Riding the Phoenix to Penglai

[quantumdragon]

The reason I joined Dao Bums was to have conversation with other practitioners about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai.  If you haven't read it, please get a copy from http://yirenpress.com/ for $19.95.  Jill Gonet translates the poems masterfully, and provides extremely useful commentary and suggestions (for females and males) from her own authentic, thorough, ongoing experience. 

 

There is a lot of interference getting back to Penglai from now (page 6 and interested people have already given up on this thread). Any suggestions about how to get back to topic? Do we need to begin fresh with a newly titled topic? Should there be some kind of password in order to make a comment? For example, "The third word on page 55 is..."

Is the consensus then, ( from  Pengali page 5 and 6) we have made our way out the the " belly" of this particular  whale? Now  we can move onto a discussion of Pg. 55 Fire. How to regulate, with persevering perception of the ancestral knowing,  the spiritual pivot? Is this what you  had in mind Stone to Jade?

[quantumdragon]

Is the consensus then, ( from  Pengali page 5 and 6) we have made our way out the the " belly" of this particular  whale? Now  we can move onto a discussion of Pg. 55 Fire. How to regulate, with persevering perception of the ancestral knowing,  the spiritual pivot? Is this what you  had in mind Stone to Jade?  Anyone have ideas? I am new to this type of language as you might see from my previous posts. 

[opendao]

I don’t consider myself a great master, but I do think that I am a truehearted student of the Dao and a sincere internal cultivator. 

 

I am so fortunate to have live teachers 

 

Just curious who are they?

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 13 Aug 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

 

Just curious who are they?

 

One of my live teachers is Wudao Zhenzi, internal elixir school 13 generation lineage holder. At this point, I do not have permission from my other teachers to publish their names on the internet.

 

I am also curious about your experience in Taoist training.  Who are your teachers? 

[opendao]

I am also curious about your experience in Taoist training.  Who are your teachers? 

 

the Patriarchs of Yu Xian Pai and Wu-Liu Pai schools, and their indoor Western students. There is a big school in Russia, Daode Center (www.daode.ru), where it's possible to learn genuine teachings of these schools. So I've been learning there for a long time, and every year it becomes more and more interesting. Based on that I'm very sceptical about people here who has never even seen a real Teacher: they don't know what they missed 

[Stone into Jade]

Is the consensus then, ( from  Pengali page 5 and 6) we have made our way out the the " belly" of this particular  whale? Now  we can move onto a discussion of Pg. 55 Fire. How to regulate, with persevering perception of the ancestral knowing,  the spiritual pivot? Is this what you  had in mind Stone to Jade?

When I referred to pg 6, it was the pg 6 of this post thread. I have to wait until next week as I have out of town company right now.

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 13 Aug 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

 

The Patriarchs of Yu Xian Pai and Wu-Liu Pai schools, and their indoor Western students.  … So I've been learning there for a long time. 

 

 

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Danyang who was Sun Bu-Er’s husband.  Both of them were students of Wang Chong-Yang, the founder of complete reality school.  I am so delighted to hear that you have been studying internal elixir cultivation from the complete reality school.

 

Are you teaching Taoist practices in Vancouver, BC?  

[opendao]

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Danyang who was Sun Bu-Er’s husband.  Both of them were students of Wang Chong-Yang, the founder of complete reality school.  I am so delighted to hear that you have been studying internal elixir cultivation from the complete reality school.

 

Are you teaching Taoist practices in Vancouver, BC?  

 

Yes, I teach Daogong (Neigong) and Yu Xian Pai.

 

Speaking about women alchemy as we know it and practice, we have quite a lot of women in the school, and also we received the complete method of Wu-Liu Pai: the beginning is the same as for men, the real difference comes later, and the general process doesn't really follow the way written in Gonet's book, especially where she speaks about "sexual energy", Eros etc: postheaven jing is not what is used in Neidan.

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 14 Aug 2015 - 09:04, said:

 

Yes, I teach Daogong (Neigong) and Yu Xian Pai.

 

Speaking about women alchemy as we know it and practice, we have quite a lot of women in the school, and also we received the complete method of Wu-Liu Pai: the beginning is the same as for men, the real difference comes later, and the general process doesn't really follow the way written in Gonet's book, especially where she speaks about "sexual energy", Eros etc: postheaven jing is not what is used in Neidan. 

 

I am so delighted to hear that you teach Daogong (Neigong) and Yu Xian Pai.  

