Neidan vs Qigong

[WilliamChan]

It seems like you're maybe talking about spontaneous movement qigong? Kunlun isn't really the same thing...it's a certain posture, basically.

 

Thank you for telling.  This is what I could find in the website at that time.  I think I might have missed many.  I apologize for being reckless to draw such conclusion.  My above comment is only towards automatics movement qigong.

[WilliamChan]

Some friends here have asked me to comment on some Neidan practices; to be frank I am just a beginner who just know 1% of it.  Please let me just share all I know about the procedure of Neidan and discuss together.  Below is part of the amended reply to the friend in here:

 

Elements of Dan is mostly completed in micro orbit (north and south, up and down of body) and wooden golden orbit afterwards (east and west, left and right of body); plus your mental focus on the Dan after all the energy exercises to let the Spirit and Chi merge together.  This process helps to refine yang and yin, especially focusing on yang, the refined sexual energy. The main thing is to see if you have progress in your dan tan and how does the chi make you feel.  If no bliss feeling no light no ecstacy etc. it is still low yang.  If it is too hot and keep rising then it is even not real yang.  Unhealthy yang only.  If a lineage talk deeply about micro orbit / Jinyang huo Tuiyin fu, and tell you how to refine it step by step, how to suck up the pill etc., then it conforms to Neidan too.  Important to see if they only talk about keep circulating micro obit meaninglessly for no reason, or they tell you in advanced stage, when you feel real yang comes do you suck up the medicine / or other methods (*if you have not been through micro orbit and not yet open the two channels, only suck up to dan tian; if you have been through, up to the brain and wait until it comes back gradually or with breath by saliva and chi).  When there is no pill dont suck up for no reason.

 

All in all, the process is simple.  First use breath or standing pose or whatever to create real yang in your body until the dan tian gets heated up.  Second stage:  main practice is just focus on it until it gradually go through the micro orbit.  meanwhile, whenever you feel sexual bliss but without any negative lustful thoughts (***important: at that time, your organ will be likely to go up, BUT NOT YET GO UP OR ELSE THE MEDICINE IS TOO OLD!), suck it up into dan tian until the organ goes down (or to the brain if you have already cleared the blockage of front and back channels).  Still focus on the dan tian in every session with patience and then the real yang will gets more and more stronger and go into micro orbit automatically with more and more frequency.  And then, the small pill will come again and again (which means the sexual bliss plus the sexual organ LIKELY but not yet raise up), and then suck it up.  After sucking it up, focus on the dan tian relaxedly again as like "feeding" it and wait until next time.

 

Simple, after basic practices and after built up good yang in dan tian, all you have to do is to : focus on dan tian, and then the result is : let it do automatic micro orbit, or, when pill comes you suck it up, and then go back to "focus on dan tian" again.  For better result you need to do wooden-golden orbit too to further refine it and make it absorbed in your body.  But not going to go through in detail here, until you have already reached the micro orbit.  (These go on until the BIG medicine come and you will see Golden Light for 3 times (I have never experienced this stage, but this is according to masters, sutras and books).  All the chi will automatically stop at that time and you need to again suck it up to the brain.  Huge vibration in your sensual doors will happen.  Kidneys feel like being burnt.  Do wooden-golden orbit once again but in the high dan tian.  After some other details, the real yang finally merge with the real yin and then you will be DEAD for 7 days when the medicine come back to your Dan Tian.  It becomes the true MACRO ORBIT.  Practice time is 9 pm to 1 am.

 

The above procedure is still simplified, especially about the big medicine.  Also, after this stage I do not know about the detailed techniques.  But you will find all the hints in the sutra and know what to do.  

[WilliamChan]

Below is a reply to a friend here about a Qigong (not neidan) method.  Just for reference please do not practice just based on this one.  It is a well known qigong in China and practiced by many even now.  Below is the reply:

 

If you are just aiming micro orbit for health and not intending to go for deeper, there is a very reliable qigong called Zhen Qi Yun Xing.  You could have a search.  It is very easy and they say it could be self learn.  (I have only reached the micro-orbit stage through it and then did not go on with its practice).

