TheExaltedRonin

Finally something that suggests mindfulness?

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I've been looking for a direct quote from the ancient texts suggesting mindfulness.

 

In Chapter 37 of the Hua Hu Ching:

 

A superior

person cares for

the well-being of all things.

She does this by accepting

responsibility for the energy

she manifests, both actively

and in the subtle realm.

Looking at a tree, she sees

not an isolated event but root, leaves,

trunk, water, soil and sun: each

event related to the others,

and "tree" arising out

of their relatedness.

 

If so, I'm pretty impressed.

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So Marblehead would you agree that the statement suggests mindfulness?

Yes. Key here are, IMO, accepting responsibility and the concept of the tree; it's not just the tree but everything that contributes to the tree.

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So using that last statement its pretty safe to say taoist mindfulness is thinking and or being aware of each subtlety that's used in any way, shape, or form.

I think that's a fair statement. Understanding the process of Tao is of upmost importance, I think. The example of the tree above spoke to this. Although I don't suggest that all things are connected I do suggest that all things follow the processes of nature that these things draw their live support from.

 

IMO, mindfulness and awareness are closely linked. We can't be mindful if we are not aware and we cannot be aware if we are not mindful.

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That verse clearly points to the interdependent nature of all things (relatedness). Apparent only to those who have the mindful awareness to see the process. Well done!

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I've been looking for a direct quote from the ancient texts suggesting mindfulness.

 

In Chapter 37 of the Hua Hu Ching:

 

A superior

person cares for

the well-being of all things.

She does this by accepting

responsibility for the energy

she manifests, both actively

and in the subtle realm.

Looking at a tree, she sees

not an isolated event but root, leaves,

trunk, water, soil and sun: each

event related to the others,

and "tree" arising out

of their relatedness.

 

If so, I'm pretty impressed.

 

I would agree that this text points to mindfulness, but to me it also touches on another interesting point...

 

A superior

person cares for

the well-being of all things.

She does this by accepting

responsibility for the energy

she manifests, both actively

and in the subtle realm.

 

Looking and seeing correctly is very important, but as the text states a superior person "accepts responsibility for the energy she manifests, both actively and in the subtle realm." The superior person realizes that such energy manifestation happens at both a conscious and subconscious level. The "less" superior person prefers plausible deniability.

 

Best wishes.

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I think I have one...

 

"The sage acts without expectation" TTC I believe. I couldn't tell you where though...someone might need to help me out there.

 

So, act without worrying about the outcome. Just do...

 

No particular details of HOW to be mindful are present. I guess this is the point though...otherwise it gets pedantic. Like telling someone how to be happy would be silly. You would need to describe how the lips rise to smile, and that you might even show a lot of tooth. Feel free to laugh from the belly but most importantly, don't forget to feel that emotion of happiness!

 

Yeah, that would be too far.

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"The sage acts without expectation" TTC I believe. I couldn't tell you where though...someone might need to help me out there.

 

 

Chapter 51

10. Tao engenders it,

11. Te rears it.

12. Grow it and nourish it,

13. Let it grow to maturity,

14. Foster it and protect it.

15. Produce it but not possessing it.

16. Flourishing it but not being vainglorious.

17. Raise it but not controlling it,

18.It was called the abyssal virtue.

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Does not mindfulness, in the first order, suggest memory?

How do you mean...?

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Yep.

Me too. That's mindfulness to me for sure and it's what Thich Nhat Hanh for example or the secular-Mindfulness school boosters would say 'is' mindfulness too.

Is it a bit of a stretch though equating TTC with that essentially Buddhist and root-Theravada tradition definition?

I don't know hence I'm asking.

Was thinking about 'stillness' as a similar concept.

Taoist and Buddhist ideas of stillness for example. Are those necessarily the same things?

Might those mindfulness TTC references be to something other than 'our' definition that you helpfully linked to?

There are TTC experts on here who will know.

 

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Well i'm not an expert but I do think it's stretching it, yes. There are certainly some cross pollinating themes that go throughout the entire Tao Te Ching. Notions that that evoke the same thing, and other ideas/areas where mindfulness could be useful.

 

Like (to start somewhere around the beginning) not prizing the skills of outstanding men. Knowing that competition builds tension and stress calls for mindfulness, for the memory of that 'fact' to come to the fore and influence your decisions regarding the employment of skillful men. Or other things like the abstinence of speech, where, like the weather sudden outbursts have their terminal value and stop after a time, and to push beyond that would be wasteful and stress inducing.

 

But these are more indicative of a theoretical framework, a philosophical underpinning. Calls for the proper application of general knowledge. It's not nearly half as specific as using mindfulness for the express purpose of meditation. To be mindful of breath, for instance. There is a verse in the Tao Te Ching that talks about breath, but it's far more descriptive than prescriptive. Mindfulness here is not called out and advocated.

 

I'd have to say it's pretty inconclusive really. For me, I would be as careful as you are being and not foist on the Tao Te Ching this other definition. I would call mindfulness in the Tao Te Ching textural, and not particle. For me to accept that definition for the Tao Te Ching mindfulness would have to take stage in the same way the Three Treasures do. Specific, prescriptive.

