Wang Liping Low Level?

[lifeforce]

I am exclusively training in the basic Dzogchen exercises now.

I calculate this to be the best chance to achieve the highest level possible for me.

Do you have a teacher zoom, or are you going it alone ? I'd be interested to hear of your experiences. Maybe this is for another thread though.

PM me if it's more suitable to converse that way.

Edited June 8, 2015 by lifeforce

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[KenBrace]

Just because you're not convinced someone is high level, does not automatically mean they're low level.

 

How about giving the man some slack and not labeling him as anything. 

 

Caught in the dualistic mind, wandering forever more.

 

The OP is simply asking if there is any real evidence for Liping's alleged high level. Nothing wrong with that.

[idiot_stimpy]

The OP is simply asking if there is any real evidence for Liping's alleged high level. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I couldn't be convinced until I see it for myself.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[idiot_stimpy]

Yes and we all would really be delighted to see some real evidence for it.

Sadly, I'm not aware of such.

 

Just because we have not seen real evidence, does not mean its a bad thing.

 

It just is as it is.

[KenBrace]

Just because we have not seen real evidence, does not mean its a bad thing.

 

It just is as it is.

 

What it means is that we can't be sure of its legitimacy.

[KenBrace]

Yes and we all would really be delighted to see some real evidence for it.

Sadly, I'm not aware of such.

 

Same here. I really hope it is legit and as powerful as claimed but I am very skeptical.

[idiot_stimpy]

What it means is that we can't be sure of its legitimacy.

 

Of course, until we meet the person in question and form an opinion on first hand experience.

 

Until then it is not proven or unproven.

[lifeforce]

My teacher is a good friend who got instructed in Dzogchen by Namkhai Norbu.

 

 

If you are interested in reading about my experiences with Dzogchen training,

you can read this thread here:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/37912-my-first-thodgal-vision/

Thank you.

[MooNiNite]

Just because you're not convinced someone is high level, does not automatically mean they're low level.

 

How about giving the man some slack and not labeling him as anything. 

 

Caught in the dualistic mind, wandering forever more.

when his seminars are $4,000 one has to raise these questions

[KenBrace]

Of course, until we meet the person in question and form an opinion on first hand experience.

 

Until then it is not proven or unproven.

 

False until proven otherwise. That's the best motto to live by. Everything should have a default status of "unproven". It should only be considered proven once it has enough evidence in its support.

 

when his seminars are $4,000 one has to raise these questions

 

This is exactly right.

[steve]

I am exclusively training in the basic Dzogchen exercises now.

I calculate this to be the best chance to achieve the highest level possible for me.

 

You do realize, don't you, that the view and objective of the Dzogchen method is what I presented earlier.

The view that you and Ken object to and ridicule.

Everything is absolutely perfect and complete exactly as it is in this very moment.

There is nothing more to be or gain. 

Every pith instruction from the great masters who are said to have achieved the jalus is basically the same - leave everything exactly as it is. 

The Dzogchen exercises, including thodgal, are designed to cultivate this view.

In fact, that is the definition of Dzogchen.

Curious that you choose to exclusively train in exercises designed to cultivate a view that you object to.

[idiot_stimpy]

False until proven otherwise. That's the best motto to live by. Everything should have a default status of "unproven". It should only be considered proven once it has enough evidence in its support.

 

 

I do not agree. I am completely open to both possibilities, without picking either.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

The one thing I realize is that you should listen to Namkhai Norbu in this video from 8:02 - 10:16

and realize, that what he criticizes there in fact is hinting to many of his students

who have exactly the same attitude like you:

 

 

Thank you for that, it is excellent advice. 

I agree with him 100% and I would urge you to consider whether you feel that he is speaking to you or just to everyone else.

I have a lot of respect for Nakhai Norbu Rinpoche. One of his teachers is my teacher's teacher.

 

Anytime we listen to teachings, it is important to see what they mean for us personally.

It is very important to be able to look at ourselves as if we were someone else, our teacher for example, looking at us from the outside.

Seeing yourself clearly is the only way forward in these practices. 

 

The single most important thing to cultivate for a Dzogchen-pa is openness. 

 

If you are going to exclusively focus on Dzogchen practices, I would highly recommend you also open yourself to the Dzogchen view because that is what the practices aim to develop. Otherwise, what can one expect to gain from practicing methods that are intended to develop a view that one rejects and ridicules?

