Many creatures sadly die to provide our food.

[AussieTrees]

If crops (vegetarian food) are to be grown,then at some point natural bushland needs to be cleared of trees and all vegetation,burning after bulldozing scrubland is common,killing everything native plants and animals,insects,all the way down to the microflora and micro fauna.

 

Native habitat is lost,no more nesting birds nothing but vegetarian food crops,rarely are these areas restored to a native habitat.

Then they spray,weedicide,herbicide,further polluting and corrupting the environment,even out to sea.

 

Good crops need fertiliser,produced often by extracting nitrogen from natural gas.

Good for crops,not so good for waterways of nature.

 

Yeah I have eaten veggies diet,for about two years in mid twenties,reasoning was like yourself concern for animal welfare and environmental damage.

The truth is, the realisation that food production of any sort it at a cost of displaced species and pollution to the environment.

 

Where did we go wrong?

 

We changed habits from hunter gathering to supermarket ease of getting food.

We decided to grow animals that are good to eat instead of chasing them and capture/slaughter.

 

Eat veggies that's a choice,but this does not protect the environment nor does it protect animals from abuse and loss of habitat.

 

Duck season is approaching,rice farmers are inviting shooters to their properties for the annual cull.

Culling,is killing animals mostly to prevent crop damage.

 

Cull the galahs,cockatoos,kangaroos,wallabies,possums,rats and mice,feral pigs,goats,deer,rabbits,horses,donkeys,camels,as well as dogs,dingos and foxes,just cull them all.

 

Cause we want to eat vegetarian food,and that will create the illusion of caring for animals and the environment.

 

Hi all,

 

We need to eat,farming produces food,not only for farmers,they feed many as well,so we can work in other fields.

Does not matter what you eat,hunted,fished,slaughtered or grown,they all have cost in suffering and pollution.

 

Cruelty is no promoted but it still happens.

Pollution from modern farming is not our goal but it still happens.

 

Be at peace with yourself and others.

Enjoy whatever you eat it is essential for life.

 

There are many problems to solve with the world experiencing the current population explosion.

Man has become the pest species,invading and defiling all continents,mmm culling?

Edited March 15, 2017 by AussieTrees

[Mandrake]

There's a cult of death, and there is a cult of birth.

Nowadays, I'm leaning towards [re-]cycling, avoiding excess and cruelty; these terms I use with a defined meaning.

There's also a cult of life, which is an adjacent matter.



M

[Marblehead]

True words are not always pretty; pretty words are not always true.

 

There is a logical reason why Nature on Earth has evolved the way it has so that there are grazing animals and there are carnivores.

 

Humans are omnivores.  We eat what we choose to eat or eat what is available to us.

[dust]

Humans are omnivores.  We eat what we choose to eat or eat what is available to us.

 

Yes, we are omnivores; we can eat meat. But:

 

-  being an 'omnivore' doesn't mean we have to eat both meat and plants. It's a choice; we absolutely do not need meat to live and be healthy

 

-  everything is available to us. Nobody in any relatively wealthy nation can claim that meat is their only option

 

-  to many, eating meat in itself is not the issue -- the problem is with how we go about producing animal products

 

 

That last point is the most important. I feel that animal cruelty should affect humans more than it seems to. Most people I meet are unwilling to hear about the way many animals are treated, simply saying "But I need my meat, so... I don't want to know." Never mind that they could choose to spend a little more money on a lower amount but higher quality of meat, and that this would (almost universally) also improve their long-term health (as well as reducing the number of animals killed and the cruelty involved in the process).

 

Some on this forum seem to use the "Daoist" ideal of harmony with nature to excuse their dietary habits; "It's the food chain, we eat meat, it's natural." But modern agriculture and food production is so disconnected from the wider ecosystem that almost nobody, even those who grow their own food, actually eats a healthy, balanced, local diet.

 

It has nothing to do with harmony with nature and everything to do with poor education and oblivious self-obsession.

[vonkrankenhaus]

The elephant in the room is Industry.

 

These people who put this all in place were Industrious.

 

By abstraction and greed (and many other trained thinking defects) they have gone out of balance from Natural Order.

