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CrunchyChocolate555

How does one return from the final stages of morality?

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Say for instance that one of the biggest karmic lessons of an individual’s life is their morality. They go from having no morals and no spirituality, doing terrible and thoughtless things in their youth, to having a profound spiritual awakening in their later life, and attaining a universal-consciousness morality and extreme empathy for all beings. Not only seeking out what is best for all mankind, but for all of Tao. Not out of guilt, or of duty, but out of a profound understanding of the interrelatedness of all things.

There would come a stage then, where that person first feels tremendous guilt for their past actions, and a reticence to express power and manifestation in any form whatsoever, despite perhaps having amassed a large quantity of it in their spiritual development.  

Even with an increasingly profound knowledge and acceptance of their shadow side, such a person becomes hesitant to participate in the “real world”, fearing he would be falling back by leaving new karmic traces and imprints onto the universe. Even worse, surviving in the “real world” where a career is needed becomes increasingly difficult as that person traces down the roots of all his fundamental desires, including the desire to physically survive.

The world for this person seems to recoil on itself, and he feels AND feels responsible for all the pain and horror of the world, from the slightest innocent remark that may hurt one’s feelings, to the most horrific of Hitlers throughout the ages.

What would you tell such a person?

Edited by CrunchyChocolate555

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I would first ask what that person's understanding of morality is and what that person believes happens after death. I would also hope to converse with that person in confidence rather than in public.

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If they are able of all that insight in your OP, I would conclude that they are headed in the right direction.

 

I would also emphasize that "right" living is a matter of finding the proper balance between the extremes - something taught by (sometimes painful) experience and introspection.

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Say for instance that one of the biggest karmic lessons of an individual’s life is their morality. They go from having no morals and no spirituality, doing terrible and thoughtless things in their youth, to having a profound spiritual awakening in their later life, and attaining a universal-consciousness morality and extreme empathy for all beings. Not only seeking out what is best for all mankind, but for all of Tao. Not out of guilt, or of duty, but out of a profound understanding of the interrelatedness of all things.

 

There would come a stage then, where that person first feels tremendous guilt for their past actions, and a reticence to express power and manifestation in any form whatsoever, despite perhaps having amassed a large quantity of it in their spiritual development.  

 

Even with an increasingly profound knowledge and acceptance of their shadow side, such a person becomes hesitant to participate in the “real world”, fearing he would be falling back by leaving new karmic traces and imprints onto the universe. Even worse, surviving in the “real world” where a career is needed becomes increasingly difficult as that person traces down the roots of all his fundamental desires, including the desire to physically survive.

 

The world for this person seems to recoil on itself, and he feels AND feels responsible for all the pain and horror of the world, from the slightest innocent remark that may hurt one’s feelings, to the most horrific of Hitlers throughout the ages.

 

What would you tell such a person?

Take it easy.

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Say for instance that one of the biggest karmic lessons of an individual’s life is their morality. They go from having no morals and no spirituality, doing terrible and thoughtless things in their youth, to having a profound spiritual awakening in their later life, and attaining a universal-consciousness morality and extreme empathy for all beings. Not only seeking out what is best for all mankind, but for all of Tao. Not out of guilt, or of duty, but out of a profound understanding of the interrelatedness of all things.

There would come a stage then, where that person first feels tremendous guilt for their past actions, and a reticence to express power and manifestation in any form whatsoever, despite perhaps having amassed a large quantity of it in their spiritual development.  

Even with an increasingly profound knowledge and acceptance of their shadow side, such a person becomes hesitant to participate in the “real world”, fearing he would be falling back by leaving new karmic traces and imprints onto the universe. Even worse, surviving in the “real world” where a career is needed becomes increasingly difficult as that person traces down the roots of all his fundamental desires, including the desire to physically survive.

The world for this person seems to recoil on itself, and he feels AND feels responsible for all the pain and horror of the world, from the slightest innocent remark that may hurt one’s feelings, to the most horrific of Hitlers throughout the ages.

What would you tell such a person?

 

That it is a dangerous path that will eventually leave the person unable to interact, survive or experience happiness. Once a person has externalised their internal dialogue they feel responsible for every misery in the world. The result is inevitably depression and/or suicide. However, the path taken is already that of someone who had wished to surrender their mind and give up personal identity. Hard to know why this happens. It's the same as someone entering a cult and giving up control to a leader, or becoming alcoholic. Just a different way of achieving the same result.

 

Advice: Go see the Doctor immediately and cease any practices.

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Lighten up, dont identify, forgive yourself

 

If you feel responsible for everything, then deal with it

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I would tell such a person that the reason we are here is to participate in the real world. Go out and participate as best as you can, it's beautiful.