[Daeluin]

Good points. I also support ZOOM learning from the approach he is led by his friend - it may ultimately lead to the same approach, but without the necessity of rejecting that which does not resonate. He was led to this path via a friend, and so there is likely a deeper resonance within that relationship than we could hope to understand.

 

This whole sith or nazgul based approach is interesting. Feels more like the idea of taking energy for personal use without needing to operate under the rules that other things operate under. Which is fine - it just means this approach will need to navigate the challenges related to how it positions itself within the whole.

 

When we center ourselves within the whole and open, we can receive the energy of the whole, for giving and receiving are one. When we attempt to draw out the energy of the whole without an even exchange, it requires a certain cleverness to enable this type of exchange to unfold and then to guard what one has hoarded. It would appear this exchange often operates in the dynamic of competition, where one takes from another through conquest. All too familiar in the western realm. Seems pretty unnecessary, given that everything people compete over is free to be had if one just opens and accepts their role within transformation.

 

Further, it is odd - what is the purpose of this hoarding apart from the whole? What beauteous design is planned that can only come to fruition apart from the whole? And how can it remain hale without the support and nourishment of the whole? This dynamic can be seen in cancer cells, who steal from the whole, but in the end fail to even sustain themselves once the dynamic of the body that sustains them fails. If there are those who would steal from the existing cancerous dynamics within our society rather than feeding them, all one needs do is absorb those threads and return them into connection to the whole.

 

We are always seeking balance between absorbing life giving resources and sharing life giving resources. In time this balance can be refined to such a state that what is exchanged is merely a whisper on the surface, never reaching the core, even as one is open to all things, without walls. Whereas, if one is always protecting the core with walls, and always stealing and never giving, the resulting barrier against circularity might lead to difficulty in reaching new states of development, or perhaps require more conflict oriented progress.

 

Just my musings. I don't really know what others mean when they speak in terms of the sith or nazgul approach. I was more a fan of Beren.

[Brian]

I was drawn to both Tom Bombadil and Treebeard.

[dwai]

Good points. I also support ZOOM learning from the approach he is led by his friend - it may ultimately lead to the same approach, but without the necessity of rejecting that which does not resonate. He was led to this path via a friend, and so there is likely a deeper resonance within that relationship than we could hope to understand.

 

This whole sith or nazgul based approach is interesting. Feels more like the idea of taking energy for personal use without needing to operate under the rules that other things operate under. Which is fine - it just means this approach will need to navigate the challenges related to how it positions itself within the whole.

 

When we center ourselves within the whole and open, we can receive the energy of the whole, for giving and receiving are one. When we attempt to draw out the energy of the whole without an even exchange, it requires a certain cleverness to enable this type of exchange to unfold and then to guard what one has hoarded. It would appear this exchange often operates in the dynamic of competition, where one takes from another through conquest. All too familiar in the western realm. Seems pretty unnecessary, given that everything people compete over is free to be had if one just opens and accepts their role within transformation.

 

Further, it is odd - what is the purpose of this hoarding apart from the whole? What beauteous design is planned that can only come to fruition apart from the whole? And how can it remain hale without the support and nourishment of the whole? This dynamic can be seen in cancer cells, who steal from the whole, but in the end fail to even sustain themselves once the dynamic of the body that sustains them fails. If there are those who would steal from the existing cancerous dynamics within our society rather than feeding them, all one needs do is absorb those threads and return them into connection to the whole.

 

We are always seeking balance between absorbing life giving resources and sharing life giving resources. In time this balance can be refined to such a state that what is exchanged is merely a whisper on the surface, never reaching the core, even as one is open to all things, without walls. Whereas, if one is always protecting the core with walls, and always stealing and never giving, the resulting barrier against circularity might lead to difficulty in reaching new states of development, or perhaps require more conflict oriented progress.

 

Just my musings. I don't really know what others mean when they speak in terms of the sith or nazgul approach. I was more a fan of Beren.

My teacher says this -

 

If we "hoard" energy, we end up blocking our natural abilities, as we are condensing and solidifying energy over our existing idiosyncrasies and blockages.  If we are empty and let the energy (Dao) work through us, the results are limitless. We have to let go of the idea of "I, me, mine and myself" if we are to allow the power of the universe to work through us. 

 

He mentioned that he's seen people who "greedily and jealously covet energy and powers" go crazy. 