 

Their "science" has been an relativistic exploration of profit and efficiency, not reality and truth, and it is strange that for so much work they have produced very little knowledge of Natural Order at all.

 

Human being will not control Nature or change it.

 

But if we surrender unto it, we have so much opportunity to discover what Natural Order is, and what is our place in this Natural Order.

 

That will answer the issue of "what" and "how" to eat.

 

It will not be "our" answer. All that is over, clearly seen now as vanity and folly as we see photo and video scenes of pollution and biological destruction from all over the World.

 

It will be an answer from Nature.

 

As we are part of Nature, we are part of this answer.

 

And really, this is Taoism too - how to apply it.

 

Also - never forget - we are what we ate. There is not one cell in our body not made of "food".

 

The eyes that see this, the brain that organizes it - made of this "food".

 

That is the process that has been taken over by Industry - the production of manageable and partial human beings.

 

That is what all the industrialized destruction was in trade for, and not merely the relative profits gained by all the little pirates who gained the concession for their part of it all.

 

Without government subsidies,for example, a McDonald's hamburger would cost around $200.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Karl]

The elephant in the room is Industry.

 

These people who put this all in place were Industrious.

 

By abstraction and greed (and many other trained thinking defects) they have gone out of balance from Natural Order.

 

Their "science" has been an relativistic exploration of profit and efficiency, not reality and truth, and it is strange that for so much work they have produced very little knowledge of Natural Order at all.

 

Human being will not control Nature or change it.

 

But if we surrender unto it, we have so much opportunity to discover what Natural Order is, and what is our place in this Natural Order.

 

That will answer the issue of "what" and "how" to eat.

 

It will not be "our" answer. All that is over, clearly seen now as vanity and folly as we see photo and video scenes of pollution and biological destruction from all over the World.

 

It will be an answer from Nature.

 

As we are part of Nature, we are part of this answer.

 

And really, this is Taoism too - how to apply it.

 

Also - never forget - we are what we ate. There is not one cell in our body not made of "food".

 

The eyes that see this, the brain that organizes it - made of this "food".

 

That is the process that has been taken over by Industry - the production of manageable and partial human beings.

 

That is what all the industrialized destruction was in trade for, and not merely the relative profits gained by all the little pirates who gained the concession for their part of it all.

 

Without government subsidies,for example, a McDonald's hamburger would cost around $200.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

The elephant in the room is Government who is responsible for taking the money of the honest, productive companies and individuals then redistributing it to its crony friends. It isn't 'industry' per se, but those that pull the strings in public office.

 

Everywhere the government goes misery, death and despair follow.

[Marblehead]

Yes, we are omnivores; we can eat meat. But:

 

-  being an 'omnivore' doesn't mean we have to eat both meat and plants. It's a choice; we absolutely do not need meat to live and be healthy

I have no argument with this.  Choice.

[thelerner]

Human being will not control Nature or change it.

 

 

Without government subsidies,for example, a McDonald's hamburger would cost around $200.

Nature is a pretty big subject, but when it comes to controlling and changing animal species and crops mankind's gotten really good at it. And thats a good thing because its kept millions, maybe billions from starving.  For millennia we've selectively bred  animals and crops until they're almost unrecognizable from there original state.   I'm not talking GMO either (though I'm the rare bird that pro GMO w/ certain caveats), I'm talking selective breeding done way before modern genetics were known about, though with genetics accelerated our abilities.  

 

 

I tend to doubt each hamburger would cost $200.  They sell about 6 million burgers a year a day!   A $200 subsidy would cost.. let see, one billion 200 million each day or four hundred thirty eight billion a year.  That seems high to me. 

[dust]

I have no argument with this.  Choice.

 

Gah.. I was kinda hoping to draw someone out for a little argument. Seems that nobody wants to get too deep into this subject.

 

As you may be aware by now, I do eat meat, and by no means do I believe that my diet is entirely healthy or balanced.. and I know it's not 100% local. But feel it important to keep a discussion going (at least in my head!) as to the benefits and damages our modern meat-heavy omnivorous lifestyles have on ourselves and the wider environment...

Edited August 20, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

But I had no disagreement with you.  Hehehe.