 

in sitting posture, do very natural and normal breathing in the whole process without control (no need reverse or non-reverse, just do whatever you will do when you dont have control).  relax your mind, body and breath. when you breathe out, slightly pay attention at your stomach area (but in the mid path of your body).  rmb it is not a point but an area large like your palm.  the tongue is not that important do whatever pose you want.  just do that until it becomes hot.  when it gets hotter it will automatically go down to your dan tian.  never let it goes up (it  rarely does, unless you have some physical or mental problems).  by that time, turn your focus on dan tian in each exhale.  inhale , no thought at all, do not need to be mindless or be focused at anywhere, just dont have to care about inhale is ok, just wait until next exhale is ok, just being natural is ok.  when your dan tian gets hot enough, stop being focused on exhale.  dont have to care a lot about the breath.  now just focus on the heat.  the heat draws your attention.  of course, still, relax in the whole process. the more relaxed you are the more refined yang you get.  just stay here.  the next sessions you do, you can at first do the exhale focus until it gets hot and then focus on it.  or if it gets hot already then dont need to do it.  rmb, dont get it too hot.  the exhale breath is like lightening the fire, and the focus only is like cultivating it.  so when it already hot, dont need to lighten it up anymore, just watch at it like a soft baby.  until someday it will go back to your pelvic floor and then your lower back and then go back to the back, so on.  rmb, do not ever, never, try to guide the chi goes.  it is accumulating slowly and gets enough power and automatically go up to micro orbit.  dont force its process.  also, sometimes the chi will want to skip the pelvic floor and directly go to the back.  dont let it happen too.  but its ok if you cannot control as its not dangerous.  just that pelvic floor is the place to product yang, if you skip it, your chi will have no yang inside.  so micro orbit has to include pelvic floor, before going to the lower back.  and then massage your dantian first, for some while, and then whole body, from top to down, after each session.   this is simplified closing ceremony version only, you can do a better one that has been disclosed by other lineage.  but the one i have mentioned should be enough.  rmb you dont want the chi still wandering around in the body after your session.  the massage is to make it go back to dan tian at first.  and whatever is left can be circulated in the whole body.  rmb, the whole thing is to be relaxed... dont force breath, dont force your visualization.  dont do all that.  i suggest the most safe procedure is to sit for 15 mins or more, until you get really relaxed, and then do it . well, i suggest not to do pole breathing...... it might make you release your chi.  when will pole breathing happen?  even if you dont do neidan, and just do this advanced qi gong, it will come FOR SURE.  when after micro orbit, and when macro orbit comes (in qi gong term only), the whole body pathway will be gradually opened.  until all the pathway open up, your whole body is full of qi.  i hope at that time you have already learnt to stay totally relaxed and never let it come fake yang or else your whole body will be burnt and become unhealthy.  well, at that time, your breath will stop.  the true pole breathing comes only when your whole body path way opened, because at that time the pole can be opened too and exchange air.

 

all in all, the steps of the whole qi gong are,

1. relax

2. exhale focus

3. focus the heat

4. the heat goes into micro orbit gradually (maybe 1 month u r still in the middle of back, another month you reach the top of head, 3 month you finally rotate) 

5. after that, in each session, just focus on dan tian and let it move by its own will, relaxed rmb

6. gradually it will go through all the pathways

 

additional exercise

follow the normal thing, like, dont do it when ur sad or angry, dont do it when its thunder or huge natural disasters or when many ppl die, dont do it 1 hr after meal, dont go to toilet or bathing 30 minutes after practice, do some walking or sports when you feel something wrong and stop practice, drink milk could be good too, notice if you mouth get dry something is wrong, becuase there are many fake yang , stop practice for a while and do more massage or other things, and then evaluate if you have become too stressed out that creat fake yang in your practice, or you are using too much visualization, too much force, or you are doing too much qi gong

i am not sure if it can combine with your current exercise.... but if anything is doing with the energy pathway in your body i strongly suggest you to stop it when u do this.  dont interfere the energy move when you do this powerful qi gong.

also, i suggest you to do some moving taosim exercise (i would not say it is qigong) like tai chi, before you practice.  there is reason to help you progress faster but i am not going to mention in depth.

 

the above is the whole process of advanced qi gong.  some could go to no breath and no heart beating movement.  examples are in tai wan.  and some could realize the Tao in that state.  examples are in china (based on their personal sharing).  at their level, just focus on dan tien everytime and naturally let it move to anywhere it wants.  then the chi will do all the work for you.  so it is already the complete path i have shared with you.

 

learn some moving taoism exercise that helps you get healthier to assist.  

Zhen Qi Yun Xing if you could find masters in it you could give a try too.

it is not neidan but might reach the most profound state too.

just rmb, when you feel dry in the mouth, it is a very important signal that soemthing has gone wrong!!!! it is the largest risk of this type of advanced qigong when compared to neidan.  just always notice how your body goes with common sense.  maybe regularly go to a chinese medicine doctor to see how your body status is.  if you get healthy and happier then there is no way it is going wrong.

 

good luck my friend 

[子泰]

Yes. those who try to succeed in neidan are as numerous as hairs on a cowhide, those who have actually attained success are as unique as uncorn's horn. You still say that anyone can do neidan?

 

Anyone can, as long as their teacher is achieved. 