 

I agree with you that the Neidan (Internal Elixir) formation is related to cultivation of the original Jing, primordial qi and the primal spirit-Shen.

 

There are many schools in Taoist internal elixir cultivation practice.  Majority of the Taoist schools all agree that the principles of internal cultivation are 炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind), 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit-shen), and 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao). 

 

It seems that you read some of the excerpt of Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, but you have not read the book.  When I read Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, particularly the section of Taming the dragon, I did not see where Ms. Gonet says that the postnatal Jing is used in Neinan.  I did see how Ms. Gonet emphasizes that the appropriate management of postnatal Jing-“sexual energy” is an important part of process in transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi. 

 

I do believe that you have deep experiential understanding on male Neigong and Yu Xian Pai practice.  I would like to visit your class and learn from you about Yu Xian Pai practice.

 

But it is interesting to hear Guys say: “we received the complete method of female elixir cultivation.”  Regarding female internal alchemy, it would be great to hear advice and instructions from experienced and successful practitioners from the Purity and Tranquility school but not Guy’s assumptions and projections.   

Edited August 15, 2015 by Xuanming

[opendao]

I agree with you that the Neidan (Internal Elixir) formation is related to cultivation of the original Jing, primordial qi and the primal spirit-Shen.

 

yes, and yuan jing = preheaven jing

 

There are many schools in Taoist internal elixir cultivation practice.  Majority of the Taoist schools all agree that the principles of internal cultivation are 炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind), 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit-shen), and 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao). 

 

It seems that you read some of the excerpt of Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, but you have not read the book.  When I read Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, particularly the section of Taming the dragon, I did not see where Ms. Gonet says that the postnatal Jing is used in Neinan.  I did see how Ms. Gonet emphasizes that the appropriate management of postnatal Jing-“sexual energy” is an important part of process in transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi. 

 

And postnatal cannot be converted to anything primordial, so I see no parallels with what we learn and teach. 

 

But it is interesting to hear Guys say: “we received the complete method of female elixir cultivation.”  Regarding female internal alchemy, it would be great to hear advice and instructions from experienced and successful practitioners from the Purity and Tranquility school but not Guy’s assumptions and projections.   

 

I understand your sarcasm, but by 'we' I meant instructors in our school, some of them are women. So, believe you or not, but instructors know what they teach, because they see that "successful practitioners" in their female students. Without it there is no sense to claim such things, you're right.

[Stone into Jade]

Open Dao, I wish to understand in order to deepen my understanding of my own cultivation experience and have not differentiated my energetic experiences according to the categories of prenatal and postnatal qi and/or jing. This understanding could be very important for me to understand at this time.  During your practice, how do you differentiate these qualitative differences? Thank you.

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 14 Aug 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

 

…, postnatal cannot be converted to anything primordial, so I see no parallels with what we learn and teach. 

 

Thank you for sharing your understanding on internal elixir cultivation and for introducing the teaching from Yu Xian Pai practice.  

 

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Dan-Yang who directly received transmission and blessing from his teacher, Wang Chong-Yang.  He was also the Dragon Gate founder, Qiu Chu-Ji’s mentor.  Transforming the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen, is the unique practice of the complete reality school. 

 

If you do not know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi, your pre-heaven Jing can easily become postnatal Jing and leak out. 

 

Lao Zi, Lü Chun-Yang, Wang Chong-Yang, Ma Dan-Yang, Sun Bu-Er, all know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen. 

 

In my view, the complete reality school teaches the main following training:

1. Cultivate the body--with authentic Qi cultivation to increase the awareness level of the internal body for internal healing and transformation, including reversing the internal energy flow from outward to inward, stop leaking original Jing and primordial Qi; heal health conditions, and transform unhealthy behavior such as sexual addition, or substance addiction, etc. This involves the first two steps of internal cultivation a)炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind);
2. Cultivating the mind--with peaceful mind meditation and quiet sitting to transform the conscious mind and ego to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit; this is the third step c) 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit--shen);
3. The primal spirit-authentic self returns to oneness with the Tao, obtains spiritual freedom, returns to the true home of heaven and achieves spiritual immortality.  This is the fourth step d) 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao). 

When you arrived on earth after your birth, you started your postnatal life.  Everything you do including what you eat, what you say, what you think, and what you do all can affect the condition and status of your primal spirit.  The postnatal transformation serves the growth and development of the primal spirit--this is the core practice of Taoist spirituality and immortality. 

