Is rigpa really that simple?

[ralis]

All boundaries are relative, but such is noticed in as Norbu describes in the relative integration of ones body (local) energy with outside (universal) energy. At a practical level, it is about "being" (or being with) broader aspects of percieved reality. Like going from being a character in a video game, to learning the cheat codes, to realizing it is just a game, to then being the game itself.

 

The Dharmakaya is bubble that supports the game. The sambhogkaya is the fun stuff (percieved reality) inside the game. The Nirmankaya is the (knowing) player of the game.

 

Have you been on a Norbu retreat?

[ralis]

All boundaries are relative, but such is noticed in as Norbu describes in the relative integration of ones body (local) energy with outside (universal) energy. At a practical level, it is about "being" (or being with) broader aspects of percieved reality. Like going from being a character in a video game, to learning the cheat codes, to realizing it is just a game, to then being the game itself.

 

The Dharmakaya is bubble that supports the game. The sambhogkaya is the fun stuff (percieved reality) inside the game. The Nirmankaya is the (knowing) player of the game.

 

Being or 'to be' is self referencing which is an error. That is not to say there is 'no self', but no separate self.

[Jeff]

Being or 'to be' is self referencing which is an error. That is not to say there is 'no self', but no separate self.

 

 

With that response, I guess you do not get (or like) my analogy...

 

Best wishes. 

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

You use the word "grasping" in every second sentence.

Well, you grasp when you are in an emotional state of mind,

for example when you enjoy bliss!

I would think about that.

 

Yes, but there is also the emotional state of mind which you do not grasp and simply let dissolve.

I think you are confusing the bliss of the samadhi of the one taste, or the enjoyment of samboghakaya with a common emotion. Have you never read about THE GREAT BLISS?

 

Is not the primordial state blissful? Do you think that that bliss is just an impure emotion?

 

I don't like quoting C N Norbu because his translators leave me suspect, but, this is from the Supreme Source. -Norbu

Bodhicitta beyond arising and ceasing,

Is vision that appears even though it has no self nature.

Bodhicitta beyond meditation

Is the perfect conduct of the yogin who rests in bliss!

 

 

From The Practice of Dzogchen - John Myrdhin Reynolds:

Furthermore, there arose from within the interior of his mind the bliss of pristine awareness without thoughts and he cut off the stream of distinguishing characteristics associated with subject and object. [38] And because of that, there arose for him without interruption the Clear Light, which is the spontaneously perfected Base (in terms of Thodgal visions). The distinctive characteristics of the three: the sounds, the lights, and the rays, were liberated into their own original condition on the Path. And as the Fruit, at the ultimate stage (in the development of vision) the Trikaya became visibly manifest to him.

[39] Thereby the Great Bliss remained in its own original condition of the Dharmakaya and he came to behold the face of his own meditation deity, the Yidam Tsochok (gtso-mchog), whereupon the Generation Process and the Perfection Process, all emanating and reabsorbing, were liberated into their own original condition. In consequence, immeasurable numbers of liberations of experience and understanding were born in his mind. [40]

 

Are you saying that the bliss referred to here is just an emotion being grasped? I think that is not the case. Edited June 30, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

I think that the Natural State is the ordinary basic awareness which is the base of every perception.

 

What we think of the natural state, any of us, is not it.

If we want to describe it with words we need to describe three inseparable aspects - space, clarity, and warmth.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

"Impure" emotion? All emotions are the same from the point of the Natural State, there is no "impure".

Basic dzogchen 101. So I see that you surely don't have the dzogchen view.

 

 

From Lonchengpa's "the Practice of Dzogchen"

In their true meaning, all things, the world and beings, which are the impure perceptions of the deluded mind, and the triple gem, which are the pure perceptions, are nonexistent like a dream.

Wells, get with the program.

[ralis]

From Lonchengpa's "the Practice of Dzogchen"

 

Wells, get with the program.

 

 

In their true meaning, all things, the world and beings, which are the impure perceptions of the deluded mind, and the triple gem, which are the pure perceptions, are nonexistent like a dream.

 

 

What does that really mean? As I have stated previously, words are nothing more than abstractions. The quote is based on rigid Aristotelian logic which creates opposite extreme views in the mind while leaving out other possibilities. No room for creative thinking. Reductionist thinking at best.

Edited June 30, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

Spiritual training is like training for every other purpose.

The results show if we understand the training principles correctly.

So I think that my understanding of the Natural state is right on.

 

 

 

Do you care to elaborate on that?

 

I will disagree - spiritual training has unique characteristics that are unlike training in other realms, at least for me.

