CCM vs TCM education in the USA - is there a huge difference?

[Orion]

For Orion: Where did you learn TCM? Would you have done it differently, knowing what you know? How long did it take you to absorb CCM and synthesize it into your practice style?

 

I'm still processing it. The philosophy behind CCM is never ending. I can re-read a classic text over and over, and each time derive a different meaning. As your consciousness evolves, your insight into deeper meaning evolves. It would be nice to have a local master to work with, but for now I'm happy with the way things are going.

 

What would I do differently? I would have used all the money I dished out to some generic TCM college in North America to go overseas and do a live/work apprenticeship with a lineage master. But unfortunately that opportunity didn't manifest. Fortunately, I was so passionate about the subject that my lackluster education was greatly supplemented with research and foreign contacts.

 

I don't regret the way things turned out. If it's your path and you're keen then it's going to happen anyway. I just think the North American schools value true healing way less because they are caught up in the corporate politics, along with the push and pull of modern medicine. The California board recently deliberated on whether or not to eliminate the word "qi" from public relations materials, because it "looks bad" to the scientifically minded. That's the kind of consciousness we are dealing with here -- monolithic organizations that have such little direct experience with the true essence of the medicine that they are willing to discard the heart of it. The professional boards really only care about their power, not furthering the medicine. Anyway [/rant]

 

CCM is superior because its techniques conserve yuan qi and work with the horary cycles of the body. A lot of modern people still need deep needling though because they just don't have the same sensitivity the ancients did, and there's a lot of crud in the meridians that needs dredging before any lighter technique would elicit a response.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Orion

[Aetherous]

CCM is superior because its techniques conserve yuan qi and work with the horary cycles of the body.

 

What techniques conserve yuan qi? Placing needles at the superficial depth, and taking them out as soon as the pulse changes (as in some Japanese styles)?

[Yasjua]

I can see this thread being of value to some future lost soul like myself, so I'm going to continue documenting some of my research and impressions here. I also invite anyone reading this months or years down the road to contact me if you need someone to talk to, or would like additional references, as I'll probably be more educated on the subject by then.

 

For any future acupuncturists, here are some of the resources I've come across indicating that the three Universities I mentioned earlier in the thread (NCNM, THSU, Daoist Traditions) may be of particular value to those interested in studying the classics (and hence achieving a more authentic and effective understanding of Chinese medicine).

 

NCNM

 

For starters, anyone doing research on this topic will come across Heiner Fruehauf's work. Heiner founded NCNM's CCM program in Portland and has dedicated his life to scholarly and clinical preservation of classical chinese medicine. He and Laurie Reagan (Dean of the program and Qi gong teacher at NCNM) run a radio show on Chinese medicine called "True Nature Radio." You may want to give them a listen to feel out their energy and see what they have to say on the topic. Heiner's website on CCM is http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ .

 

My personal impressions of this school are that it is probably the most thorough and holistic education you can receive in the United States in Chinese medicine - on paper. I explained why that is in a previous post (Qi gong emphasis, mountain retreats, study of CM in Chinese, sinology, elective courses on I Ching, herbal meditation sessions, heavy emphasis on cosmology and symbolism and classics, and a special 'rare book room' that houses some very old and very rare books on CM).

 

I have not attended this school and am not aware of the quality of teaching at the school. I did shadow groups of 3rd and 4th year students in the clinic on three separate occasions. I met with two groups of ND/CCM dual-major students and one group of CCM only, and I met three different teacher/practitioners.

 

My impressions were that of severe burnout from the dual-major students. They looked healthy but felt depleted. These programs are very intensive and time-consuming, and they openly admitted to being tired of being at school - these are the words of 12/12 students I met. I also got the impression when talking to them (both CCM-only and dual-majors) about CM that they really don't have a grasp on what it is, what it can do, or how it works, particularly at the level of depth the classics are supposed to get you to. I may have been expecting too much from 3rd and 4th year students, but I was disappointed and turned off from the school by some of these factors. A more realistic assessment of this situation is that students of any medicine, whether that be Chinese, Naturopathic, or Western, have very little clinical experience, and I've heard over and over by this point that you don't leave CM school feeling like a master (although you obtain a Master's). Instead, you go into the clinical world ready to start learning about the medicine, and continue learning for basically the rest of your life.

