativity with procreation!

 

On 4/16/2017 at 10:51 PM, silent thunder said:

so let things manifest in whatever manner they do

and my response is my responsibility

 

But of course. I am the responsible father of my children.

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

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On 10/26/2016 at 10:20 AM, thelerner said:

Does spiritual sex lead to spiritual kids??

 

Hi thelerner,

 

Yes.

 

- LimA

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4 minutes ago, Limahong said:
On 10/26/2016 at 10:20 AM, thelerner said:

Does spiritual sex lead to spiritual kids??

 

Hi thelerner,

 

Yes.

 

- LimA

 

Hi All

 

Any thoughts to the contrary? If so, why?

 

- LimA

 

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Unbalance is just a challenge for more balance. Some will benefit other not so much...

9 months before my mother introduced me inside her vagina from a frozen sperm sample

8 years after I started practicing meditation by myself.

7 years after I discovered daoism

6 years after I don't know

but right now, I feel great xD

 

(and I certainly not feel sorry !)

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14 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

Unbalance is just a challenge for more balance. Some will benefit other not so much...

 

Hi CloudHands,

 

A beautiful personal response. Perhaps your mum is spiritual in her decision when it came to balancing the unbalance?

Again a beautiful answer. Thank you.

 

- LimA

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On 4/22/2017 at 3:59 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Love making and conception should be regarded as a divine ritual.

 

Hi Wu Ming Jen,

 

Does spiritual sex lead to spiritual kids? - thelerner asked.

 

- LimA

 

 

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