 

Your statement “postnatal cannot be converted to anything primordial” raised my concerns about the teaching of Yu Xian Pai today, because your statement suggests that the current Yu Xian Pai does not know how to transform postnatal energy to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit.  Where is the spirit of Ma Dan-Yang in the Yu Xian Pai today?  

Edited August 15, 2015 by Xuanming

[quantumdragon]

 

Thank you for sharing your understanding on internal elixir cultivation and for introducing the teaching from Yu Xian Pai practice.  

 

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Dan-Yang who directly received transmission and blessing from his teacher, Wang Chong-Yang.  He was also the Dragon Gate founder, Qiu Chu-Ji’s mentor.  Transforming the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen, is the unique practice of the complete reality school. 

 

If you do not know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi, your pre-heaven Jing can easily become postnatal Jing and leak out. 

 

Lao Zi, Lü Chun-Yang, Wang Chong-Yang, Ma Dan-Yang, Sun Bu-Er, all know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen. 

 

In my view, the complete reality school teaches the main following training:

1. Cultivate the body--with authentic Qi cultivation to increase the awareness level of the internal body for internal healing and transformation, including reversing the internal energy flow from outward to inward, stop leaking original Jing and primordial Qi; heal health conditions, and transform unhealthy behavior such as sexual addition, or substance addiction, etc. This involves the first two steps of internal cultivation a)炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind);
2. Cultivating the mind--with peaceful mind meditation and quiet sitting to transform the conscious mind and ego to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit; this is the third step c) 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit--shen);
3. The primal spirit-authentic self returns to oneness with the Tao, obtains spiritual freedom, returns to the true home of heaven and achieves spiritual immortality.  This is the fourth step d) 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao.

Thank you so much for this brilliant outline. I have been pondering how to write about my practice answering with words used on this forum. I did not experience the transformations in a linear fashion. My training followed a scientific set standard  of formulary practice but my experience early on began weaving elements of the steps much more like how art creates itself all at once. Then the artist subtracts , adds etc so the  art  may live. An example of this  would be the elusive Golden Flower. As soon as I heard that phrase I WANTED THAT RIGHT NOW!  So we see my reproductive system in  postnatal consciousness conditioned by Western commercialism decided this was something to go get and possess this  blinded me to what it actually was.  Ironically in retrospect , I do not even remember why I wanted this Golden Flower( concept) other than everyone else seemed to desire it why  shouldn't I have this too. Then I became  more  focused in practicing, I learned to  suspend thinking, withdraw my energy from external  projections, I released a need to know or label my experiences. With the  help of my teachers I learned to harvest my ego ( it is still around ) for fueling firings. I do not know where I am in this process for me it is both somewhat linear and outside of time simultaneously.Where is  quantum dragon on the map of evolutionary consciousness......I cannot say. I am at the beginning still recalling the mind and also flying/ riding. I use the term riding to describe how my practice has changed recently where I suspend my conscious mind, ener deep into the Xuan state and the Void where my original spirit practices my body. It feels like riding or flying in that  there in that place I cannot point out on a map is  the energetic scaffolding just right for me, in this body at this time and  in the no-time. I release the need to control or possess anything at all and without effort my body rides/floats or  flies according to  the  wisdom that is mind but not my conscious mind. My conscious mind's job is to observe the wonder of this extraordinary limitless wisdom and  later , if necessary, put together some words to impart the concept of the experience. 

The   joke / trick  played on my conscious mind/ postnatal ego conditioned state was from my very first practice the Golden Flower was there showing itself in many different ways. Much  like  hide and seek with a child it playfully taught me to learn  how to learn to surrender to the unborn mother of all. 

[damdao]

I copy something discussed some threads ago, from Longmenpai teachings

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38329-too-much-jing-is-an-issue/page-3?hl=longmentao#entry625243

 

 

"Question-Answer about the two kinds of Jing

Question: "In the Taoist practice, when it's time to " pick the remedy "(cai yao) to transform it into a cinnabar pill (lian dan), it is important to use Qi and not Jing. What is the difference between the two?

