what is reality and what is illusion ?

[GrandmasterP]

The daughter of one of the original Moody Blues runs a cafe in the village near us.

We always have a cake stop there when we're out that way on the bikes.

Tons of MB memorabilia on the walls and such.

Good cake too.

Edited September 22, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

The Moody Blues before they became who they became:

 

 

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Ha! That was difficult for me to read and grasp what you were saying. I had to read it twice.

Good question. For many, reality sucks and therefore they use alcohol and drugs to escape it. Others just run away or deny it.

 

Reality is objective to those who are willing to accept its existence. Don't like it? The first question to be asked, I think, is, "Can I change it?" And then, before any further thought or action one should ask, "Will I be more at peace if I try to change it?"

 

I agree that being closed-minded is self defeating. It places limits on what we are willing to do or consider.

 

But actually, (objective) reality never varies; it is our perception that varies.

 

 

If you are claiming objective reality exists in the minds of those willing to accept it, can any two versions agree? Does that leave you with a separate objective reality for each individual consciousness perceiving it? Is there any possible mechanism that doesn't make this version of reality you are labeling as objective not exclusively subjective to the beliefs of reality the consciousness believing in objective reality may happen to have?

 

What can you tell me that you know of your objective reality? Does it include any parts that are concretely defined if you choose to observe closely enough, or does it only appear where and how a consciousness chooses to observe? The limits of my own observation of the outside world reveal all that we call the illusion matter to exist exclusively conditionally based on the location and method of observation offered by the consciousness of an observer. No observer means no defined energy or location for any particle composing any portion of the illusion often called "material world".

[Marblehead]

WoW! What great questions and comments! I want you to know that you are causing me to think. That's good.

 

If you are claiming objective reality exists in the minds of those willing to accept it, can any two versions agree?

Will we always agree, one with the other, about everything? Nah. That would be asking for too much. But of our most basic understandings about reality? Sure. Most of us find many who are in total agreement with us at root level.

 

Does that leave you with a separate objective reality for each individual consciousness perceiving it?

No. There is only one objective reality. Right now I am sitting on my chair. I am sure that 99% of people would agree that I am sitting on my chair. Define the chair and there will be countless descriptions of the chair and there is a good possibility that all would be right.

 

Is there any possible mechanism that doesn't make this version of reality you are labeling as objective not exclusively subjective to the beliefs of reality the consciousness believing in objective reality may happen to have?

Prior to the rise of "thinking man" there was only objective reality. Subjectivity did not exist. Just as with talking about dualities, there were no dualities until a subjective mind started discriminating between beautiful and ugly.

 

What can you tell me that you know of your objective reality?

My ass is sitting on my chair and not on the floor. That's objective truth.

 

Okay, one more.

 

My fish need water to breathe. If I tried to breathe water I would die.

 

Does it include any parts that are concretely defined if you choose to observe closely enough, or does it only appear where and how a consciousness chooses to observe?

Objective reality is always valid. Please note how I said that. Its important because in reality everything is constantly changing. Sometimes the changes are too slow to observe over a short period of time but they are changing none-the-less. Again, we do not choose which objective reality we are going to see. There is only one. It is within the subjective mind where we can change our perception of reality.

 

The limits of my own observation of the outside world reveal all that we call the illusion matter to exist exclusively conditionally based on the location and method of observation offered by the consciousness of an observer. No observer means no defined energy or location for any particle composing any portion of the illusion often called "material world".

I understand what you are pointing at here but I have not bought into this yet, may never.

 

Consider the solar system prior to the evolution of man and other thinking life forms. The same number of planets existed then as they do now. Earth has had only one moon for the past approx. 4 billion years. Objective reality does not change, whether there is an observer or not. And even without an observes the same amount of total energy exists. Always has, always will. But it does regularly take different forms.

[TaoMaster]

Thanks mang , makes sence to me too.

 

I like your username.

 

Im Slim and im "the 1" . Just not on this forum . Lol

 

Whatever we want it to be.

 

We decide.

 

What is real, and what illusion.

 

These are just concepts, ie labels which we choose to attach to phenomena.

 

I got the Moody Blues right here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3tfhzCLjA0

...

 

[TaoMaster]

 

 

It's not what real that sucks, it's what's unreal. That is what others run away from or try to. Yin attracts yin . Illusions are yin and so is drug abuse .

 

Yang attracts yang . What's real , is yang . Real ity. It's the yang part of dual ity . Ill lusion. It's the yin part.

 

Thx for the comments Marble Head .

 

Ha! That was difficult for me to read and grasp what you were saying. I had to read it twice.

 

Good question. For many, reality sucks and therefore they use alcohol and drugs to escape it. Others just run away or deny it.

 

Reality is objective to those who are willing to accept its existence. Don't like it? The first question to be asked, I think, is, "Can I change it?" And then, before any further thought or action one should ask, "Will I be more at peace if I try to change it?"

 

I agree that being closed-minded is self defeating. It places limits on what we are willing to do or consider.

 

But actually, (objective) reality never varies; it is our perception that varies.

[Marblehead]

It's not what real that sucks, it's what's unreal. That is what others run away from or try to.

