Theories and practices dealing with Yin and Yan energies in Chi-

[blue eyed snake]

thanks all, this made an interesting read,

 

bes

[steve]

I do though have a problem with the use of the word arbitrary (def: https://www.wordnik.com/words/arbitrary ) for yin and yang.  Though there is a tendency to mis-assign them to 'things' - like Luke's example of the sun.  The sun is yang relative to the earth - and also the usual example of a hill and it's sunny side.  But if you look at the sun as an object then while it is radiating out vast amounts of energy into space it is also slowly condensing as hydrogen turns to helium and will eventually collapse - so there is an internal yin process.  So its not that things are yin or yang in themselves but in relation to each other.  You could perhaps, say that yin and yang are more verbs than nouns.

Yes, arbitrary is a strong word and perhaps not them most accurate to capture my point succinctly. I am more pointing out our tendency to reduce the fullness and wholeness of being into limited and discrete conceptual chunks we can understand. In doing so I think we miss the point of cultivation and misconstrue holistic concepts like wuji and taiji. I couldn't agree more that yin and yang are verbs as much or more than nouns - I like to use the word process or aspect. 

 

I think the principles and theories of Yin & Yang are not arbitrary in the sense they are bound by structure ie not random and not open to chaotic representations, but then its hard to imagine if one can hope to progressively apply these principles by adhering rigidly to them. One would imagine there has to be room for flexibility and allowance for sudden transformation (for eg, when latent seeds mature and bear fruit without any particular or related conscious action on our part), something which i have seen happen the odd time, in others as well as self. Whether this means they are arbitrary or not can't really say for sure.  

Well said.

 

i'm very much a beginner myself, but I know that our teacher does not want us to fiddle around with  concepts that we are not (yet) able to experience. But now that I've read more carefully your post and that of wisteria winds, i recognize the way I'm taught, so the difference between yin and yang energies definitely not arbitrary, but the focus is on practice.

Yes there most certainly are patterns of interaction and differentials we can observe that indicate something that is not random at work. The Daoists describe these observations quite well as does scientific observation.

 

And yet, for me at least, this construct of mind, be it Daoist, Buddhist, Bön, or scientific, has some degree of inherent inaccuracy. Our attempts to reduce reality to concept are necessarily somewhat contrived, that is more what I was trying to express, I think. 

 

I'll also let it go now to allow the OP's original question to be addressed. Thanks all, for the valuable discussion.

[liminal_luke]

I´m reminded of that Buddhist story about the monk who carried a woman across the river.  The monk´s companion asked how he could of carried a woman like that: wasn´t that putting himself into lustful temptation?  The first monk replied that he had already put the woman down while his friend was still carrying her.

 

It´s a little like that with yin and yang.  They are useful concepts on one side of the river, but once we cross to the other side it´s time to put them down.

 

Taoist cosmology, as I understand it, stretches from the relative to the absolute ... and there are practices and viewpoints that correspond to the various levels.  Wuji -- TaiChi (yin/yang) -- five elements -- ten thousand things.  (Bums more versed in these things-- please correct if I¨m mistaken.)

 

If one is headed on a fast-train for towards the non-conceptual -- as in certain Buddhist/Bon practices-- dualistic concepts (and yin/yang is the very essence of dualism) may not apply.

Edited May 7, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

I´m reminded of that Buddhist story about the monk who carried a woman across the river.  The monk´s companion asked how he could of carried a woman like that: wasn´t that putting himself into lustful temptation?  The first monk replied that he had already put the woman down while his friend was still carrying her.

 

It´s a little like that with yin and yang.  They are useful concepts on one side of the river, but once we cross to the other side it´s time to put them down.

 

Taoist cosmology, as I understand it, stretches from the relative to the absolute ... and there are practices and viewpoints that correspond to the various levels.  Wuji -- TaiChi (yin/yang) -- five elements -- ten thousand things.  (Bums more versed in these things-- please correct if I¨m mistaken.)

 

If one is headed on a fast-train for towards the non-conceptual -- as in certain Buddhist/Bon practices-- dualistic concepts (and yin/yang is the very essence of dualism) may not apply.

 

In Taoist cosmology the ten thousand things are not so much viewed as separate objects but more as events, processes or occurrences within the flow of change, or the flow of qi.  A bit like fish bobbing in and out of stream.  The Dao (via the Taiji) is the underlying unity which is both the source of the 'things' and that which sustains their appearance.  That which sustains them and to whose music they dance (the beat of Heaven and Earth) is called the 'gangji' (the warp-and-woof or net) and this fabric or net is yinyang interaction.  So yinyang is not the essence of duality but in fact the heart of non-duality.