We are all different and I don't mean to negate your experience. 

 

I'm happy to expand on the three characteristics.

The Bönpo teachings are what I'm most familiar with regarding the natural state.

They describe three aspects of the natural state. One cannot adequately describe the natural state without incorporating all three. The Nyingmapas take a similar approach although IME the Bönpos perhaps emphasize the warmth aspect a bit more. These aspects are not independent of one another, they are said to be inseparable, and yet it is useful to look at each separately for the purpose of deeper understanding and recognition.

 

The first characteristic of the natural state is that it is like space - the descriptive terms used to show that it is like space are things like empty, unborn, clear, undying, indestructible, without a center, without boundary, unstained, and so forth. If one does not incorporate this feeling of "like space" in one's understanding of the natural state then the understanding is incomplete. Useful practices for recognizing and stabilizing the state are practices that open up a feeling of space inside like tsa lung, trul khor, and the 9 breathings of purification. It is important to know that understanding the natural state must go beyond the intellect. One must feel the emptiness and spaciousness. 

 

The second characteristic is that it is illuminated - the terms used in this regard are knowing, awareness, presence, light, clarity, and this is the aspect you are describing in your earlier post. Many translators hesitate to use the word awareness for this because awareness is so strongly linked to the sensory functions and this fundamental awareness you mention (rigpa) is not, it is independent of sensory stimulus or receptor. It is independent of object or subject. It is an important aspect of the natural state but to say it IS the natural state is inaccurate and incomplete. This characteristic is particularly well displayed in the sleep yoga practices. If one has the experience of the sleep of clear light that illumination is very acutely experienced as it contrasts brilliantly with the unbounded space with which it is inseparable and within which it rests. As always, hard to put into words. A very good method to help us recognize this aspect is zhine with an object. The Bönpos traditionally use the Tibetan letter A:

 

.

 

The third characteristic is that it is great bliss - the terms used for this aspect are things like warmth, love, union, connection, joy, unconditional, and so forth. A common error is to think that this refers solely to an overwhelming feeling of immense bliss or happiness. While that certainly can occur, that is simply one way in which we may experience it. It can also be subtle, such as the feeling you get when you look someone in the eye and there is that connection, that knowing - I am alive, you are alive, we see each other, we are connected, there is something flowing between us. There is something there that cannot be put into words. This characteristic also has to do with how our connection with the natural state manifests. When we recognize that state and develop some stability, there is a spontaneous and natural feeling of warmth for oneself, for others, a connection to life, and this manifests as kind and loving speech and activity. 

 

I think that's enough. I hope that's useful. If not, please disregard it.

[steve]

PS - if you have interest in cultivating a deeper relationship with the natural state there are no better exercises, IMO, than the three doors practices as taught by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. I have links to teachings on that subject in my PPF.

[ralis]

What I see here from the staunch Buddhist's is a method of communicating that Gregory Bateson termed, 'the double bind'. Whoever challenges Buddhist dogma is always wrong no matter the response. Every answer is always wrong. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. That is unfortunate!

 

I see no difference between this and fundamentalist bible thumpers.

 

http://www.psychotherapy.com.au/fileadmin/site_files/pdfs/TheDoubleBindTheory.pdf

[steve]

My point is there is no beginning or end. If there were, there would be clear boundaries, but those boundaries appear to not exist.

 

I think that point is valid from the absolute perspective.

From the relative perspective, I clearly experience a local and limited mind with both beginning and end.

That mind is a filter for all of our experience, including our experience of the natural state in this life.

I think that is what Jeff was referring to.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Lol, what does he mean here with "pure" and "impure" in your opinion?

Here is a quote from your guru Jax's page.

It is a poor quote because there is no reference to the book from where the quote was pulled.

But (if you want to believe it, and believe that Jax did not alter it ) here is Namdak himself speaking about the bliss of rigpa.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/45823743c01500016d12f675f057520f?AccessKeyId=CD4C5C328372BACD4084&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

From Dzogchen Master, Lopon Tenzin Namdak:

 

"Just remaining continuously in a bright sense of presence without grasping at anything will bring us a sense of inexpressible bliss. We still continue to see all of the mountains, lakes, trees, houses, people, and so on , that exist in the world, but we will not be distracted by anything that we see or hear. We remain in a sense of presence (Rigpa) that is bright and clear, just like a mirror that reflects all of these same things in the world, but is not affected or changed by what it reflects. We become like that mirror. All of them are merely reflections and they make no changes or modifications to our Natural State

 

 

Here is another definition of pure and impure for you..