 

That said, I think NCNM does everything they can to train practitioners with extraordinary philosophical knowledge of the medicine, a broad, deep, and powerful vocabulary to draw on in their clinical thinking, and a strong degree of psychological and energetic cultivation that is needed to practice energy medicine.

 

Note that NCNM is divided into two separate but interconnected programs - Naturopathic medicine (which comprises about 90% of the student body) and Classical Chinese medicine. There is a totally different vibe to the programs as Naturopathic medicine is allopathic and heavily science-oriented. 

 

Daoist Traditions

 

At the following link you'll find Andrew Nugent-Head's personal nod of approval to Daoist Traditions, a small University run out of Asheville. Andrew has presumably relocated to Asheville from China, due to the spread and intensification of smog. His videos on Youtube are very informative concerning the difference between classical and traditional CM approaches.

 

http://www.traditionalstudies.org/where-should-i-go-to-chinese-medicine-school-which-is-the-best-school/

 

I just got off the phone with the admissions director at DT and had a very warm, personal, and detailed conversation with her (about 1 1/2 hours) about extra meridian systems and Jeffrey Yuen's approach. From our conversation, I gather that this is probably the most esoteric model of CM education in the United States. In additional to the core TCM classes, which everyone has to take regardless of your school, there are classes that focus specifically on sinew, Luo (blood) and Jing (Essence) meridians. I believe many TCM schools teach these, but probably don't dedicate as much time to really understanding them - and yes, there is a lot of depth here, that some schools just won't ever get into. The Eight Extraordinary ("Extra") vessels, for example, were regarded by some old practitioners as off-limits or unethical, because they influence Jing and hence the flow of destiny itself. In addition, Jeffrey teaches a whole bunch of seminars throughout the year (http://daoisttraditions.com/Events.html) which address some funky metaphysical and alchemical topics, as well as less esoteric topics like Neuropsychology and and the use of stones in CM.

 

I posted links to the curricula of the other two schools in a previous thread, and I apologize for the disorganization of information, but here it is for Daoist Traditions: http://daoisttraditions.com/documents/2015Catalog.pdf - course description starts around page 40.

 

Texas Health and Science University

 

Note: somehow a bunch of my own opinions got mixed into this area. I don't know if I feel like editing it, so you'll just deal with some 'me' here.

 

This is probably the least esoteric of the three schools. It is also the most Chinese, which may or may not be a good thing depending on who you are. What I mean is that this school is run by Chinese, taught by Chinese, administrated largely by Chinese, and draws a lot more Chinese students - this has a different ethos than a school run by a bunch of white people. I'm being pretty objective here - if you study the past 70 years of Chinese history you can see that Chinese people are just different, especially if they're old and grew up with the afflictions and difficulties that have shaped that country and its consciousness.

 

This is also the shortest program (3 1/3 years, as opposed to 4), and is the only school of the three that doesn't have a major emphasis on personal cultivation built into the coursework. What it does have, is an excellent business school adjunct - you might not be as 'cultivated' when you get out of this program, but if you take the MBA courses, you'll have an extra degree and will have an advantage in starting a successful clinic. This is important because statistically only 25% of trained acupuncturists manage to stay in practice for more than 5 years. What this means it that acupuncturists are either not in high enough demand, or that acupuncturists are graduating with little to no idea of how to run a business). I would personally prefer to run a successful business and support myself than have all the esoteric Chinese knowledge in the world, so I'm going with this one, and hope to develop my understanding of CM's true depth later in life.

 

Regarding the lack of emphasis on Qi Gong, this means that you have to go out and find your own martial arts/qi gong/inner alchemy work to transmute your own energy if that's what you're interested in. I have had very real and very immediate results in acupuncture that I attribute in part to a practitioner's good energy, and downright shit sessions coming from unhealthy, uncultivated, or emotionally wonky types of practitioners. So do your cultivation, kids! 

 

I also think they are far less interested in the psycho-spiritual side of CM that CCM gets into. If you're a psycho-spiritual kind of person, know that you want to work on that level, and feel personally drawn to heal (yourself and others) on that dimension, go for the esoteric schools. They will teach this, and they will teach it in much more depth.