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That's a somewhat flawed understanding of karma.

 

Karma is the crap that builds up within yourself which produces the undesired effects you're mentioning. What you've actually done is create your own karmic matrix based on a fear response related to nothing whatsoever. Forget about the karma of the universe or any garbage like that. Refine the self. That's all you should worry about.

 

Sorry, but there is no profound understanding as you mentioned. Rather than refine the self you've just added energy to it, amplifying both the positive and negative. This reeks of kundalini.

 

There is no shadow side and the real and false world are one and the same thing. Reality and delusion look the same. I would tell such a person to pull their head out of their butt and realise that they're just feeding themselves garbage that is making them unhappy. I would also tell them that their profound understanding is actually profound delusion.

 

It's ok though. Seeing reality is as easy as turning over your hand. Really. What is needed is to drop the thoughts about it all because they're clearly constrictive, unproductive, and also completely irrational.

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I'd say forget the profound wisdom, cosmic love and all that crappy drama, that's what some call stinking of zen.  Roll up one's sleeves and do some serious charity work.  There's a reason it's called Karma yoga.   There are organizations that need able bodies, find one, stop philosophizing and start doing work that helps others.

 

Extra points if one can do it in a kind, loving manner but points the nonetheless if one gets out of their head and into helping people or an organization that needs it. 

Edited by thelerner
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I kind of understand where you are coming from, but to withdraw from the world is also a decision with Karmic consequences.

 

It sounds like you are still very identified with all the content of the world though, freedom comes from discovering the illusory and empty nature of it all and from discovering that there is no self involved, and if there is no self there is nobody to blame. In a sense you have opened the front door, but you still haven't opened the back door so it all can pass through you without getting stuck. 

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Sometimes you just have to forget about all this spiritual stuff, and do what you like.

 

Imagine a life without worrying about all of this...where you simply enjoy riding out on a boat going fishing while drinking coffee in the early morning, or something. That sounds nice to me, at least. Nothing more is needed.

Here's a good trick...go to the local bookstore, and find a men's magazine (assuming you're a man...a woman's magazine for women). Look through it and circle the images in the ads or articles that appeal to you. For instance, you might see images in Whiskey ads of guys hiking through mountains, or see a cool jacket being reviewed or something. This basic exercise is giving you clues as to what makes you happy. Normal people simply follow what makes them happy, rather than considering anything else...it's good to return to normalcy. To not worry about whether each small action we do is creating negative butterfly effects...that kind of thinking can be way too abstract for our own good.

It can be nice to simply be a normal person doing what you do, being imperfect. The path can (and probably should) include rest breaks. It must definitely include a realization that we're trying to be too perfect...we're trying to attain something, become great, think of ourselves as special, etc. All of that is unnatural. Sometimes we need to fall after such pride...and then lying bruised in the depths, we realize where we were wrong about all of this.

It's not good to tiptoe through life when you're fully capable of walking, and to fight against yourself too much when there is no real enemy there. It's not good to become neurotic with spiritual ideas...for instance thinking that if you make someone feel bad, that you're Hitler. It's simply not true. Perhaps sometimes people need to feel a little bad in order to grow, such as when you're the boss and they need to work harder. If you baby them and make sure they never feel anything, then how are you helping them, if that's preventing their natural human growth - their development of character? As long as you're still treating them well in general, considering them to some extent, you're still a good person.

Thankfully, we are not as powerful as we sometimes seem to be. Time will prove the truth of this to us...when we're having a rough time and it seems we're doing much damage to the world, just let it go and wait. It was just an illusion. The world continues, and we are not responsible for every little thing. It helps to understand reality in a direct way, rather than viewing everything that happens as a result of your insignificant actions. Perhaps our actions are only significant when they touch the heart of another.

So...forget about all of these spiritual ideas. This will help you be more natural. Pay attention to what you like and fill your life with it; treat yourself well, because you're the one who is here to look after you, no one else has that lifelong duty (although parents come in a close second). We always try our best, even if that means we need to stop trying so hard for our own sake and just treat ourselves well. At least we aren't the Kardashians.

Edited by Aetherous
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If you read chapter 18 and 19 of the Tao Te Ching it talks about humanity and justice (and hence morality), it says they arise in the absence of Tao. Most people assume that in order to achieve enlightenment one must be moral, but the fact is one must be able to see beyond morality and understand that these things are subjective and created according to a false way of living created by man that prevents them from being able to achieve harmony with the world. So long as you see something as moral or immoral, or good or evil, then you will never be able to understand the subjective and transient nature of the world, because it keeps you attached to a social construct that obstructs your understanding of the Tao. 