 

From Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings - Tenzin Namdak

These visions are not always stable. When they dissolve spontaneously, it may be a sign that we are ready to realize the Rainbow Body. Visions have two alternative qualities: pure and impure. At the final stage, all of our visions are pure. But at the moment our normal everyday life vision is impure. There are two doors that must be opened: the pure and the impure. Inside them there are four doors apiece, making a total of eight doors. This is according to what kind of visions come.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[RigdzinTrinley]

I think that the Natural State is the ordinary basic awareness which is the base of every perception.

Bliss, no matter how you turn it, is a perception.

"Impure" emotion? All emotions are the same from the point of the Natural State, there is no "impure".

Basic dzogchen 101. So I see that you surely don't have the dzogchen view.

 

I think that you have kind of a hedonist fixation to want to enjoy bliss

under the cover to interpret that drive as kind of spiritual.

But I don't see any connection to legit dzogchen practice here.

 

There is a lot of confusion and many dzogchen gurus and translations don't help with that,

on the contrary.

For example "bodhicitta" is in fact just the Natural State, but gurus translate it as "compassion"

and all the little buddhists are fixated to develop "compassion".

This surely makes people better controllable...

 

I have not researched it, but who knows what the deal is with translating whatever with the word "bliss"...

Possibly they try to get the hedonists, lol.

If I remember the hints in a post of RigdzinTrinley correctly,

he believes that the rainbow body / buddha guys and gals

all end up in permanent ecstatic bliss

in one gigantic neverending gangbang with deities on the buddhafields!

LOL!

Must be the pictorial portrayals of the gods and their so-called consorts that can lead people to such an assumption...

I probably said just this brother....

 

and probably in these terms

 

anyway bde ba chen po or great bliss has the same meaning as rang rig (self cognizing prisitne awareness), rigpa, ye she chen po (great primordial wisdom), Union etc.

 

it is not Bliss in the sense of any of the three nyams of bliss (body, nadi), clarity (speech/wind energy), non-thought (mind, bindu)

 

it points to the subjective side of the Union of f.e.: primordial wisdom/Dharmadatu or awareness/emptiness

 

as they are a union of course they are not two sides - the language emphasis the subjective side though in order to point something out to the practicioner

 

I will now go back and enjoy corpulating with deities BYEEEE and good luck to you on your path

[RigdzinTrinley]

Oh and Wells,

 

please do not put words into my mouth, and show a little litte little bit of respect to your fellow practicioners - we are not all idiots with inferior understanding compared to your most exaltet vision of reality

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[RigdzinTrinley]

Well, I said "If I remember the hints in a post of RigdzinTrinley correctly",

with the following post of you in the back of my head:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/17655-rough-sex-and-the-connection-to-the-good-guys-vs-bad-boy-argument/page-3#entry675219

 

 

I surely misunderstood it and remembered this sentence out of context, care to elaborate what you meant there?

 

Lol, possibly I should stop posting here at all in the near future and follow Brian into retirement from thedaobums.

I think the post was not part of a traditional buddhist tantra discussion, whats the threads title? "rough sex blabla...the bad guy vs good guy...." so I would say far out of context, but as you like to qoute that hear, what to do? your choice

 

also if ou read that one more time, I didn't mention rigpa in that post, nor buddhist deities, nor any buddhist practice... I talked about wilhelm reich and some other new age tantra fufu

 

if you think that is my understanding and practice of the view - I am sorry but you misunderstand a thing or two about me

 

anyway I will leave this thread because these kinds of discussion bore me - I should listen to myself and not engage in them (it is always the same blabla), but brother - as you mentioned my name and explained my understanding of "Great Bliss" for me I thought I should at least say something

 

what I said about respecting your fellow practicioners still stands as far as I am concerned

 

anyway enjoy the sound of your own voice - I go to the back seats and marvel at the level of discourse

[Tibetan_Ice]

LOL!

 

 

 

You can't say it in your own words because you have no clear concept, or what?

If there is no self, then how could I possibly own words? Words are words, nobody owns them. "My own words" is an illusion.

(Note: the above statements are a facetious top down response which does not mix well with relative reality. I thought I should clarify this so you (and Steve) don't get the impression that I'm being serious and forgetful of the two realities)

 

Which brings me to another point. Why did you hide your "My First Thogal Vision" thread? I put in a lot of time responding to your misconceptions, trying to point you in the right direction and now it is all gone. It was a valuable thread because it would have helped beginner practitioners distinguish between the impure and pure visions along the thogal path.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Trashed another thread eh Wells?