 

You will find in all non-dualist systems the presentation of 'two which are not two' - like emptiness and luminosity in Buddhism or Atman and Brahman in Advaita.

 

I understand what you are saying about non-conceptualisation as I practice one of the Buddhist direct paths, mahamudra, but it is one thing to practice resting the mind in uncontrived and non-conceptual naturalness - but quite another to say that ideas that relate to the expression of non-duality do not apply.

[dayzhaze]

This thread was inspired by a post I made in The Pit.  see below

 

I'm looking for a polite thread on how the various arts interpret and practice yin and yan energies.  I spent most of my time in Ki-Aikido which had a mostly singular definition of Ki.  A useful one.  Most Eastern arts seem to split chi into many types of energy.  The biggies being yin and yan. 

 

How does your art work with yin and yan chi?  As well as other forms.  What develops yin chi, what yan?  Do we need to separate them?  What is the framework understanding in different systems.  As well as practices if permitted.

 

I'm hoping we'll get some of the sites more experienced people weighing in on this and the discussion stays open and respectful. 

 

In reference to mopai, John teaches that yin energy can not be felt or perceived at all by humans, until the later levels when the two energies are brought together.  He also teaches that yin energy can only be obtained while grounded to the earth. While gathering yang chi an equal amount of yin is automatically gathered so long as you are grounded to the earth.  Synthetic electrical insulators block the it's flow, from the earth into your body. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by dayzhaze

[blue eyed snake]

Your mind itself is pure yang energy, so trying to experience yin with it is like trying to use a flashlight to see the darkness. According to John only at the later levels where yin and yang energies are brought together can yin energy be directly perceived.  

 

that is a nice metafor, 

 

regarding plastics and such as getting in the way of receiving earth energy, I know that my teacher has commented on that, but on the other hand he tells us it is important to keep the feet warm so their has to be found a sort of balance in daily life. Having cold feet is probably less common in Indonesia as it is here in cold Holland.

 

I do not like plastic soles, for training in the dojo I have these shoes of cloth with a very thin piece of leather as a sole. For winter i've put woolen soles inside them, keeps my feet both warm and free of plastic 

 

and at home i've a large nepalese woolen rug in the living room, that serves me well for training at home

[Michael Sternbach]

###############

Moderator Notice

 

The off-topic discussion regarding Mopai that developed on this thread has been split and moved to the pit. Interested members can continue it there.

 

Forum rules apply.

 

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[dawei]

Split and Pit Here:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41000-theories-and-practices-dealing-with-yin-and-yang-energies-in-chi-split-and-pit/

 

 

[allinone]

something like this: ..old yin and young yang get together, baby will be created

then baby yang will go away from womb/home. Womb owner dislikes baby because of looking other yins now...

 

There is Greece mythology or any other about yinyang different levels but with different names.

[allinone]

YinYang thinking was common in ancient time.

 

Chess board is YinYang.

 

Cross is YinYang.

 

It is a tool that uses unified bifurcation to grow consciousness.

 

The way fractals grow.

 

For example, we could see a table.

 

We can take it apart and examine with our mind that ONE table has UpDown, LeftRight, TopBottom, InsideOutside, etc, etc.

 

We never lose sight that it is one table, but we see aspects that define in a relative way.

 

We can use YinYang to see energy, and also physical structure - ExpandingContracting, etc, or ExpandedContracted, etc.

 

YinYang is also traditionally known as a study of change and movement.

 

All things are changing.

 

Nothing is all yin or all yang - always both.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Yin is absence and yang has extra. You have two onenessnesses, their state is opposite to each other. So you have third as a state.

 

There exist full yin and full yang. The third is a state of being.

[allinone]

In reference to mopai, John teaches that yin energy can not be felt or perceived at all by humans, until the later levels when the two energies are brought together.  He also teaches that yin energy can only be obtained while grounded to the earth, while gathering yang chi an equal amount of yin is also gathered so long as you are grounded to the earth.  Synthetic electrical insulators block it's flow, from the earth into your body. 

 

here's the quote from book,

 

 

“You understand about yang and yin?” he had asked. I nodded.