 

I personally made some decisions and learned some things and had some experiences that have negated my interest in this. I think life is plenty rich on the surface and don't have a particular affinity with super deep spiritual metaphysics or esoteric ontology. I think those dimensions (superconsciousness and unconsciousness) are accessed due in part to high activity in the limbic system and the activation of certain circuits in the central nervous system. I'd prefer my CNS and limbic system chill out and not open gateways into the beyond anymore (diverges too much from the general Earthling's consciousness and makes me feel like a weirdo. Also makes me superstitious and super-sensitive to 'energy' and my ego gets all spiritual and grandiose and whatnot, none of which I'm all that interested in cultivating anymore).

 

CM still has a lot to offer in terms of helping people function better, heal on a physical and emotional level, and generally be happier and healthier in life. As someone put it to me, the 12 primary meridians, which is what TCM practitioners generally focus on, relate to your everyday ordinary functional consciousness. i.e. I wake up, drink my coffee, take a shower, head out the door, interact with colleagues, pay my bills, go for a bike ride, indulge in a hobby or movie, make love, go to sleep, repeat. If there are disturbances on this level - lets say you get really upset with your colleagues, or can't deal with your kids, or have chronic pain, or are fatigued and can't function well - TCM and particularly the 12 primary meridians help with this.* Note that this is a simplification. 

 

On the other hand, if you're coming from a childhood of parental abuse, or have repressed rape trauma, or were born under some terrible ominous stellar constellation and simply "don't fit in" with this world, and you can't hold down a job, and everyone hates you, and your psyche is all fucked up for different reasons, then maybe CCM can help by altering the flow of Qi on a deeper level than TCM does. I don't know. When I was looking for this in practitioners as a broken young man myself, I couldn't really find anyone.

 

But like I said, I've cleared this stuff out of my consciousness over the years and veered away from this stuff, and don't really want to deal with that level anymore. I had a long run-in with that dimension for 6 years and I'm happy to be personally done with it - and being pretty fresh out of it, I don't want to particularly deal with others who are in it. I'm certain that while it's all very real, it's also completely generated in the brain and subsists on nothing but faulty circuits of thought and energy. I also think that all perceptions subsist on these circuits of perception that are conditioned by neural circuits, hormones, digestive and reproductive urges, and other physical systems, so what that means (to me) is that it doesn't matter what you believe (spiritualist, materialist, anarchist, pragmatist, etc.) - I genuinely don't give a damn, everyone's perceptions are a-okay, so long as they're functional and non-harmful.

 

THSU seems to work in just about everything from the CCM curricula of NCNM and DT, but with a lot less emphasis on the esoteric or non-TCM aspects of that stuff. They do teach Shang Han Lun, Golden Chamber and Four Streams of Scholars, (I don't particularly know what any of that means, but apparently they're classics). I believe they teach all the extra meridians, but I have no idea yet how much detail they'll go into. I'm quite certain they don't teach the cosmology and symbolism in depth, or the Ling Shu, which is really what, as I understand, acupuncturists should study to understand the original spiritual depths of this medicine. I'm still trying to get in touch with someone there who will talk in detail about this. I will update this section when I have more information. I will say for now that the Dean was not all that interested in talking to me (although he did briefly deny the corruption of TCM, claiming that it is several thousand years old, but then went on to say something about how "Modern Chinese medicine is broken").

 

I had to dig deep to find some student reviews at THSU, but they all came out positive. Students described their experiences as authentic. They say they learned "real Chinese medicine," and not merely western medicine that uses TCM principles to accomplish its goals, and that the professors are very caring. Going through Google reviews, multiple yelp links, clicking on hidden reviews, and checking city-data's forum will all yield some reviews from students who praised the university.

 

There's also this: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/schools/texastcm.php

 

 

Check back for updates. I will continue editing as I collect more information and get a chance to re-read what I've wrote.

 

Yasjua

Edited February 24, 2015 by Yasjua

[Ya Mu]

A couple of quick questions. Why does deep needling deplete yuan qi? And, what's a lighter technique that would elicit a response? Finally, what do you consider "true healing?" Thanks.