Answer: "This question is important and should be clearly analyzed. You should know that Jing and Qi have a common source. Qi is the source of Jing, it turns into Jing. The Qi we are talking about is the pre-celestial Qi ,called Original Qi 元 炁 (yuan qi). After Original Qi is transformed into Jing, it is divided into two types: the first type of Jing is Original Jing 元 精 (yuan jing) which has no form and no shape, it is devoid of any Post-celestial substances. To gather it (or harvest it) allows to generate cinnabar. Alchemical texts calls it "pure water source" (qing shui yuan). The second type is the Post-celestial Jing, it is made of substance, it has a form and a shape. Alchemical texts call it " turbid water source" (chong shui yuan). With the latter type of Jing we can't generate  cinnabar. If one stubbornly tries, it will generate an "illusory cinnabar" 幻 丹 (Huan Dan) which is meant to be lost anyway.

Some Taoists do not know the difference between the two types of Jing. They think that to cultivate Jing is to cultivate semen, and if when there is desire semen is not emitted, it returns inside and adds to what is called a "fire of thoughts."  Not knowing that semen is a Post-celestial substance not only it will strengthen the fire, but in addition it can not be cultivated to generate Genuine Qi (zhen qi). The Wuzhen Pian 悟真 篇 (Zhang Ziyang) said: "What is visible should not be used, which that can be used should not be visible." Once semen returns inside, it goes into the bladder rather than in the Dan Tian and it will not take long before it is emitted with urine.

When Taoists say " cultivate Jing to change into Qi", the Jing they are talking about is the Pre-celestial Original Jing. To cultivate it and change it, means that we make the Original spirit 元 神 (yuan shen) and  the Original Qi (yuan qi) mix together and we nurture them until they freeze without dissolving and becomes the "cinnabar".

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38329-too-much-jing-is-an-issue/page-3?hl=longmentao#entry625243

trad.: YiYinYiYang

[opendao]

Thank you for sharing your understanding on internal elixir cultivation and for introducing the teaching from Yu Xian Pai practice.  

 

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Dan-Yang who directly received transmission and blessing from his teacher, Wang Chong-Yang.  He was also the Dragon Gate founder, Qiu Chu-Ji’s mentor.  Transforming the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen, is the unique practice of the complete reality school. 

 

no, it's not unique. All traditional Neidan schools have it. I'm speaking about yuan jing of course. Sexual jing, postheaven jing, is not used in Longmen as well.

 

If you do not know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi, your pre-heaven Jing can easily become postnatal Jing and leak out. 

 

Lao Zi, Lü Chun-Yang, Wang Chong-Yang, Ma Dan-Yang, Sun Bu-Er, all know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen. 

 

sure. But they know as well that such Jing has to be Xiantian (preheaven).

 

 

In my view, the complete reality school teaches the main following training:

1. Cultivate the body--with authentic Qi cultivation to increase the awareness level of the internal body for internal healing and transformation, including reversing the internal energy flow from outward to inward, stop leaking original Jing and primordial Qi; heal health conditions, and transform unhealthy behavior such as sexual addition, or substance addiction, etc. This involves the first two steps of internal cultivation a)炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind);
2. Cultivating the mind--with peaceful mind meditation and quiet sitting to transform the conscious mind and ego to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit; this is the third step c) 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit--shen);
3. The primal spirit-authentic self returns to oneness with the Tao, obtains spiritual freedom, returns to the true home of heaven and achieves spiritual immortality.  This is the fourth step d) 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao). 

 

That's all Qigong that has no relation to Neidan of any traditional school.

 

When you arrived on earth after your birth, you started your postnatal life.  Everything you do including what you eat, what you say, what you think, and what you do all can affect the condition and status of your primal spirit.  

 

no, it doesn't, such things affect xin-mind only.

 

The postnatal transformation serves the growth and development of the primal spirit--this is the core practice of Taoist spirituality and immortality. 

 

no, such way nor spirituality, nor immortality cannot be achieved, or all people would become immortals through the natural "postnatal transformation".

 

Your statement “postnatal cannot be converted to anything primordial” raised my concerns about the teaching of Yu Xian Pai today, because your statement suggests that the current Yu Xian Pai does not know how to transform postnatal energy to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit.  Where is the spirit of Ma Dan-Yang in the Yu Xian Pai today?  

 

Everything is good with the "spirit of Ma Dan Yang", real one and not some fantasy one, as well as with the results people get in Yuxianpai school. So better focus on yourself and ask yourself why you don't understand basic things I'm talking about. 

[opendao]

Open Dao, I wish to understand in order to deepen my understanding of my own cultivation experience and have not differentiated my energetic experiences according to the categories of prenatal and postnatal qi and/or jing. This understanding could be very important for me to understand at this time.  During your practice, how do you differentiate these qualitative differences? Thank you.