[Taoist Texts]

Anyone can, as long as their teacher is achieved. 

Really. Is your teacher 'achieved'?

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Taoist Texts]

 I have watched your posts over the last few weeks and I must say that you come across as a bitter, hating man. Not someone who has attained anything. 

thats all good;)

This is not a personal attack, just my observations. 

if u say so;)

[子泰]

Really. Is your teacher 'achieved'?

Is yours?

[Meroe]

as someone who has also learned neidan from Dragon Gate, id like to put forth my humble opinion on the matter

 

in my experience, the difference between Qigong and Neidan, is that with Qigong the objective is to clear blockages, and acculmulate Qi. in Neidan, it is concerned primarily with the Transmutation of the forces within the body, of which QiGong is a mandatory foundation. Through experiementation, the ancient daoists set upon learning the progressions and changes in nature using the I Ching, with the objective of matching said transformations into the body.

 

Qigong concerns itself primarily with post heaven treasures, whereas neidan works with Pre heaven treasures.

[WilliamChan]

Thank you so much.  Your explanation is very clear, precise and hits to the point.  I appreciate that so much.  I guess you are an adept in this field.

 

One more thing to add on is that some Qigong is beyond the scope of the above definition (the preparation for Neidan).

So the Chi it accumulates is not pre heaven chi, not post heaven real yang, but only heat.

Too heavy mind and breath and open channel artificially, which is dangerous in the long term. 

Material art internal qigong is sometimes this type of qigong.

 

Would you also like to share some of your experiences with Neidan?  What is your expectation, and how does it go so far? 

Thank you so much!

[Taoist Texts]

Is yours?

Thank you for not answering a straightforward question.

 

Yes, mine is very 'achieved', whatever that means. Here is what he has to say:

 

 

54．弟子问许真君上升传云。后一千二百四十年间。当有八百人登仙。如何。祖师曾言。教万人俚王子仙又说来。

 

The students asked about the legend of the True Noblemen’s ascendance that said: ‘in 1240 years there must be 800 people who would ascend to sainthood’. What does it mean?

The ancestor teacher once said about this: teach 10 000 people and amongst them there will be one princely saint.

 

It means, that contrary to what you say an average student has no chance of 'achieving' regardless of whether his teacher is 'achieved' or not.

[WilliamChan]

I don't understand, my friend.  You keep suggesting none can achieve.  While you mention that your master, and probably you, has already achieved.  Why?  Why only could people on "your side" achieve?

 

I hope you are not suggesting that your lineage and your master is so special that nothing can be compared.  I hope you are not suggest that there is any superior spiritual "brand" and people inside it is closer to Tao.  To be frank, based on the things that you suggest, what you are practicing might be only one of the many Neidan lineages, which focuses on Non-doing right at the beginning stage, some lineages like 清靜派.  I am not criticizing but it is only a very common spiritual lineage that you can find anywhere, not only in Taoism.  Also, I personally would not take this approach since only the very ripe and talented students could do that.  Some of us need to take some more doing approach and gradually go back to non-dong.  This also conforms to the philosophy of Taoism.  My point is, different people have different needs; and only those needs can tell us what is the best practice.  But still, our goal is the same.

 

Anyway, my main point is what you are practicing is very good, but it is probably no special, no superior to others.  Please respect other lineages, and this is one of the essence of Tao too.  Tao is water, you just flow with it.  You never hold on to some emotional beliefs and make emotional judgement ("superiority" might be the emotion implied here). 

 

Lastly, most of your evidence is some vague statement about things like "it is difficult to become Saint", etc.  The fact that you use these simple statements to go against all other neidan lineages is not precise enough.  These statements can go against your lineage too, unless you are not doing Taoism.  Also, the number might just be poetic description about how difficult / noble is when one can achieve Saint.  I do not think it is to discourage people to seek for Tao.

 

If you really have found a better path, I hope you could share how do you feel in your practice; why is it more effective to achieve, when compared to other lineages; how to practice in a better way.  I hope you could help people to see the goodness of your practice, by sharing some joy with people.  That's the real fruit of the practice!

Edited September 12, 2015 by WilliamChan

[Taoist Texts]

I don't understand, my friend.  You keep suggesting none can achieve.  While you mention that your master, and probably you, has already achieved.  Why?  Why only could people on "your side" achieve?

 

Because we know the secret. It takes time to understand, you and I are not in a hurry right?

 

... others.  Please respect other lineages,  ... 

 

Lastly, most of your evidence is some vague statement about things like "it is difficult to become Saint", etc.  The fact that you use these simple statements to go against all other neidan lineages

 

What other neidan lineages concretely? Give me an example please.

[WilliamChan]

Because we know the secret. It takes time to understand, you and I are not in a hurry right?