 

My thoughts now -- The allure of "power" and "abilities" (we call these Siddhis in Indian traditions) is very overwhelming and attracts the wrong kind of people. Most of these people can't get anywhere because they don't have the right attitude or discipline.  Some of these do have the discipline, or perhaps their power lust is so great that they do invest time and effort to learn something, but they are the ones who end up hoarding and jealously guarding their power. I ran into a few such individuals recently - they were condescending, secretive and their energies felt cold and closed. (Sith Lords)

 

The real practitioners are those who don't give into the allure of power and abilities. They practice because they find spiritual growth and succor in their practice. They too develop power and abilities, however in this case their natural abilities and gifts shine through, and this attitude helps develop their compassion and heart (Jedi) 

 

[blue eyed snake]

My teacher says this -

 

If we "hoard" energy, we end up blocking our natural abilities, as we are condensing and solidifying energy over our existing idiosyncrasies and blockages.  If we are empty and let the energy (Dao) work through us, the results are limitless. We have to let go of the idea of "I, me, mine and myself" if we are to allow the power of the universe to work through us. 

 

He mentioned that he's seen people who "greedily and jealously covet energy and powers" go crazy. 

 

I've thought this before,

our teachers have some similarities 

[KenBrace]

I do not agree. I am completely open to both possibilities, without picking either.

 

I am open to both possibilities as well. But a claim should still be considered false until proven otherwise.

 

I was drawn to both Tom Bombadil and Treebeard.

 

But what sucks is that Tom Bombadil wasn't even in the movie. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by KenBrace

[Brian]

<snip>

 

 

But what sucks is that Tom Bombadil wasn't even in the movie. 

Yes, a pity. As the oldest being in existence, who remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn, and who saw the days before Sauron came from the Outside, he would no doubt play a prominent part in the nonexistent Bums' Guide to Middle Earth -- even if he didn't have abilities he took so lightly, wasn't immune to the power of the rings and wasn't such a snappy dresser!

[healingtouch]

Good points. I also support ZOOM learning from the approach he is led by his friend - it may ultimately lead to the same approach, but without the necessity of rejecting that which does not resonate. He was led to this path via a friend, and so there is likely a deeper resonance within that relationship than we could hope to understand.

 

This whole sith or nazgul based approach is interesting. Feels more like the idea of taking energy for personal use without needing to operate under the rules that other things operate under. Which is fine - it just means this approach will need to navigate the challenges related to how it positions itself within the whole.

 

When we center ourselves within the whole and open, we can receive the energy of the whole, for giving and receiving are one. When we attempt to draw out the energy of the whole without an even exchange, it requires a certain cleverness to enable this type of exchange to unfold and then to guard what one has hoarded. It would appear this exchange often operates in the dynamic of competition, where one takes from another through conquest. All too familiar in the western realm. Seems pretty unnecessary, given that everything people compete over is free to be had if one just opens and accepts their role within transformation.

 

Further, it is odd - what is the purpose of this hoarding apart from the whole? What beauteous design is planned that can only come to fruition apart from the whole? And how can it remain hale without the support and nourishment of the whole? This dynamic can be seen in cancer cells, who steal from the whole, but in the end fail to even sustain themselves once the dynamic of the body that sustains them fails. If there are those who would steal from the existing cancerous dynamics within our society rather than feeding them, all one needs do is absorb those threads and return them into connection to the whole.

 

We are always seeking balance between absorbing life giving resources and sharing life giving resources. In time this balance can be refined to such a state that what is exchanged is merely a whisper on the surface, never reaching the core, even as one is open to all things, without walls. Whereas, if one is always protecting the core with walls, and always stealing and never giving, the resulting barrier against circularity might lead to difficulty in reaching new states of development, or perhaps require more conflict oriented progress.

 

Just my musings. I don't really know what others mean when they speak in terms of the sith or nazgul approach. I was more a fan of Beren.

 

Brilliant post. Thank you!

[healingtouch]

I do object to the phrase: western competition. Because let's be honest, greed and thirst for absolute power run rampant and have run rampant in the East too, to the point of stifling progress much more than in the West.

[KenBrace]

I do object to the phrase: western competition. Because let's be honest, greed and thirst for absolute power run rampant and have run rampant in the East too, to the point of stifling progress much more than in the West.

 

This is true enough. All animals are prone to greed; homo sapiens included.