Good point.

 

Yin attracts yin . Illusions are yin and so is drug abuse . Yang attracts yang . What's real , is yang . Real ity. It's the yang part of dual ity . Ill lusion. It's the yin part.

I still think you need to check out the polarity of your magnets.

 

Thx for the comments Marble Head .

Any time. I'm rather enjoying our discussions even though we don't always agree. (Of course, there likely wouldn't be much discussion if we always agreed with each other.)

[TaoMaster]

Take two or more magnets . And stick them all together as one magnet .

 

Put + and - at all the opposing poles on all the sides .

 

Then pull te all apart .

 

You can use + or - on either pole . It makes no difference. If it did , there would be no law of duality . Even the law of duality is bound by its own law.

 

But once you assign the pos and neg to the poles , there's no changing them unless you relable all the magnets again.

 

Pos attracts pos and neg attracts neg .

 

Pos is always yang and neg is always yin .

 

Pretty simple .

 

It's simple Karma dawg. !!

 

 

Good point.

 

 

I still think you need to check out the polarity of your magnets.

 

 

Any time. I'm rather enjoying our discussions even though we don't always agree. (Of course, there likely wouldn't be much discussion if we always agreed with each other.)

Edited September 24, 2014 by TaoMaster

[Silent Answers]

It's been said time and time again ... And yes you may try to ignore it... But I shall never tire.

 

Magnets do NOT work like that.

 

- REPELS - ... + ATTRACTS - ... That's not just my belief, it's the simplest fact of magnetism.

 

Happy trolling

[TaoMaster]

Any yang attribute ( see my what is love thread ) will attract more yang attributes. And by the law of duality

 

Ipso facto

 

Any yin attribute will attract more yin attributes .

 

A yang attribute that opposes a yin will generate sensations either yang or yin to the same degree there is more yang or yin .

 

These are the basics of the universe .

 

The more yang the more forward motion and the more yin the more backwards motion.

 

The more yang , the more heat and the more yin cold.

 

Or

 

The more yang the less yin and the more yin the less yang .

 

Any Yin can never fully oppose any yang but any yang can always fully oppose any yin

[Marblehead]

Pos attracts pos and neg attracts neg .

 

Pos is always yang and neg is always yin .

 

Pretty simple .

 

It's simple Karma dawg. !!

 

Seriously. You have this wrong. Positive attracts Negative. Always has, always will. Positive repels Positive and Negative repels Negative.

 

I realize why you need it to be as you suggest but it just isn't that way. And yes, accepting this fact about magnets would require you to re-think your philosophy but it would be a venture of great value.

[Oz_Chiguy]

Wow. I love threads like this.

 

This question is interesting, and if you look at it from a scientific view through theories such as 'schrodingers cat' (quantum theory), it can be said that the tree is neither standing or fallen, but is both (or just is), until of course, an observer causes a collapse of the wave function. So I guess it is both!

[Silent Answers]

But ...

 

The tree's being there is supported by the fact that it began in that spot as a seed...as well as having factual support from other surrounding trees and the animals that call it home, friend or foe. Once a thing *is*, it's as if that thing has been recorded in reality's little book. The observer doesn't have to be human - reality is observing itself, through itself.

 

Quantum theory is amazing, but its analogies are often twisted and taken out of context. Showing that an electron or a particle can behave or actually become a wave under certain conditions is very different from changing the reality of a tree (or a cat) once it already *is*. A single particle on the other hand is so small that it bypasses reality's radar as being insignificant on its own....Therefore, if pressured, it can act on its own, defying reality....unless we are determined to notice it - at which point it has to obey the rules.

 

Well, that's my understanding of it.

 

No doubt though, QM will have plenty of useful applications in the future - Can the mind of reality, slip under its own radar? That's what most are aiming for through meditation. Few succeed.

[Marblehead]

Wow. I love threads like this.

 

This question is interesting, and if you look at it from a scientific view through theories such as 'schrodingers cat' (quantum theory), it can be said that the tree is neither standing or fallen, but is both (or just is), until of course, an observer causes a collapse of the wave function. So I guess it is both!

Thanks for joining in the discussion.

 

However, the cat cannot be both dead and alive at the same time. The tree cannot be both upright and lying on the ground at the same time. It is merely a matter of when we make our observation that determines their status. If we view the cat when it is alive then it is alive. If we view it after it has died then it is dead. Our perspective really has nothing to do with objective reality. We only observe objective reality (if our mind is not clouded), we do NOT determine it.

[TaoMaster]

Wow. I love threads like this.

 

This question is interesting, and if you look at it from a scientific view through theories such as 'schrodingers cat' (quantum theory), it can be said that the tree is neither standing or fallen, but is both (or just is), until of course, an observer causes a collapse of the wave function. So I guess it is both!

 

Bout time you got here bro .

 

Ya it's very very cool. Life and the universe. It's amazing in ways that are limitless. Creativity in a govererned way . Govererned creativity .

 

Yet it's limitless.

 

As for the tree? The tree is just there. It wasn't there before you saw it and it'll vanish as soon as you take your attention off of it .