 

You don't need to differentiate the experience to practice. All you need is to follow the method, as explained by your teacher. 

Xiantian-Houtian is an important concept, it's possible to get the initial understanding by reading scriptures, but by doing usual Qigong exercises you won't be able to grasp Xiantian.

[opendao]

I copy something discussed some threads ago, from Longmenpai teachings

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38329-too-much-jing-is-an-issue/page-3?hl=longmentao#entry625243

 

yes, a good one, and it also confirms that in Longmen masters know that real Dan is about preheaven jing, not about sexual jing.

Edited August 15, 2015 by opendao

[voidisyinyang]

I copy something discussed some threads ago, from Longmenpai teachings

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38329-too-much-jing-is-an-issue/page-3?hl=longmentao#entry625243

 

 

Once semen returns inside, it goes into the bladder rather than in the Dan Tian and it will not take long before it is emitted with urine.

 

That doesn't have to be the case.

 

The Quick Fire method is referred to in the HuiMing Ching which the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book relies on.

 

Only the Quick Fire method has the power to convert the reproductive fluid back into yin jing energy (hormones).

 

So the  Quick Fire method is the standing active exercise - the thighs parallel to ground ideally - so when the legs are vibrating 7 times per second this is the Theta REM brain wave that activates the Yuan Qi of the heart.

 

The deep breathing activates the vagus nerve which then sublimates the cerebrospinal fluid up to the brain - including the serotonin of the lower body.

 

At ejaculation the dopamine energy is switched as a vagus nerve trigger to the stress sympathetic nervous system that spikes the cortisol stress hormone.

 

So internal orgasm does not have that ejaculation switch - instead it is an internal emission that stays in the vagus nerve, just as with female orgasm.

 

When the hormones as yin jing energy "feed the brain" which is the pineal gland, as the emitter of yuan qi, converting or ionizing the hormones into yin qi or yang jing energy. Then through Emptiness meditation purification the yuan shen that normally emits out of the eyes (but is turned around towards the pineal gland) is then increased in energy by the increased energy from the pineal gland.  This overflow of cerebrospinal fluid then activates the left side vagus nerve which goes to the right side of the heart which is the source of the Yuan Qi energy, thereby increasing the yuan qi.

 

This is also referred to as the Green Dragon and White Tiger copulation since the Green Dragon is from the eyes closed in meditation - the yuan shen returns to the liver (green dragon) and the yuan shen at this stage converts the yin jing into yang jing - yin qi energy. So it is the power of the Green Dragon that then converts the reproductive fluid into yin qi energy. The White Tiger is the yuan jing energy being restored. Master Wang Liping says it takes 6 hours of full lotus a day for a year to restore yuan jing energy.

 

That fusion is the ambrosia in the cerebrospinal fluid now ionized with qi and shen energy - and it flows out of the sinus cavity by the tongue against the roof of the mouth which activates the vagus nerve. This ambrosia is swallowed and the qi and shen then is absorbed into the lower tan tien - and that is how the yuan jing energy is increased and how the internal heat is increased - the tummo or N/om energy.

 

The anal flexing is the lower magpie bridge that like the tongue against the roof of the mouth, connects the front and back channels to also sublimate the reproductive fluid back into yin jing (hormonal) energy. So this is another reason why the standing active exercise is crucial since it flexes the largest muscle in the body - the glutes.

[quantumdragon]

no, it's not unique. All traditional Neidan schools have it. I'm speaking about yuan jing of course. Sexual jing, postheaven jing, is not used in Longmen as well.

 

 

sure. But they know as well that such Jing has to be Xiantian (preheaven).

 

 

That's all Qigong that has no relation to Neidan of any traditional school.

 

 

no, it doesn't, such things affect xin-mind only.

 

 

no, such way nor spirituality, nor immortality cannot be achieved, or all people would become immortals through the natural "postnatal transformation".

 

 

Everything is good with the "spirit of Ma Dan Yang", real one and not some fantasy one, as well as with the results people get in Yuxianpai school. So better focus on yourself and ask yourself why you don't understand basic things I'm talking about. 