 

I stopped eating red (mammal) meat about fifteen years ago but I do still eat fish and foul.As we age we don't need as much protein as we did when we were young and our body and especially our muscles were growing.  It is also suggested that we need lots of protein while our brain is developing.

[Karl]

But I had no disagreement with you.  Hehehe.

 

I stopped eating red (mammal) meat about fifteen years ago but I do still eat fish and foul.As we age we don't need as much protein as we did when we were young and our body and especially our muscles were growing.  It is also suggested that we need lots of protein while our brain is developing.

 

 

I remember the days I would salivate over a big plate of roasted meat. These days I find myself pretty revolted if the plate contains more than a few ounces of meet. Like you it's mainly just chicken and fish these days with the odd bit of lamb in a curry. It's not a conscious health thing either, I just cannot eat it anymore. I don't drink much either, the odd beer and glass of wine.

 

[Aithrobates]

Yes. It is about how animals are raised, how plants are grown. And so that is more of a collective political problem thant an ethic individual one. After all food industry is that, an industry, like all the others.

 

Construction workers die all the times of accidents, proportionally they die more than soldiers. Should we go living in the forest, avoid buldings to avoid that ? The true question is what to do about it ? Assume that we can nothing ? Build our own homes (but again how are the construction materials are produced ? is not this wood out of a rare tree, etc... its endless...) ? Join or support the union that protects the workers ?

 

So the problem is not specific to food. It's about how our industries, food, construction, or whaterver, are managed. I'm not trying to propose a solution here: socialism, small scale units of productions, non-corporate non-governemental captitalism, etc... (Of course I have my own opinion, but that's not the point). I just want to put my finger on the fact that the way we produce everything is problematic and causes animal/human/environemental/... suffering.

 

Even the network we are using right now to speak about this issue is fluelled by an insane amounts of energy. It need oil and coal to work, it generates pollution. Did you see those documentaries about whole mountains being destoyed in order to exploit the coal needed to feed the data centers ?

[Karl]

Yes. It is about how animals are raised, how plants are grown. And so that is more of a collective political problem thant an ethic individual one. After all food industry is that, an industry, like all the others.

 

Construction workers die all the times of accidents, proportionally they die more than soldiers. Should we go living in the forest, avoid buldings to avoid that ? The true question is what to do about it ? Assume that we can nothing ? Build our own homes (but again how are the construction materials are produced ? is not this wood out of a rare tree, etc... its endless...) ? Join or support the union that protects the workers ?

 

So the problem is not specific to food. It's about how our industries, food, construction, or whaterver, are managed. I'm not trying to propose a solution here: socialism, small scale units of productions, non-corporate non-governemental captitalism, etc... (Of course I have my own opinion, but that's not the point). I just want to put my finger on the fact that the way we produce everything is problematic and causes animal/human/environemental/... suffering.

 

Even the network we are using right now to speak about this issue is fluelled by an insane amounts of energy. It need oil and coal to work, it generates pollution. Did you see those documentaries about whole mountains being destoyed in order to exploit the coal needed to feed the data centers ?

 

I think you have to include the current way governments are responsible for unnecessary environmental damage, pollution and the the mis-allocation of precious resources (most particularly people) as a minimum. Then there is the social construct in which a group of giant global corporations have seized control over those governments and are suppressing the minds of children in order that they become obedient serfs serving those self same corporations as both workers and consumers. It deprives all of us of the inventive, imaginative energy of those minds to push new boundaries.

 

 

If that wasn't bad enough these entities have propagated and arms race which has wasted trillions of dollars of productive effort which then gets unleashed on states which refuse to go along with their plans. They have controlled competition and potential innovations to such a degree that we may have completely lost the ability to invent better, less harmful methods of production in order to service the particular industries we have become locked into serving. Be it corporate health, energy production, arms, giant pharma, Agra, Banking or whatever, these corporations are soulless monsters that have created stagnant, self destructive economy which has enslaved us all and spreads misery across the globe.

 

We need Government to give up their support for these monsters-and make no mistake we are all, in the end, in someway supporting this entire thing, we derive our living and everything else from its propagation. The only way we can free ourselves is to stop mindlessly accepting every media message, institutional schooling, political policy as if it was 'just how it has to be'.