 

 

What other neidan lineages concretely? Give me an example please.

 

Neidan lineages concretely?  My definition is based on your definition.  It seems you go against ALL the neidan lineages, EXCEPT YOURS --- the only special lineage that knows the secret.  Perhaps you shall be the one to tell me concretely about what lineages you do not consider as "harmful and useless" / "dead-end" (and why too), so I could concretely suggest you what lineages I feel you should have respect with ("respect" does not mean "agree", it just means to make criticism / conclusion AFTER you have studied and experienced about it).

 

However, I do not consider this to be a fruitful discussion anymore, since your reply does not contain any precise information for us to have a healthy exchange of ideas.  How I wish you could do that so that I can know more about a new possibly better lineage and understand why other neidans might be outdated.  I wish to learn (with fruitful discussion and careful conlusion, of course).  But I guess this is common for secretary lineages practitioner.  Though I do not agree with the points you make, and do not believe there is ONE secretary lineage superior to all other ancient neidan lineages, I am still glad that you have found what you want.  (To me, a superior Taoism lineage means those who conform to ancient Taoism sutras, which is the core principle behind, and there would not be one superior principle, since principle is the common ground behind, the rest is only face value; also, according to the Taoism philosophy, neidan mechanism and teachings of master, good always attached with bad, and bad always attached with good; those having great benefits will be necessarily attached with big drawbacks too, which is the balance of the universe, and so there is no one single "most" powerful techniques.)

 

The last thing I want to share with you is that, I think the fruits of practice can only be revealed from your intimacy with the people.  Hope we both achieve what we want.  Good luck.

Edited September 12, 2015 by WilliamChan

[soaring crane]

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Through experiementation, the ancient daoists set upon learning the progressions and changes in nature using the I Ching, with the objective of matching said transformations into the body."

-----

 

Matching the progressions and changes in nature into the body?

 

These changes create the body.

 

Our evidence is the body itself - 32 teeth, 32 vertabrae, 64 gua/64 codons in DNA, etc, etc.

 

Can you explain this idea of "matching" and "into"?

 

What exactly does that mean, and how would that be done?

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Aetherous]

Because we know the secret.

 

[damdao]

Because we know the secret. It takes time to understand, you and I are not in a hurry right?

 

 

What other neidan lineages concretely? Give me an example please.

Allow me to introduce you the greatest sophist of all times: Taoist Texts.

Debunked here:

http://thedaobums.co...nix-to-penglai/

http://thedaobums.co...-dummies/page-4

...........

About Kunlun: there are lineages called Kunlun and they have nothing to do with Christenssen's one. You can find some references in Warrior Guards the Mountain, by A. Cozma.

Welcome William, you can find many experiences sharing your ideas, from unpleasant to pleasant. 

But your posts are very appreciated.

Welcome

[Taoist Texts]

But I guess this is common for secretary lineages practitioner.  Though I do not agree with the points you make, and do not believe there is ONE secretary lineage superior to all other ancient neidan lineages, 

 

the word is 'secretive" not secretary

[Taoist Texts]

Allow me to introduce you the greatest sophist of all times: Taoist Texts.

Debunked here:

http://thedaobums.co...nix-to-penglai/

http://thedaobums.co...-dummies/page-4

.

uuuh my, this guy is obsessed with me. awkward.

[Taoist Texts]

Fairies are only ticklish under their right foot?

Rudolf, get serious. There are no fairies. Nor electrical dantians. You are a grown up now.

[gendao]

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

 

All in all, the process is simple.  First use breath or standing pose or whatever to create real yang in your body until the dan tian gets heated up.  ....  All the chi will automatically stop at that time and you need to again suck it up to the brain.  Huge vibration in your sensual doors will happen.  Kidneys feel like being burnt.  

 

William,

 

please do not do this. You will fry up your intestines for good. 

 

No need to thank me. Just do not do this and do not advise people to do this.

[WilliamChan]

Allow me to introduce you the greatest sophist of all times: Taoist Texts.

Debunked here:

http://thedaobums.co...nix-to-penglai/

http://thedaobums.co...-dummies/page-4

...........

About Kunlun: there are lineages called Kunlun and they have nothing to do with Christenssen's one. You can find some references in Warrior Guards the Mountain, by A. Cozma.

Welcome William, you can find many experiences sharing your ideas, from unpleasant to pleasant. 

But your posts are very appreciated.

Welcome

 

Thank you.  I was referring to Kunlun by Max.  But I guess I misinterpreted it as a mere automatic movement qigong.

About other Kunlun I am not familiar with them.  Heard of one before but full of fairy tales.

Thank you so much for the reminder.  Feel pleasant to discuss in here.