The  blueprint or matrix to all that has been written is available by means not described on this page.  Do we all agree our  Organs contain all the physical DNA and spiritual DNA ( so to speak)  we need as humans to  "Complete" ourselves?  The extraordinary  Yin Organ of the female which no male possesses,  knows how to harmonise with the Dao, she knows by her innate nature how  to create a body for the Original Spirit. She houses the Original Spirit in its prenatal state while the body is  naturally constructed. Inside the curious organ of the female reproductive system is  always the prenatal energies/intelligence/ information. Do you believe is is difficult to reverse engineer the path from body to spirit and back to the Tao  by  entering  the Mind of this organ , in essence penetrating oneself by  surrendering to what is  already right there inside of  we women?  I am not saying we women  do not have our work to do to purify, polish, fire, bath etc. I am not boasting here either. I am saying what has not been said  out loud in a very long time. Something that needs to have a voice in all of this technique, and science. Look at the images of sages with distended abdomens mimicking pregnancy.  What  do those images tell you? 

Oh, and opendao please before you come  tubing into my living room again seeking this secret please  amplify your "DE" of respect and honor, general manners of  this world.  You were gently escorted out this time. If you need further instructions on who you will meet next time please see Riding the Phoenix to Pengali , page 46, line 6 of the poem. 

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 15 Aug 2015 -, 01:57 PM, said:

 

Everything is good with the "spirit of Ma Dan Yang", real one and not some fantasy one, as well as with the results people get in Yuxianpai school. So better focus on yourself and ask yourself why you don't understand basic things I'm talking about.

 

Thank you so much for your advice, Opendao.  Following your suggestion, I focused on myself and ask myself why I don’t understand basic things you are talking about.  I just figured out that Opendao is extremely smart!  So it takes more efforts for Xuanming to understand your basic things.  I would greatly appreciate it if you would let me know if I understand your basic things, as follows:

1. You believe that internal elixir used yuan Jing (original Jing) not sexual Jing. You agree that the yuan Jing (original Jing) can be declined or drained out by excess sexual activity and sexual energy flow outward and leak out.  Am I right about this?     
2. You do not believe the path can be reversed or you do not believe that the sexual energy or the energy of reproductive organ can be transformed to authentic Qi. Is this your understanding? 
3. You believe that the internal elixir cultivation has no any relationship with the principles of internal cultivation and stated: “That's all Qigong that has no relation to Neidan of any traditional school.”  My teacher is the 13th generation lineage holder of the internal elixir school.  And my teacher told me that it is important to understand the meaning and steps of the principles of internal cultivation.  It seems that my teacher is not in your neidan school list.  It seems that you think that neidan is not Qigong and not related to authentic Qi cultivation. Is this your understanding? 
4. Xuanming, on 15 Aug 2015 - 11:53, said: When you arrived on earth after your birth, you started your postnatal life.  Everything you do including what you eat, what you say, what you think, and what you do all can affect the condition and status of your primal spirit.  Opendao said: “no, it doesn't, such things affect xin-mind only.”  For example, if you have sexual addiction, or project angers to others or hate others and cause harm to others, you think these kind of behavior affect your mind only but do not affect the status of your primal spirit.  Is this your belief and understanding? 
5. Xuanming, on 15 Aug 2015 - 11:53, said:  The postnatal transformation serves the growth and development of the primal spirit--this is the core practice of Taoist spirituality and immortality. Opendao said: “no, such way nor spirituality, nor immortality cannot be achieved, or all people would become immortals through the natural "postnatal transformation".  What’s wrong if all people would become immortals with great health and no sufferings?  Do you think that only yourself can become an immortal but not any others? 
6. Have you read Innersoundqigong’s post?  How do you think about the postnatal sexual energy transformation? 

Edited August 16, 2015 by Xuanming

[opendao]

 

Thank you so much for your advice, Opendao.  Following your suggestion, I focused on myself and ask myself why I don’t understand basic things you are talking about.  I just figured out that Opendao is extremely smart!  So it takes more efforts for Xuanming to understand your basic things.  I would greatly appreciate it if you would let me know if I understand your basic things, as follows:

1. You believe that internal elixir used yuan Jing (original Jing) not sexual Jing. You agree that the yuan Jing (original Jing) can be declined or drained out by excess sexual activity and sexual energy flow and leak out.  Am I right about this?     

 

yes

 

 

1. You do not believe the path can be reversed or you do not believe that the sexual energy or the energy of reproductive organ can be transformed to authentic Qi. Is this your understanding? 

 

it's impossible and has no sense to transform any kind of postheaven energy into anything preheaven.

 

The path can be reversed, but it's not about physical reversing.