 

A man who becomes enlightened doesn't need to escape the world, because he is a part of the world. He doesn't need to achieve morality, because he is not chained to morality. This confuses many people, and I've seen many "Taoists" who use this concept as a reason to behave any way they want, believing Taoism is a form of social anarchism, when in fact it's not. Taoism is the cure for the necessity of anarchism, but the Tao Te Ching is very much a book about how one should behave, because, lacking the Tao one needs to resort to morality in order to restrain the darker side of human nature. However if one is unfettered by morality, that doesn't mean they act in a harmful or negative way, but rather their decisions on how they behave are based on the necessities of the moment and the Tao. They do what they do, because that's what they are supposed to or not supposed to do. 

 

I hope that clarifies things. This is something that deserves much deeper thought, but I don't have the time right now, so I'll leave it there. 

Edited by Aaron
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If I could sum up the hardships of the spiritual path it is the 'pain that comes when we become aware of something that we weren't previously aware of.'

 

Once we see something, there is no going back. We can't voluntarily just forget it.  We have to learn to live with full knowledge of this awful truth that so many around us are oblivious to.

 

Most people don't stop to think about the moral repurcussions of their actions.  They are unconscious of them.  But we now cannot help but see that there are actual consequences to everything we do.  The pound we spend on ourselves is a pound we might have spent on our children, or our friend, or our neighbour, or the starving Syrian.  This truth presents itself very vividly and indisputably.

 

We have to both remember this fact AND keep on living.  I think in practice this results in a more balanced, moderate existence.  We take what is our birth right as citizens of this planet, but no more than that.  We are no longer forgetful or callous about the deprivations of others, but we are not paralysed by self-abnegation either.

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If I could sum up the hardships of the spiritual path it is the 'pain that comes when we become aware of something that we weren't previously aware of.'

 

Once we see something, there is no going back. We can't voluntarily just forget it. We have to learn to live with full knowledge of this awful truth that so many around us are oblivious to.

 

Most people don't stop to think about the moral repurcussions of their actions. They are unconscious of them. But we now cannot help but see that there are actual consequences to everything we do. The pound we spend on ourselves is a pound we might have spent on our children, or our friend, or our neighbour, or the starving Syrian. This truth presents itself very vividly and indisputably.

 

We have to both remember this fact AND keep on living. I think in practice this results in a more balanced, moderate existence. We take what is our birth right as citizens of this planet, but no more than that. We are no longer forgetful or callous about the deprivations of others, but we are not paralysed by self-abnegation either.

That's the route to self destruction Nickolai. It's the evil of altruism taken to its logical conclusion. It will result in the conclusion that 'my being alive is resulting in someone's death, my survival is someone demise". The world doesn't work that way, or no one would survive.

Edited by Karl

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Say for instance that one of the biggest karmic lessons of an individual’s life is their morality. They go from having no morals and no spirituality, doing terrible and thoughtless things in their youth, to having a profound spiritual awakening in their later life, and attaining a universal-consciousness morality and extreme empathy for all beings. Not only seeking out what is best for all mankind, but for all of Tao. Not out of guilt, or of duty, but out of a profound understanding of the interrelatedness of all things.

 

There would come a stage then, where that person first feels tremendous guilt for their past actions, and a reticence to express power and manifestation in any form whatsoever, despite perhaps having amassed a large quantity of it in their spiritual development.

 

Even with an increasingly profound knowledge and acceptance of their shadow side, such a person becomes hesitant to participate in the “real world”, fearing he would be falling back by leaving new karmic traces and imprints onto the universe. Even worse, surviving in the “real world” where a career is needed becomes increasingly difficult as that person traces down the roots of all his fundamental desires, including the desire to physically survive.

 

The world for this person seems to recoil on itself, and he feels AND feels responsible for all the pain and horror of the world, from the slightest innocent remark that may hurt one’s feelings, to the most horrific of Hitlers throughout the ages.

 

What would you tell such a person?

Hug me,

By the way, concider spending some time with a real free being in person. They call them teacher or gurus. It can be helpfull

Edited by Kubba

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That's the route to self destruction Nickolai. It's the evil of altruism taken to its logical conclusion. It will result in the conclusion that 'my being alive is resulting in someone's death, my survival is someone demise". The world doesn't work that way, or no one would survive.

I agree! But at the same time it's an insight that we cannot help but go through and come to terms with.  And finding the ability to do this allows us to take the edge off our excesses.  Those people who do most harm in this world are the ones with the least ability to understand what the OP is saying.