In this day and age few people in the West had not heard of these

two opposing universal forces. “Inside our bodies, both flow in equal

amounts,” he continued. “These energies are opposites; they can

never meet. Yin and yang normally run parallel to each other, never

letting go of one another. I use my yin and yang together as one;

that is why I can do what I do. By itself, yang ch’i cannot pass the

limits of the body.”

 

 

 

Knowing from studies small particles can go through obstacles. Is that JC can discern small particles and then at some point can lead them?

 

also:

 

“Have you ever had an accident?”

“Only once. I broadsided a truck doing about a hundred.”

“What happened?”

“Nothing happened. I used my power to absorb the impact on

my body. They had to cut me out with chain saws. The witnesses

thought it was a miracle, that God or some saint had protected me.”

I was stunned. What he was telling me was that his body, augmented

by the powers his neikung training had given him, had withstood

a stress greater than the yield strength of steel. I tried to imagine

the metal and glass shards flowing around his body, unable to pierce

human flesh. Certainly, plastic deformation as planned by the car’s

designers allowed for much, but there was no denying that the momentum

he had absorbed had been phenomenal.

 

also:

 

Yang ch’i cannot pass

beyond the confines of the physical body, while yin ch’i can and so

may impart to the practitioner preternatural abilities such as those

demonstrated by Master Chang.

 

 

..

is the chi a force what the particles contain or have?

Edited May 11, 2016 by allinone

[thelerner]

thelerner, on 02 May 2016 - 17:24, said:

Though part of me, perhaps a masochistic part, would like the existence of a Mo Pai thread the doesn't have a flame war in it.  Maybe for learning, maybe just to show we're adults and we can.

 

One part of mo pai is the exploration of chi, particularly separating yin and yan functions.  Maybe a new thread looking at how different arts interpret and practice yin and yan energies?

 

 

###############

Moderator Notice

 

The off-topic discussion regarding Mopai that developed on this thread has been split and moved to the pit. Interested members can continue it there.

 

Forum rules apply.

 

################

I've been on vacation for a while.  I'm sorry to see this.  I particularly wanted to have different views in here, especially Mopai's since I know that art has particular insights in yin/yan energy splits. 

 

I was hoping to see a discussion that could start and develop based on ideas with no stigmas, prejudice or bad will.  Mopai shouldn't be a dirty word.  As the OP writer, I'd prefer my original intent honored.  That this be an inclusive discussion on the subject of Yin Yan energies. 

 

To avoid insults, be open minded and avoiding pissing contests.  Keep discussion based on ideas and leaving behind the old arguments and feuds.   

Edited May 11, 2016 by thelerner

[dayzhaze]

here's the quote from book,

 

 

 

 

 

Knowing from studies small particles can go through obstacles. Is that JC can discern small particles and then at some point can lead them?

 

also:

 

 

also:

 

 

 

..

is the chi a force what the particles contain or have?

 

Yang energy is an active motive energy, it glows bright white/blue when pure, and purple/red when opposed by yin energy, yang energy comes from the atmosphere.  Yang chi can interact with the physical environment, but cannot leave the body except via physical contact or an electrical conductor.  Yin energy is a passive field type energy like gravity or a magnetic field, and can leave the body but cannot interact with the physical environment.  A strong enough yin field can allow yang energy to leave the physical body, and interact with the environment, e.g. "telekinesis" Jim's video where he is being tested.  

 

I will post some other quotes that may be useful. 

 

 

“Where does yin ch’i come from?” Andreas asked.

 

 

“From the earth. The yin comes from the earth. It is some kind

of field phenomenon that feeds our lifeforce. It can be blocked by

insulators. For example, if you have a carpet made from synthetic

materials in your house, the yin ch’i cannot pass through it. That’s

not so good for your health.

 

The yin ch’i enters the body through an acupuncture point that

we call hui yin, he added. “It’s located between the urinary tract and

the anus.”

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus of Java (page 104)

 

 

 

He explained to me, “Your yin comes from the earth and you need to be

connected to it.” He said I have to sit outside on the ground. 

This was somewhat troubling because where I live it snows about twice a year

and rains a lot, so while he was telling me this I was trying to figure

how I was going to be able to do it. He also told me yang comes from

the air and enters the energy point on the top of your head. And it

needs to be equally balanced with my yin which enters another energy

point at the area of your perineum.

 

Jim McMillan - Seeking the Master of Mo Pai (page 178)

 

 

They can pass ch’i from their body, but it is only yang ch’i. During the test

I myself generate yin ch’i and act as an opposite pole by standing

next to the packs. This induces their yang ch’i to extend over to my

yin, and that action allows them to move the cigarette packs.