 

 

1. You believe that the internal elixir cultivation has no any relationship with the principles of internal cultivation and stated: “That's all Qigong that has no relation to Neidan of any traditional school.”  My teacher is the 13th generation lineage holder of the internal elixir school.  And my teacher told me that it is important to understand the meaning and steps of the principles of internal cultivation.  It seems that my teacher is not in your neidan school list.  It seems that you think that neidan is not Qigong and not related to authentic Qi cultivation. Is this your understanding? 

 

No. Qigong works with Postheaven Qi, Neidan works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original.

 

If people teach Qigong, but explain the postheaven changes using the language of Neidan (dantian, heaven circuit, refining jing into qi etc) then they are in illusions, confused and fool others.

 

I have no idea about your teacher(s) so it's up to you to make any conclusions about what he/she teaches.

 

 

1. Xuanming, on 15 Aug 2015 - 11:53, said: When you arrived on earth after your birth, you started your postnatal life.  Everything you do including what you eat, what you say, what you think, and what you do all can affect the condition and status of your primal spirit.  Opendao said: “no, it doesn't, such things affect xin-mind only.”  For example, if you have sexual addiction, or project angers to others or hate others and cause harm to others, you think these kind of behavior affect your mind only but do not affect the status of your primal spirit.  Is this your belief and understanding? 

 

Yuan Shen, the primal spirit, is weak (Yin) and dormant. By continuous efforts in cleaning one's mind-Xin, it's possible to get changes in yuan shen, but it's impossible to get a real alchemical transformation, where Shen gets Yang and becomes Yangshen. So the status won't really change if you eat something good or say something good. If you do bad things the yin status also won't change and will still be yin.

 

Also, we need to remember about guishen, and how people become "pure Yin" - ghosts.

 

 

1. Xuanming, on 15 Aug 2015 - 11:53, said:  The postnatal transformation serves the growth and development of the primal spirit--this is the core practice of Taoist spirituality and immortality. Opendao said: “no, such way nor spirituality, nor immortality cannot be achieved, or all people would become immortals through the natural "postnatal transformation".  What’s wrong if all people would become immortals with great health and no sufferings?  Do you think that only yourself can become an immortal but not any others? 

 

I would be happy. My point was that around us we see very few immortals but a lot of human beings, if the celestial mechanism is so easy as you describe, then most of them would attain Dao automatically, just by eating, saying and acting more or less properly. But the alchemy path needs big efforts and a lot of knowledge (and a teacher, because preheaven is "dark and obscure")

 

 

1. Have you read Innersoundqigong’s post?  How do you think about the postnatal sexual energy transformation? 

 

yes, I know Drew's ideas after lengthy debates with him. He is an evangelist of the transformation of the postheaven jing back into yuan qi by means of some weird training, that looks very dangerous... I'm still waiting until he gets any results, comparable to first stages of the Daoist alchemy, but as you can now understand, the chances are very very low. So nothing to discuss, basically, read some previous threads, it's all there.

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 15 Aug 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

 

...Qigong works with Postheaven Qi, Neidan works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original.

 

If people teach Qigong, but explain the postheaven changes using the language of Neidan (dantian, heaven circuit, refining jing into qi etc) then they are in illusions, confused and fool others.

 

It sounds that Opendao is great Neidan master. And your above statement is fascinating.

 

It would be great to hear your philosophy and methods regarding how did you make such conclusion. 

1. Is it from your pre-heaven expression or post-heaven studies?  
2. Do you have any evidence and references about your statement?  
3. What kind of Neidan classics and scriptures have you studied so far?
4. Which level of Neidan cultivation you have completed?  
5. Can you share some of your Neidan cultivation experience?  
6. Have you experienced the spiritual Pivot within?
7. Have you seen the flight of golden sparks?  
8. Do you know that some individuals have experiential understanding and realization about Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original through Qigong practice?  

[quantumdragon]

 

It sounds that Opendao is great Neidan master. And your above statement is fascinating.

 

It would be great to hear your philosophy and methods regarding how did you make such conclusion. 

1. Is it from your pre-heaven expression or post-heaven studies?  
2. Do you have any evidence and references about your statement?  
3. What kind of Neidan classics and scriptures have you studied so far?
4. Which level of Neidan cultivation you have completed?  
5. Can you share some of your Neidan cultivation experience?  
6. Have you experienced the spiritual Pivot within?
7. Have you seen the flight of golden sparks?  
8. Do you know that some individuals have experiential understanding and realization about Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original through Qigong practice?  