 

I also do not want to propose a specific political system, but communism was worse and democracy-such as it is, is failing and the Western civilisation is inching to the brink of its inevitable end. We have tried central Governments, the USA even tried to limit the Government but it just grew anyway. Once the cancer of Government is created it swallows everything eventually either rapidly in socialism, or more slowly in democratic systems. I don't think we can allow Governments and states to exist as they currently do. Our world no longer requires them, they are dangerous. We may think the age of the Cold War is over, be we are once again moving towards the sort of conflict that would unleash nuclear weapons on us all. Its no longer unthinkable because many of these weapons are smaller battlefield weapons. Instead of MAD and the launch of a thousand ICBMs a nuclear war could be started on a much more limited, battlefield scale before progressing to the use of larger yield weapons. We could fall into nuclear annihilation without much effort at all, and our states and governments would take us there.

 

The kind of state lines and defences we once needed are no longer necessary, we need to go forward to a more distributed system with very local governance with strong private property laws. A kind of competitive market in governance and smaller, more distributed models-a bit like tribes. We have the technology now to make this a reality.

[dust]

Yes. It is about how animals are raised, how plants are grown. And so that is more of a collective political problem thant an ethic individual one. After all food industry is that, an industry, like all the others.

 

In a 'democracy' such as ours (whether you live in the USA or UK or almost anywhere else), the infrequent political vote does not carry nearly as much influence as the daily economic vote. What we choose to buy affects what the retailers choose to sell, which affects which producers are successful, the means of production, etc.

 

I refuse to place the blame solely on the political system; everyone is responsible, individually.

 

 

Construction workers die all the times of accidents, proportionally they die more than soldiers. Should we go living in the forest, avoid buldings to avoid that ? The true question is what to do about it ? Assume that we can nothing ? Build our own homes (but again how are the construction materials are produced ? is not this wood out of a rare tree, etc... its endless...) ? Join or support the union that protects the workers ?

 

Also an issue. I do not know the answer.

 

 

Even the network we are using right now to speak about this issue is fluelled by an insane amounts of energy. It need oil and coal to work, it generates pollution.

 

Again, with much of this we can still vote with our money.. or rather, with our lifestyle.

 

These things are too far gone for talk of collective political change to be of any use. Most people either don't know, or just don't care. Either way, the rich masses are not going to be talked out of their comfortable & extraordinarily wasteful lifestyles, and the rest are still going to want their phones and upgrades. I figure the only thing to do is "lead by example".

[Karl]

In a 'democracy' such as ours (whether you live in the USA or UK or almost anywhere else), the infrequent political vote does not carry nearly as much influence as the daily economic vote. What we choose to buy affects what the retailers choose to sell, which affects which producers are successful, the means of production, etc.

 

I refuse to place the blame solely on the political system; everyone is responsible, individually.

 

 

 

 

Also an issue. I do not know the answer.

 

 

 

 

Again, with much of this we can still vote with our money.. or rather, with our lifestyle.

 

These things are too far gone for talk of collective political change to be of any use. Most people either don't know, or just don't care. Either way, the rich masses are not going to be talked out of their comfortable & extraordinarily wasteful lifestyles, and the rest are still going to want their phones and upgrades. I figure the only thing to do is "lead by example".

 

Read my previous post as it ties in with what you are saying.

 

I might as well say this so that it's clear. Leading from example won't work, it's good that you think it might, but you will just be considered a bit odd and eccentric.

 

The reason everyone is buying into consumerism is that their critical thinking mechanism has been suppressed. That's why they obediently shuffle to jobs, watch the TV, get drunk, have a Pizza. They cheer on the state when it gives them stuff and grumble when it doesn't- as if the state were a God of provision. We are in a zoo in which the reasoning power of human minds has all but vanished. People are closer to animals than humans. They no longer think, they just consume whatever they are told to consume.

 

Think of fashion. It isn't organic. One moment we are in flared trousers and the next straight legged. Yet at no time did we ever find a shortage of the new fashion. How was it done ? Our ability to reason is removed during 12 years of state education. We become pliable like putty. The corporations need us to buy more stuff and they sow the seeds in the media ahead of time. We buy into a lifestyle story because we don't have the ability to say "I don't need this it won't give me anything more than I have today". Instead we obediently obey the call to buy and head for the local mall-where, hey presto to shelves are overflowing with the latest thing.