It isn't necessary to have a needle enter the skin to elicit a response. Jim MacRitchie, a very accomplished Author, acupuncturist who helped bring licensure to the state of Colorado, usually does not stick the needle in but holds it over the point - and I may add with an incredible result rate. I used to do this as well until I discovered that needles were not needed at all.

As far as why it depletes, there is no way the acupuncturist has of insuring that the needle doesn't drain - it doesn't have a diode (ha ha) insuring one-way flow.

[Songtsan]

 

I'd say you lived in a different Portland than I did, lim. I'm not even three decades old, so that accounts for some major differences in our experiences, and your peer groups have probably had more time to get their heads on straight. Also, the fact that you made it through 30 years of that weather tells me we're just not wired the same biologically. I can't live under a cloud for that long. It really gets to me.

 

.....

 

I lived in Portland for over ten years, was admitted to both NCNM and OCOM (but never attended). I have been interested in the healing professions all of my life, but put my formal schooling on hold, partially due to my experiences in seeking out health services in allopathy, Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda, and various other systems. I worked at the YMCA on Barbur Blvd, which had a special membership deal for NCNM students, and so I was able to talk to a lot of the students in the dual (Naturopath + CCM) program, and also had a few regular med school friends...my overall take on all the medicines of the world is that they are all chock full of misinformation and belief systems that are constantly changing.

 

How this relates to the OP is that I think that you should study all systems - if one can study both Naturopathy and CCM at the same time, then one could certainly study CCM and TCM at the same time...even if your school of choice only comes from one perspective, you should co-study the others.

 

I don't care how old a medical system is, the bottom line is that they are all relatively young. Is there any system that has roots in anything more older than say 30,000 years? This amount of time is nothing.

 

Everyone who calls themselves a physician should make a point of being a meta-physician - that's my two cents...

 

never become complacent in your belief systems

[Walker]

Andrew Nugent-Head's piece above in post #24 strikes me as an incredibly honest, balanced, generous, and wise assessment, written by a man who's really paid his dues, and then some. It also reflects what I've personally seen while pursuing the study of Chinese medicine in China since 2008. I know that this is a thread more about the situation in the US, but two segments stick out to me...

 

 

Studying in China is a more and more common choice for dedicated students. Having lived in China my entire adult life and watched westerners come and go, I cannot say that an education had here is any better than an education in the west. A student who continues actively striving to immerse themselves in the medicine here despite the physical and emotional trials life in China bring will certainly be further ahead than their contemporaries back home; but most either do not show that initiative or have it ground out of them by the difficulties here, leaving with less than they may have found at home despite having a better resume on paper. But if a student can remain positive, sidestep the western medical brainwashing that is part of the medicine here, avoid being arrogant for having been in China, and made a concerted effort to learn to read, write and speak Chinese fluently, the higher cover charge this country requires does equate to a better learning platform down the road. But that degree earned still only represents the right to begin learning, not proof of skill already obtained. East or West, the sooner this is realized and accepted, the closer one is to孺子可教 ‘Ru Zi Ke Jiao’ when the time does come or the opportunity presents itself.

 

My deciding to pursue my studies in China in 2008 and then deciding to stay here several years later after strongly considering transferring to NCNM, hinges on what Andrew talks about above... especially the last sentence. This point also indirectly relates to the question of what "classical" Chinese medicine is. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how well you read the Shanghanlun and its 1,000 +++ commentaries: if you haven't got teachers, you really aren't doing CCM, because Chinese medicine's vast forest of poetic and arcane theory is a place that it's extremely easy to get totally lost in. 

 

Yasjua, you say you were disappointed by the lack of proficiency evidenced by 3rd and 4th year students at NCNM. In my opinion, although, a young, brilliant person taught in intensive apprenticeship for three years definitely could launch into the profession and be a good or even great doctor from a very young age, we would probably be talking about a genius who had a very accomplished and strict teacher. For most people, to expect them to have a really deep, profound understanding of TCM in such a short period of time is highly unrealistic. Thus it is that in the Tang Dynasty no lesser doctor than Sun Simiao said, "the world has idiots who study the formulas for three years and then declare that there are no incurable diseases. Then they work at curing illness for three years, and come to know that under heaven there are no useful formulas." (世有愚者，读方三年，便谓天下无病可治；及治病三年，乃知天下无方可用.)