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I agree! But at the same time it's an insight that we cannot help but go through and come to terms with.  And finding the ability to do this allows us to take the edge off our excesses.  Those people who do most harm in this world are the ones with the least ability to understand what the OP is saying.

 

What if you regard the excesses as being your own life ?

 

If your insight was built on the false premise that to be moral is to be altruistic, then it must ultimately be incorrect. Ethics aren't a compromise they are rules that you decide to follow because it makes you happier than the alternative. Do you feel happier worrying over how your spending/life impacts on someone else ? Are not you trying to live for them by sacrificing yourself. How does that help anybody ?

 

The passenger aircraft serves as a good example. If the oxygen masks fall, the crew advise you to put on your mask before helping anyone else. That's because an altruist would attempt to help everyone else first. In doing so they lose their own lives and then the ability to save others.

 

There is a great quote regarding the poor. "You can help the poor most by not being one of them". In other words do not add to their number, you can help them best by being one less of them.

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Do you feel happier worrying over how your spending/life impacts on someone else ? Are not you trying to live for them by sacrificing yourself. How does that help anybody ?

The moral life is always lived in the present moment. It cannot be condified into a set of do's and donts, and therefore it can't be talked about with any specificity.

 

But there will and does come times in our life when we recognise that another person's need exceeds our own.  Therefore we deprive ourselves in favour of the other.  This process becomes much smarter if we have passed though some of the reflections contained in the OP.  We have to come to terms and accept our own role in the suffering of others.  This opens our eyes, and shows us when it is incumbent for us to act altruistically and when not.

 

Like I said, our moral duty does not occur in any known situations.  The impulse to act altruistically arises spotaneusly in the moment and is self-validating.

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The moral life is always lived in the present moment. It cannot be condified into a set of do's and donts, and therefore it can't be talked about with any specificity.

 

But there will and does come times in our life when we recognise that another person's need exceeds our own. Therefore we deprive ourselves in favour of the other. This process becomes much smarter if we have passed though some of the reflections contained in the OP. We have to come to terms and accept our own role in the suffering of others. This opens our eyes, and shows us when it is incumbent for us to act altruistically and when not.

 

Like I said, our moral duty does not occur in any known situations. The impulse to act altruistically arises spotaneusly in the moment and is self-validating.

I used to deal with business owners that felt like that. The result was that they were going bust continually and putting themselves and their unfortunate families further into debt and relative poverty.

 

You can be more charitable when you are in a position to be more charitable-if that's the course of action that makes you happiest. You cannot give to others what you do not have yourself.

 

Did you know that beggars despise those that give them money ?

 

Why can't your life be lived in the present and have a list of virtues supporting your values. Isn't that exactly what you are doing by suggesting that ' another persons need exceeds our own' ? Isn't that a rule, or is it flexible for you and therefore you might not believe that in the next few seconds ?

 

What is your role in the suffering of others ? How can you know it, never mind avoid it ? If you only live for the moment then why is it even important to you when you refuse to have rules by which to live anyway ?

 

Isn't this a dichotomy? An unresolvable internal conflict ? Is it making you happy to think the way you do ?

Edited by Karl

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 Isn't that a rule, or is it flexible for you and therefore you might not believe that in the next few seconds ?

 

 

As you mentioned beggars, there are two rules: 1) I always give money when I see a homeless person 2) I never give money to homeless people.

 

Your argument is well-suited to those trapped in rule 1.  Those who follow rule 2 are likely to have never fullt grasped their own role and involvement in the suffering of others.

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As you mentioned beggars, there are two rules: 1) I always give money when I see a homeless person 2) I never give money to homeless people.

 

Your argument is well-suited to those trapped in rule 1.  Those who follow rule 2 are likely to have never fullt grasped their own role and involvement in the suffering of others.

 

But if you believe that you have caused the suffering, then whatever you do cannot make amends for that suffering and you are inevitably creating more by any action. You are trapped in a catch 22 and are powerless to do anything about it.

 

Why not do your best to promote you own happiness and well being whilst being honest, independent of other men's charity and a productive person. That way, whatever you decide to do regarding a homeless beggar you are personally not a burden on anyone else. Your productive effort enhances the world and you can get a good idea by how much through the exchange received. As long as you are honest and independent in your life then you owe nothing to anyone and may give to whoever you feel is most deserving. The more you have, the more you can give.

 

 

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If I could sum up the hardships of the spiritual path it is the 'pain that comes when we become aware of something that we weren't previously aware of.'

 

Once we see something, there is no going back. We can't voluntarily just forget it.

What have you seen? What are you aware of?

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