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus of Java (page 81)

 

 

(on Kosta being filled with Yin energy by John)

 

John came up behind me and pulled my shirt out of my pants. As

with Handoko, he put a knuckle up against the small of my back, in

the area of my kidneys.

 

Suddenly I felt like I was being pumped up with air. I could feel

my belly distending and my bladder being squeezed; I wanted to

pee. There was no other sensation; no cold, no rush of energy, no

electrical discharge, nothing. Just the feeling of fullness.

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus of Java (page 111)

 

John had mentioned that a student had to be at least Level Three

to be able to sense the yin; that a human being, by his own nature

yang, cannot sense yin energy directly.

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus of Java (page 114)

[dawei]

Yin is absence and yang has extra. You have two onenessnesses, their state is opposite to each other. So you have third as a state.

 

There exist full yin and full yang. The third is a state of being.

 

 

A few years ago I did not know what cultivating yin chi entailed. Now, a few years later, and with some experience in my backpack, I now understand that the path towards the yang "heavenly mother mountain" is quite different from cultivating earthly yin chi.

 

By nature, humans naturally cultivate earth yin chi. We eat food and drink liquids. To be frank, there is no practical nor spiritual need to increase yin chi through the perineum. (Unless your goal is to manifest captivating healing techniques or display riveting martial arts feats, à la mopai.)

 

Another cultivation option is to keep a gentle awareness on higher areas of the body such as middle dan tien or upper dan tien. Balancing this with gentle movement exercises is one strategy to generate chi flow in the channels.

 

Yin is ordinary; Yang is extraordinary.

 

They are the same yet differ in name and quality within our experience.

 

[Apech]

Yin is ordinary; Yang is extraordinary.

 

They are the same yet differ in name and quality within our experience.

 

 

Wot?

[dayzhaze]

A few years ago I did not know what cultivating yin chi entailed. Now, a few years later, and with some experience in my backpack, I now understand that the path towards the yang "heavenly mother mountain" is quite different from cultivating earthly yin chi.

 

By nature, humans naturally cultivate earth yin chi. We eat food and drink liquids. To be frank, there is no practical nor spiritual need to increase yin chi through the perineum. (Unless your goal is to manifest captivating healing techniques or display riveting martial arts feats, à la mopai.)

 

Another cultivation option is to keep a gentle awareness on higher areas of the body such as middle dan tien or upper dan tien. Balancing this with gentle movement exercises is one strategy to generate chi flow in the channels.

 

"To be frank, there is no practical nor spiritual need to increase yin chi through the perineum. (Unless your goal is to manifest captivating healing techniques or display riveting martial arts feats, à la mopai.)"

 

It is a common misconception that the end goal of mopai is to develop such abilities.   The end goal is the creation of a yang spirit which survives death with a human mind, the abilities gained are merely side effects of the creation of that spirit.  We invest a lot of time and energy into children, making sure they are fed nutritious food, and educated. As a result of this investment, hopefully they grow up to be healthy, intelligent, adults.  Children are not able to reach the top shelf, but adults are. Indeed it is a side effect of becoming an adult that you can reach the top shelf, but it is not the end goal of becoming an adult. From mopai's perspective we extract both yin and yang energy from the environment and use them to construct a spirit in exactly the same way you would grow a baby, and watch it develop into an adult. From mopai's perspective almost 100% of all humans on earth die with a dead spirit, stillborn if you will. So from this perspective there indeed is a practical and spiritual need accumulate both yin and yang chi, beyond levels humans normally do through diet alone. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by dayzhaze

[thelerner]

I find there is a qualitative difference when I meditate outside.  My favorite being a tree stump near water.   The florescence behind my eyes are different, meditation takes on a different perhaps deeper state.  

 

As I recall Morehei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido was quoted saying something like 'With my right hand I express yan, with my left I have yin'.  Which I interpret non mystically to be fully effective martially and in life you need to express force and surrender.  Too often in the West we downplay yin, and pack our tool chest full of hammers. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by thelerner

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"From mopai's perspective we extract both yin and yang energy from the environment and use them to construct a spirit in exactly the same way you would grow a baby, and watch it develop into an adult. From mopai's perspective almost 100% of all humans on earth die with a dead spirit, stillborn if you will."

-----

 

This is a very strange claim.

 

How can you "extract" "yin and yang energy" from the environment?