 

But it's not just the tree. All things , all life forms . EVERYTHING and every one. Gone and then back and then gone and back . Instantly too.

 

It's nothing more than a 360 degree interior viewed projection put there by you inside a sphere.

 

It has dimensions and it changes are you change you point of view from within it .

 

You and only you determine the past and the future . Not just so e of it . All of it . From beginning to end and you do it in a way that is so convincing , you are blinded by the illusion that it's put the by another from another for others and you just happen to be here too .

 

But it's all you . All of it. Including me and this post to you .

 

You are the one who makes things go your way or go against you , every moment of every day from the beginning of infinity to the end of infinity . It never began and it never ends. Not until you say . It s your call . Always has been and will be .

 

http://youtu.be/OlBifX0H3yg

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

As for the tree? The tree is just there. It wasn't there before you saw it and it'll vanish as soon as you take your attention off of it .

But what if you and I were both viewing the tree and when you turned away so that you could no longer see it but I continued viewing it and it remain just as any good tree would?

 

You are mixing up objectivity and subjectivity here, I think.

 

Just because you cannot see the Dumbo Octopus in the deep ocean doesn't mean it does not exist. It only means that it may not exist in your mind. And regretfully, your mind has nothing to do with objective reality. (Neither does mine, BTW.)

[Silent Answers]

Bout time you got here bro . Ya it's very very cool. Life and the universe. It's amazing in ways that are limitless. Creativity in a govererned way . Govererned creativity .

 

Blah blah blah ...http://youtu.be/OlBifX0H3yg

I still think that you blew your mind on DMT and then got stuck that way. (That's not a bad thing though really...wouldn't mind some of that myself)

 

Ok, so as per usual my slightly blunter echo..

 

If what you say is the case, and you are the master of said state...then why aren't you a God? Why are my magnets still not working properly?

[TaoMaster]

But what if you and I were both viewing the tree and when you turned away so that you could no longer see it but I continued viewing it and it remain just as any good tree would?

 

You are mixing up objectivity and subjectivity here, I think.

 

Just because you cannot see the Dumbo Octopus in the deep ocean doesn't mean it does not exist. It only means that it may not exist in your mind. And regretfully, your mind has nothing to do with objective reality. (Neither does mine, BTW.)

 

If we were both there and the tree fell while you watched and I didn't, and I only heard the sound , then this is what happened.

 

The tree fell for you but not me , it only made the sound of falling.

 

When you tell me you've seen the tree fall and you watched it fall , I only see you telling me you saw the tree fall .

 

But it still never fell for me . Only you.

 

I only heard the sound .

 

You can even take a video recording of the tree and show that to me standing next to the tree but when I see the video I'm only seeing an electronic image on a screen of what looks like me and the tree.

 

Time is an illusion . Every instant is in a new unit of time . When you view a mountain top from a distance and you only see the tops and the sky's above , there's nothing on the other side of the mountains . The city or oceans we assume are still there are not . Not until you see them the very instant you view them .

 

This is advanced spirituality . You may not agree with it but that's your choice and many others choice . Not mine : )

 

The person in the chair sitting behind you does not exist until you view the person sitting behind you . Sounds of the person can still happen but only the sounds exist .

 

The illusion is that the person is there when in reality the person is not . The beached whales on the shore line half way round the planet do not exist either. Not unless you see them first hand with you owe yes I the present instant of time .

 

If you want to know what advanced Tao is all about , use my meditative exercises .

 

I you want to continue living the illusions of reality , don't use them . : )

 

 

[Silent Answers]

It was worth waiting for that pure gold! I'm eager to see the reply.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Silent Answers

[allinone]

when i look at the sun then it exists and when i don't then it should be all dark here.

[Brian]

Are you suggesting that a model should at least vaguely resemble that which it is claimed to be modeling?

[Marblehead]

If we were both there and the tree fell while you watched and I didn't, and I only heard the sound , then this is what happened. The tree fell for you but not me ,

You would damn sure know it fell if you were in its path of decline.

 

I am beginning to think that you are an illusion.

 

If you are having a problem with cause and effect then there not much can be done for you.

 

And Sir, you have a long way to go before you could ever qualify as my teacher.

 

Yes, don't assume anything. Don't assume that that other car is going to stop at his red light. You go ahead and stop at all red lights, all yellow lights, and all green lights. Don't assume anything. Don't assume you were in the falling tree's path while it is pounding you like a nail into the ground. Just pretend it's still standing because you looked away and therefore it ne longer even existed let alone started falling directly toward you.

 

No, you go ahead and hug that tree that is laying on the ground because the last time you saw it it was upright so that is how it is supposed to be now.

 

My friend, reality does NOT work like that. Reality doesn't give a shit about you or me or anyone else. Reality can only be what it can be and no one's mind can change that.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

when i look at the sun then it exists and when i don't then it should be all dark here.

That is absolutely correct based on TaoMaster's assessment. (It is totally wrong but it seems that doesn't matter.)

[Marblehead]

Are you suggesting that a model should at least vaguely resemble that which it is claimed to be modeling?

What?

 

Which model? Have I seen her already?

[spatha]

Philip K. Dick - A Maze of Death