 

But there is still the theme that is important. So I dunno, maybe i'm just being abritrary.

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TTC isn't about Mindfulness as such 'to me' but we each read our own interpretations into whatever we read I suppose so maybe for some it is about mindfulness in places.

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But there is still the theme that is important. So I dunno, maybe i'm just being abritrary.

Not at all... I think you just answered the OP in the most simple way possible!

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TTC isn't about Mindfulness as such 'to me' but we each read our own interpretations into whatever we read I suppose so maybe for some it is about mindfulness in places.

I oppose the idea of interpretation. That is often used as an excuse for most who don't understand to just make up their own version. A way to not understand, if you will.

 

I think Nestentrie replied pretty well!

 

I don't believe TTC, or Taoism, to be centered around mindfulness. It just looks like it is brushed upon as common sense within the text.

Edited by Rara
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Thanks, Rara.

EDIT: And I agree that it's just par for the course (common sense) in the TTC.

Edited by nestentrie
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I oppose the idea of interpretation. That is often used as an excuse for most who don't understand to just make up their own version. A way to not understand, if you will.

I think Nestentrie replied pretty well!

I don't believe TTC, or Taoism, to be centered around mindfulness. It just looks like it is brushed upon as common sense within the text.

Fair comment, and presuming that there is a 'right' interpretation of TTC then you make a good case.

I'm not so sure that's the case 'in all cases'.

For example a Chinese scholar/ philologist will read TTC in her or his particular way whereas someone else may simply read TTC for edification, relaxation or as a meditative exercise.

Those are all 'readings' and whilst our philologist may well claim that her reading of TTC is the 'right' reading; all those other readings are equally valid.

One of the foci for Mindfulness 'training' is reading or recitation of a favourite text ' Mindfully'.

TTC in English is good for that because of it's structure, cadence and layout on the page.

Mindfulness in 'context free' and entirely secular the cultivator chooses the text to work with.

I like TTC so use it, a Christian Mindfulness chum uses the Song of Songs, someone else I know has a favourite poem memorised.

Texts are tools readers bring whatever 'truth' there is to the text 'from the text' and for each reader.

I'm on a slightly slippery slope textually wherever I claim that 'this reading is right BUT that reading is wrong'.

One would need to know of, in order to engage with; ALL readings of the text in question.

Now that would be a big job.

The popular alternative is to accept a given reading via a teacher or preacher and dismiss alternative readings as anathema.

That's popular because it is easy and saves personal engagement by outsourcing one's thinking to someone else.

Edited by GrandmasterP

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Good point.

It's important to define ones terms.

The definition of mindfulness I'm using here is the one that I teach and link to in my TTB sig.....

 

"Mindfulness is a way of paying attention to the present moment, using techniques like meditation, breathing and yoga. It helps us become more aware of our thoughts and feelings so that instead of being overwhelmed by them, we're better able to manage them.

Practising mindfulness can give people more insight into their emotions, boost their attention and concentration and improve relationships. Its proven to help with stress, anxiety, depression and addictive behaviours, and can even have a positive effect on physical problems like hypertension, heart disease and chronic pain."

 

Other, equally valid definitions of mindfulness are available so we do need specify which definition we are using in order to progress debate.

Edited by GrandmasterP

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So using that last statement its pretty safe to say taoist mindfulness is thinking and or being aware of each subtlety that's used in any way, shape, or form.

Is not aware as a conscious act. Rather, to become aware of various factors and law of causality or acausality. A sense of insight and intuition resulted from being with the Tao and knowing the Tao.

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Mindfulness can also be seen as emotionally embracing an even bigger perspective.. for instance, understanding and emotionally embracing that races and nationalities are arbitrary subjective illusions enables one to see individuals as just that.. and even bigger yet , understanding and embracing the idea that bodies are temporary assembleges of molecules which arise from dust and return to dust can foster an appreciation for the uniqueness and of a life while also coming to terms with the ebb and flow of generations wars etc.

The petty confusions drop away as one gets a bigger more accurate perspective,, not as just an argumentative angle but in the form of wisdom about the way things really are.

 

If you met some wise ancient who had somehow survived till the present ,

would you consider him worldly if he was still petty ?

or ,,,,

at peace, 'if he was still venting about how long it takes for the guy behind the counter to make a lunch?

 

I think not , similarly ,,the bigger perspective you could take about perhaps some argument with a close relative

might be that , ;;;in a year it will look stupid ! and meanwhile you deprived yourselves for that time of a closer relationship... time that doesnt return... and that time is no better kept by hanging on to silly illusions , griping to yourself , crying about ones misfortunes , getting embroiled in situations you really dont have any contol over , etc etc.

 

That mindfulness can , and does become perspective, , ( perspective.. being a state removed of illusions) --

If one meditates to shed the illusions their brain is juggling all day long ,, this too removes illusions , and so upholds mindfulness too. Theyre Just different approaches , one dealing with the wider world , and the other dealing with the inner one.

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