 

Is that actually "the same way you would grow a baby"?

 

Have any of these people grown any babies?

 

And they "construct" a "spirit"?

 

I find all of this a very interesting take on things.

 

Incredible, actually.

 

Can anyone explain it a bit more?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[allinone]

a logic:

Earth is a desire realm(according to buddhism cosmology). Its a yin(according to JC earth is yin). So desires are yin.

[dayzhaze]

Re:

-----

"From mopai's perspective we extract both yin and yang energy from the environment and use them to construct a spirit in exactly the same way you would grow a baby, and watch it develop into an adult. From mopai's perspective almost 100% of all humans on earth die with a dead spirit, stillborn if you will."

-----

 

This is a very strange claim.

 

How can you "extract" "yin and yang energy" from the environment?

 

Is that actually "the same way you would grow a baby"?

 

Have any of these people grown any babies?

 

And they "construct" a "spirit"?

 

I find all of this a very interesting take on things.

 

Incredible, actually.

 

Can anyone explain it a bit more?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

"How can you "extract" "yin and yang energy" from the environment?"

 

What most people think of as meditation is not what mopai calls actual meditation.  Actual meditation while grounded to the earth is required to harvest both yin and yang energy.  

 

"Is that actually "the same way you would grow a baby"?"

 

Similar I suppose.  Most babies aren't masses of yin and yang energy though, so the nutritional requirements may be a bit different. 

 

"Have any of these people grown any babies?"

 

Yes, the creation of a yang spirit that survives death with a human mind is the goal of the practice.

 

"And they "construct" a "spirit"?"

 

From mopai's perspective almost 100% of earth's population dies with a dead spirit, nothing more than an empty shell.  It cannot actively choose to do anything, it has no willpower, it does not remember or even comprehend emotion. It retains base memory and that is about it.   Mopai creates a living yang spirit which retains all the characteristics of a human mind postmortem. It has to be fed and nurtured the way a embryo would, except with yin and yang energy.   The powers that manifest are merely a side effect of it's development, and certainly not the end goal of the practice. 

[allinone]

Its also in various religions that most die will reborn from a womb after leveling up again through various other forms of existence. And even if lucky getting birth on higher realm the fall is almost certain.

 

In Chan there is a quote that like only 2% of all the practitioners will solve inner ego.(don't remember the exact quote, its somewhere in foreword of The Surangama Sutra).

[thelerner]

Can't help but think, you get too yang and you burn yourself out.  That there needs to be balance and movement.  Thats not to say you can't have practices that specifically work with yin or yang, but too much imbalance and I assume you'll have problems. 

 

Afterlife theories are tricky.  You simply don't have people reliably coming back and talking about it.  We're moving into the area of religion and superstition.  I find writing by serious researchers on the memories of young children on past lives is fascinating, the mechanisms aren't really nailed down, maybe they can't be.

 

Energy wise some traditions speak of the danger of going halfway and failing, then there's a more psychological danger, that of increasing fear of death.  Dying in fear of losing everything versus acceptance into a natural state.

Edited May 14, 2016 by thelerner

[dayzhaze]

Can't help but think, you get too yang and you burn yourself out.  That there needs to be balance and movement.  Thats not to say you can't have practices that specifically work with yin or yang, but too much imbalance and I assume you'll have problems. 

 

Afterlife theories are tricky.  You simply don't have people reliably coming back and talking about it.  We're moving into the area of religion and superstition.  I find writing by serious researchers on the memories of young children on past lives is fascinating, the mechanisms aren't really nailed down, maybe they can't be.

 

Energy wise some traditions speak of the danger of going halfway and failing, then there's a more psychological danger, that of increasing fear of death.  Dying in fear of losing everything versus acceptance into a natural state.

 

"That there needs to be balance and movement."

 

A person can only hold as much yin as they have yang to balance. 

 

"Afterlife theories are tricky."

 

Indeed theories are tricky, but observations are not.  With the proper methods, and diligent training any person can observe this reality for themselves, no faith is required.

[Mudfoot]

Do you see any use of other yin/yang aspects of qi?

Like cold/warm, contracting/expanding, light/heavy? Or do you feel that is more relevant in the area of qigong rather than meditation for spiritual purposes, if I am not chewed up for making a distinction.

 

And is the Yin/yang dependency Dayzhaze write about more or less what you can read about in nei dan litterature: yang activates yin and yin holds yang?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Mudfoot

[Mudfoot]

I'm probably gonna get chewed up.....