[dust]

Not sure how I missed your post but yes, it did make my post fairly redundant.

 

 

When I say "lead by example", I don't honestly expect that anyone is going to follow my example. In fact I know from experience that many people are uncomfortable around me. But there's no way I can do things the way the majority does. That spirit's just not in me (as I know it's not in most who frequent this forum).

 

In the end, there's no answer to it -- as we all should know by now, we cannot change the world; we cannot make everything happy and soft, we cannot make all the humans behave sensibly... and we probably shouldn't want to. But I don't feel like riding the current either.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"I tend to doubt each hamburger would cost $200"

-----

 

That info, and much more, is also in this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Food-Revolution-Your-World/dp/1573244872

 

-----

"As we age we don't need as much protein as we did when we were young and our body and especially our muscles were growing.  It is also suggested that we need lots of protein while our brain is developing."

-----

 

Too much protein is harmful to the brain and nervous system.

 

That's why "nutritionists" had previously recommended that americans should eat about 3 times as much of it as they actually needed.

 

Between the ammonia wastes produced, and the issue of the body recognizing and denaturing and eliminating proteins assembled by some other species, this has been producing all kinds of mental impairments as well as lesions - dead spots.

 

What are tumors made of?

 

Protein excess.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Karl]

Not sure how I missed your post but yes, it did make my post fairly redundant.

 

 

When I say "lead by example", I don't honestly expect that anyone is going to follow my example. In fact I know from experience that many people are uncomfortable around me. But there's no way I can do things the way the majority does. That spirit's just not in me (as I know it's not in most who frequent this forum).

 

In the end, there's no answer to it -- as we all should know by now, we cannot change the world; we cannot make everything happy and soft, we cannot make all the humans behave sensibly... and we probably shouldn't want to. But I don't feel like riding the current either.

 

Encourage the adoption of critical thinking and they will hear. Forget arguing facts and leading by example because they will remain deaf.

 

I'm not uncomfortable around you. I like free thinking original people. At one time everyone was like that.

[AussieTrees]

They stopped chasing the animals with spears and arrows.

After someone came up with the idea of raising animals for eating.

This is a good thing,well at least a Nuetral cause.

 

And mostly the farm animals are well cared for,yet there is sadness when they leave the farm.

Wild animals spared,well not really,at best diminished and displaced.

 

Maybe we could all try to become air airarian,haven't heard much about these practices for many years.

Return of Airarian Knights.

[Marblehead]

Ah!  Living off only the morning's dew.  I've heard those stories.

[Karl]

Ah!  Living off only the morning's dew.  I've heard those stories.

 

I'll have my morning dew washed down with a lamb shank, fillet steak and a leg of pork with crackling and apple sauce. Other types of meat are available and will be eaten with relish....mmmmmm chicken.

[dust]

Mmm crackling.

 

At least you've got some fruit in there.

[Karl]

Mmm crackling.

 

At least you've got some fruit in there.

 

Everything in balance

[Marblehead]

And BTW, people are killing people for no good reason at all.  At least if we eat what is killed there was a purpose.

[Horus]

It's easy to play victim and blame other people, governments etc for controlling and poisoning us...but that is not taking responsibility.

 

All of the suffering, animal suffering, human suffering, environmental destruction blah, blah blah repeater all comes down to one thing alone.

 

The choice of humanity to sleep.

 

We chose long ago to "take a rest" from responsibility. And responsibility is about response-ability, not about a set of righteous rules we must follow or we are not responsible.

 

Humanity chose to sleep because taking full responsibility became tiring for us, too much spiritual work to do, too much to feel and respond to.

 

So, yes many creatures sadly die - but they do so in service to humanity.

 

All of the animals (at the soul group level, and many at individual level) know that things changed due to this decision made by humanity.

 

And when that decision was made, it was answered by the universe in the from of compassion...

 

So how can compassion answer said call with such suffering - well, it does not have that choice - it is "in compassion" for our free will.