Xuanming I would like to offer an energetic assessment of Opendao. He has made many claims about his training. I cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instruct him or better his relationship with and his understanding of  the Great Patriarch's Teachings. As alway I must speak from my person experience. Yesterday after my post from the female perspective Opendao takes the  inappropriate out of harmony liberty of attempting to come to my home in this world and penetrate my  energetic/physical body to check out this  secret I discussed.  I felt his intention was from a unrefined reproductive energy which  means to me  that no  Opendao has not begun the  beginning steps of firing , purifying or bathing.  He is operating from conditioning at an extremely primitive instinctual level. I intend no disrespect to Opendao. I make the assumption since he came to me he wanted my assistance and  put himself  in full view of my other sight beyond the  human eyes.  What I saw was very interesting. 

First I thought his choice of entrance into my home was odd. Why would a spirit being come in through the toilet plumbing?  Why not just  click on me  show sefl to my mind screen and ask for a talk? Toilet very poor choice of coming into house for a spirit ,  this show much about how opendao does not understand the difference between what is waste and what is pure.

The next  thing I observed was the color of Opendao's energy body. It has many black holes, it is  grey to dark grey with no white at all or any other colors. This tells me  he has not activated any of his organ systems at all. These organ system when activated by flying sparks have regular  predictable mandela's or signatures in color. No authentic flying sparks practice  has been accomplished  by Opendao.  The next thing I noticed was  no shape at all to the energy body more like  an ill formed head with a blob attached. So sad no eyes, nose mouth. or any other body part. So no opendao has not even started any work at all with authentic qi. No tripods, no clay oven, no Heart of Heaven no real energetic anatomy at all.  I have not seen this form before so I can only guess this is a Yin Ghost with no exposure to the Yang light, no quickening has taken place, no birth of  the companion just undifferentiated Ghost.  From his appearance only post heaven is ruling his body. He  has attained  small amounts of power , little black magic spells with the intent of exercising power but these are not authentic / prenatal energies. The Original Authentic Self has no need for parlor tricks.

[YiYinYiYang]

.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[damdao]

So the  Quick Fire method is the standing active exercise - the thighs parallel to ground ideally - so when the legs are vibrating 7 times per second this is the Theta REM brain wave that activates the Yuan Qi of the heart.

 

The deep breathing activates the vagus nerve which then sublimates the cerebrospinal fluid up to the brain - including the serotonin of the lower body.

 

The anal flexing is the lower magpie bridge that like the tongue against the roof of the mouth, connects the front and back channels to also sublimate the reproductive fluid back into yin jing (hormonal) energy. So this is another reason why the standing active exercise is crucial since it flexes the largest muscle in the body - the glutes.

 

 

Xuanming I would like to offer an energetic assessment of Opendao. He has made many claims about his training. I cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instruct him or better his relationship with and his understanding of  the Great Patriarch's Teachings. As alway I must speak from my person experience. Yesterday after my post from the female perspective Opendao takes the  inappropriate out of harmony liberty of attempting to come to my home in this world and penetrate my  energetic/physical body to check out this  secret I discussed.  I felt his intention was from a unrefined reproductive energy which  means to me  that no  Opendao has not begun the  beginning steps of firing , purifying or bathing.  He is operating from conditioning at an extremely primitive instinctual level. I intend no disrespect to Opendao. I make the assumption since he came to me he wanted my assistance and  put himself  in full view of my other sight beyond the  human eyes.  What I saw was very interesting. 

First I thought his choice of entrance into my home was odd. Why would a spirit being come in through the toilet plumbing?  Why not just  click on me  show sefl to my mind screen and ask for a talk? Toilet very poor choice of coming into house for a spirit ,  this show much about how opendao does not understand the difference between what is waste and what is pure.

 I have not seen this form before so I can only guess this is a Yin Ghost with no exposure to the Yang light, no quickening has taken place, no birth of  the companion just undifferentiated Ghost.  From his appearance only post heaven is ruling his body. 

 

I would never expected such a course in a thread.

So, now Opendao is not even a human being...hmmm.

It reminds me to the accusations made by Flowing Hands against TaiShanMen guys, it seems that when someone with psychic development feels upset s/he projects his fears like an black magic attack. It is not unusual, it happens a lot.

 

Going to the preheaven post heaven thing, I was surprised in reading transforming post-natal essence in pre-natal qi. There is the saying that we need bamboo to repair a window made of bamboo, and no other substance could be used. And even beizong people cites a lot Zhang Boduan saying that if it has form you must not use it.