 

To illustrate the point, several years ago in southern China I attended several lectures on the Shanghanlun delivered by a young doctor who had attained some minor fame online. He liked to say, "to learn Chinese medicine, you only need three years," with something of a sneer for those who take longer. He was a very mysterious-yet-charismatic sort of character with claims to some sort of Daoist lineage or other, and many people became his patients. I never heard of any actual healing results, even though he was definitely a hard-working and sincere fellow. Eventually a woman I knew with late-stage breast cancer came under his care. He wrote herbal prescriptions for her and every day compassionately changed the bandages on her tumor, which was festering so terribly as to smell like rotting flesh. Sadly, under his care the woman's condition only worsened and she soon after passed away. Her daughter, whom I also knew, later went to go visit the physician in his mid-80s whom the patient had previously been seeing. Although the results with the elderly doctor's prescriptions had been positive, for whatever reason, the woman with cancer decided to switch doctors more than once, going not only to the young doctor, but yet another elderly herbalist in Shanghai. The doctor with decades of experience and lineage teachings (I'd also met him at one point down the line) only sighed when he saw the prescriptions that the daughter brought him. He said, "ai, the older doctor's prescriptions were never going to be able to cure your mother, but at least they weren't harming her. I'm sad to say that in my opinion, the young doctor's choice of herbs basically killed her."

 

My points is that it takes a lifetime to master Chinese medicine and, furthermore, beware of any young doctor who tells you with too much confidence that he or she really knows the medicine! One can think that one's grasped Chinese medicine in four years of college, and one is probably fooling oneself. I say this despite the fact that one might actually be a pretty good practitioner at that stage; even though one might be getting pretty good results at clinic, really being a high-level practitioner is probably still a long, long, long way away. The NCNM students you met might be flaky, they might not be getting a great education, or they might be honest and realistic. Perhaps a mix. Either way, in my opinion, getting deep into Chinese medicine takes a convergence of years of apprenticeship, book study, clinical practice, and personal qi cultivation. And one never stops learning.

 

 

 Sadly, many students seem passive about their learning, thinking they deserve to be fed knowledge sitting in a classroom instead of actively striving to immerse themselves in the medicine through all means possible.

 

This point is absolutely key. To learn Chinese medicine, one has got to pound the pavement to the point of "breaking iron shoes." There is no other way.

[松永道]

The best one can hope for from any CM school in the world today is a foundation. And even that takes a lot of hard work.

 

@Yasjua, I'd like to add a little nuance to your summary above. First, I don't want to be indelicate, but Andrew is not endorsing Daoist Traditions, he is endorsing their director Cissy Majebe. This is an important distinction. Daoist traditions cirriculum is based on the teaching of Jeffery Yuen and should be considered his own unique flavor of Chinesse medicine. Andrew practices tangible medicine and treats common medical issues. As far as I can tell, Jeffery's medicine is more focused on emotion, possession, and spiritual issues. Without judgement, I prefer Andrew's style. Also, classically speaking, Chinese medicine also focused on common medical issues. Most of the esteemed doctors we study today were Confucian scholars, not shamans, monks, or priests. They recognized the unity of mind, body and spirit but nonetheless treated the kinds of illnesses that GPs, dermatologists, gynecologists, psychiatrists, etc treat today. In other words, none of them practiced in a way you describe as esoteric. But they are who we should be referring to with the term CCM. So, for the sake of clarity, we should draw a distinction between Daoist medicine and Classical Chinese medicine. Daoist Traditions teaches Jeffery Yuen's branch of Daoist medicine.

 

Honestly, Walker is completely right. The most important thing you need to learn this medicine are some good doctors to spend time in clinic with. And, of course, personal cultivation. In this regard, learning Chinese is a huge boon but there are some good doctors in the states too (and plenty of bad doctors in China). Other than that, you need the school to get a license. It's not a bad idea to do that in the cheapest way possible and then arrange an internship/residency with a good doctor after you graduate.

 

Edit: saw a typo.