 

But, all is well - both suffering and awareness lead to compassion.

 

Humanity never said it wanted to do it forever, so there is coming a time where it reverts unto light once more.

 

No, not religious dogmatic bullshit - simple wisdom gleaned straight from the face of Source.

 

There is no right choice...vegan, vegetarian, omnivore...

 

There is just causation.

 

Eat animal products and you ingest pain, suffering, and the essence of non-responsible action.

 

But, to some many, pain is easier than facing the light of truth to who we really are.

 

You cannot blame anyone else for that...well you can, but we all like to rant about government oppression.

 

I have compassion for those in positions of leadership, for they deal every day with the vicious lack of awareness of the mass of humanity. The mass of humanity would destroy itself and everyone along with it if left to their own devices.

 

I'm not about to join the eugenics campaign myself, but I understand fully why those in the position to do so are pursuing it - and meat, dairy, pesticides and the life destroying principles of most of this societies status quo are all there as markers of our own sleep.

 

Its a very simple equation - choose sleep and suffering will eventually lead you to compassion or chose compassion right from the start and you are there.

 

Every animal is waiting in compassion, for they spiritually know that this is largely about us.

 

There is a very special construct encapsulated within the human beings - while they are lost - all is well...but, they wait reflecting ourselves back to us until we are ready.

 

Until then the animal holocaust will continue to make the human holocaust look insignificant.

 

Every animal that suffers in the name of mis-led human freewill adds more dross to the earth grid, making our ascension more difficult.

 

But that is not a bad thing when the majority shun responsibility, don't want it, and do not want to ascend - it's a convenient and compassionate tool.

 

Every drop of round-up that destroys ecosystems, poisons nervous systems and reduces vibrational frequency adds more dross to the system - but that is the underlying cause - sleep, so why is it bad?

 

It's not - it just is...

 

Hey pigs like to eat stuff in shit before and after rolling in it - it's not bad, just contextual opinion.

 

But lets not mince words...

 

Animal flesh is poison, it kills you slowly and makes you very very profitable and easy to control.

Pesticides are poison, and they make your nervous system fit for sleep.

Murder of another being is perfect for debilitating the clarity of the earth grid - and you get the karma whether you sliced the throat or paid someone else to rip that cows hide off while he's still alive so the salughter house keeps to time quoter per slaughter - the karma is still yours - perfect for sleep.

 

Vaccination with its cocktail of terror inducing spiritual warfare is just great for the sleep too.

 

My point is that none of this is bad, there is nothing but unconditional free will and acceptance from the "creator" - so it's up to you and you alone.

 

To be or not to be, to sleep or not to sleep, to kill and eat or not to...

 

Who gives a shit!

 

I don't care what anyone else does, judgement is just as sleep inducing...

 

Some people think that writing me writing in broken sentences is annoying and I should use paragraphs - but I really don't give a shit, this is my experience.

 

Some people think you cant get enough protein from fruit and veg - who cares what uneducated sleepy knobs think?

 

Some people even think you cant get enough calories from fruit and veg - snore.......

 

Some people think its great tapping the power of a bulls blood and vampirising it to make them stronger - who gives a flying fuck?

 

Some people think that because the world is so fucked up we should forget living responsibly, and forget even trying to live a healthy lifestyle free of cruelty and toxicity - who gives a shit...

 

And by that, to be clear, I mean we are the prime creator in our universe. It's an illusion that there is any other you are perceiving, its all you - as a means to experience - because without said constructive illusion there would be no experience period.

 

We "fall" into incarnation with a suggestion from our self to ourselves. Some choose to maintain awareness through the process, some choose to live through the senses and let awareness sleep to them.

 

Either way there is still no judgement, and we allow ourselves to be as we will...

 

But that does not mean you cannot change the world....one individual can change everything.

 

Its just that most of us think we need to change the world we see - believing that the hologram is the real world.

 

You need only turn the light around to tap the true power of manifestation - anything else is simple leakage and exceptionally good for inducing drowsiness which begets sleep.

 

So, all judgements aside - is murdering an animal and consuming its toxic flesh filled with adrenaline going to lead toward awareness or sleep.

 

Sound more like a satanic rite than a gastronomic requirement to me...