Edited March 3, 2015 by 松永道

[Songtsan]

In many states, Naturopaths can practice acupuncture and prescribe any herbs Lacs do. One could go to school for the ND and then study privately under a good TCM/CCM doctor....also in allopathy, MDs can practice acupuncture without any licensure other than their standard medical school training.

 

In these cases, you might as well attend school for your ND or MD and study under a good CM teacher on your own.....

 

Basically MDs have the most crossover - they can do anything

[Aetherous]

we should draw a distinction between Daoist medicine and Classical Chinese medicine. Daoist Traditions teaches Jeffery Yuen's branch of Daoist medicine.

 

Agree with your post. IME, I'd say Daoist Traditions is 90% CCM (along with TCM for boards), and 10% Jeffrey Yuen's Daoist medicine/personal style. Just want to paint a clear picture of it here in case others become interested in the school. There is a good amount of JY influence, but not overwhelmingly so, and definitely not to the point where it's no longer CCM. But it is true that there is his influence at the school...only sometimes, like 10% of the time. Or in other words: if you're really motivated toward CCM, it will not interfere with your education, but only enhance it by offering extra things to consider. Also, his style is often "classically" based, rather than Daoist...but more in the style of the Nan Jing I think.

[Ya Mu]

In many states, Naturopaths can practice acupuncture and prescribe any herbs Lacs do. One could go to school for the ND and then study privately under a good TCM/CCM doctor....also in allopathy, MDs can practice acupuncture without any licensure other than their standard medical school training.

 

In these cases, you might as well attend school for your ND or MD and study under a good CM teacher on your own.....

 

Basically MDs have the most crossover - they can do anything

Good suggestions.

I would say, however that the MD training is SO expensive, that when one graduates, unless daddy paid for it, the person will be arm-twisted by financial commitments and will most likely go the allopathic route in order to pay back the loans. YEARS of loans can turn the best intentions toward holistic medicine to simply holding on with dear life.

 

Another option a person has is to simply go to massage therapy school (student loans - MUCH less) then go learn a powerful methodology that is within the scope of practice. This precludes needles but unless a person is just enamored with needles there really is no need for them as the same thing can be easily accomplished without them. If the person just wants to use needles then the acupuncture school/MD/DO/ND/DC degree is the only solution. I personally would choose ND or DO out of all of those, but only if I didn't have to obtain student loans.

 

I totally agree with the above post that references to go apprenticeship with someone. It can be the total difference in a halfway practitioner and an excellent one. This is the same no matter what form of medicine one studies. My apprenticeships totally changed my life and transformed my "very good" clinical practice to an entirely different level. 

 

It was mentioned in a post something to the effect that the op wanted to NOT include Spiritual and only do physical clinic work (I hope I understood that correctly). After over 35 years of clinical practice I would say that it is impossible to do that. If the person doing therapeutics of ANY kind tries to do that, they will totally miss a significant percentage of the problems their patients have. We cannot separate the mental, physical, and Spiritual if we want to effect the WHOLE person. The patient is a totality - not  a part. And this very thing, IMO, is one of the main things that differentiates a (poor to OK) practitioner versus an excellent one. 

[altiora]

I prefer to refer to TCM as Maoist medicine.  

 

Understand that much the same dumbing down aka standardisation has occured in Ayurveda in India (with the BAMS degree).  

 

It seems that both TCM and mainstream Ayurveda have omitted the deeper spiritual aspects of their traditions, in particular the notion that illness and disease should be seen as windows of opportunity for patients to look at their lives more thoroughly and make adjustments accordingly.  

 

Now this would be fine if TCM and BAMS were open about their limitations so that their students could know what and how they needed to study and cultivate further.  But they don't.  Consequently, for example, it is far too common to find cupuncturists who think that meridian points are consistently placed on every person's body, and who don't understand that they would be far more effective if they cultivated and projected qi when inserting the needles.    

 

While we're talking about Portland, one of my earlier teachers is to be found there: Master Liu He of the Ling Gui School.  She and her brother are descended from a family of traditional barefoot doctors.  Master Liu a simply delightful lady, very wise and compassionate, and no pretence.  She is well worth getting to know.