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3bob

alright Jeff

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much of the karma going around is related to someone's honor being slighted for which they seek to get even or ahead on...

 

what are your thoughts on where honor ends and karma begins?

 

I think it can very, very quickly turn into a slippery slope when one battles with violence to establish, extract, or force honor. Btw, I still have trouble with some of the teachings in Bhagavad Gita along these lines being that the warriors on both sides of the epic could have chosen to change their stance for sake the first law of non-violence. In other words I think it is 99.99% impossible to fight violently without karma of some degree.

(thus around and around we go)

Edited by 3bob

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Does not the concept of honor itself imply that karma has already begun.

 

Best wishes.

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Jeff,

Maybe yes, maybe no; or in some cases yes and in some cases no. Further, I have no problem with self-defense to fullest measure needed, but lets face it that to can very quickly become a slippery slope for human beings.

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I think it can very, very quickly turn into a slippery slope when one battles with violence to establish, extract, or force honor. Btw, I still have trouble with some of the teachings in Bhagavad Gita along these lines being that the warriors on both sides of the epic could have chosen to change their stance for sake the first law of non-violence. In other words I think it is 99.99% impossible to fight violently without karma of some degree.

I have a lot of problems with the Bhagavad Gita for those reasons too. I can't help but wish the hero had said no to fighting his Uncle, had forbidden hunting/sacrificng the lions or tiger etc.,

Edited by thelerner
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Jeff,

Maybe yes, maybe no; or in some cases yes and in some cases no. Further, I have no problem with self-defense to fullest measure needed, but lets face it that to can very quickly become a slippery slope for human beings.

 

To me, honor implies an attachment to some type of concept. With such an attachment that needs to be "defended" then there is always karma.

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To me, honor implies an attachment to some type of concept. With such an attachment that needs to be "defended" then there is always karma.

 

it could be a concept then again it could be a spiritual way or law, and the guardians or gatekeepers of spiritual ways or laws do not suffer any foolish acts towards same kindly...

Edited by 3bob

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it could be a concept then again it could be a spiritual way or law, and the guardians or gatekeepers of a spiritual way or laws do not suffer any foolish acts towards same kindly...

 

Thanks. Could you give me an example?

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how about at a sampling of say 10,000 various temples (and or well recognized and respected holy sites)somewhere in India?

 

(this area is more of a tangent to my original post but what the heck)

Edited by 3bob

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how about at a sampling of say 10,000 various temples (and or well recognized and respected holy sites)somewhere in India?

 

(this area is more of a tangent to my original post but what the heck)

 

Sorry, I did not mean to distract from your original intent. I just found the topic interesting. Feel free to redirect the topic.

 

I don't quite understand your example. How does fighting for honor (with no karma) relate to "sampling of say 10,000 various temples"?

 

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Sorry, I did not mean to distract from your original intent. I just found the topic interesting. Feel free to redirect the topic. I don't quite understand your example. How does fighting for honor (with no karma) relate to "sampling of say 10,000 various temples"?

 

it relates in several ways with one being that certain people or Beings are responsible for the protection of such sites and that may mean violent battles, seen or unseen.

Edited by 3bob

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it relates in several ways with one being that certain people or Beings are responsible for the protection of such sites and that may mean violent battles, seen or unseen.

 

Intent drives karma. Some such beings are automated responses, would not the karma reside with the person or being who put the automated process in place? If the protector has their own will & intent, with actions based on a percieved sense of "honor", would not there always be karma?

 

I guess my question would be is there such a person or being that is "beyond karma" that is still driven by a sense of "honor". Is not "honor" a percieved attachment/desire?

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Intent drives karma. Some such beings are automated responses, would not the karma reside with the person or being who put the automated process in place? If the protector has their own will & intent, with actions based on a percieved sense of "honor", would not there always be karma? I guess my question would be is there such a person or being that is "beyond karma" that is still driven by a sense of "honor". Is not "honor" a percieved attachment/desire?

 

if one did a little creative extrapolating with some of that reasoning could not karma be traced back to "God"? (or whatever term one prefers)

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if one did a little creative extrapolating with some of that reasoning could not karma be traced back to "God"? (or whatever term one prefers)

 

I guess it depends on your definition of "God" and whether you believe in the concept of free will (to act). From my perspective, all "self-aware" beings have various levels of clarity and free will. Karma is created by the "attachments" to the acts at both a conscious and subconscious level. As one sees/realizes past such attachments, karma is no longer relevant (but such a being does not defend their honor).

 

My definition of "God" is more like "emptiness". And while everything is and happens in the field of "God", there is no point in trying to blame God for "stuff". :)

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Buddhist doctrine points out the historic Buddha defending his teachings, thus I'd take that as a form of honor to him.

 

It sounds to me like you are mostly limiting honor problems to ego type attachments and I can see that... btw seeing and realizing such problems may put a crack in karmas but I don't see such as being all that is needed to equalize it.

 

I never use the term emptiness since ime it is more highly abused and misunderstood than the terms illusion and even God.

I believe there is a Buddhist saying about "no blame", I like that one.

 

As for free will I see that as really being relative will - since no will is free to or able to break Tao, the unbreakable.

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Maybe part of our difference is in the connotations of the word "honor". To me, Buddha would defend his teachings for the purpose of clarity and truth, not because he cared if someone thought less of him or tried to belittle him in a debate.

 

On trying to use words like "God" and "Emptiness"... I definitely agree. Both lead to great confusion. :)

 

Finally, I agree that no one can break the Tao as everything is (or is contained in) the Tao. But, that does not mean that the Tao is not also full of infinite possibilities. :)

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Maybe part of our difference is in the connotations of the word "honor". To me, Buddha would defend his teachings for the purpose of clarity and truth, not because he cared if someone thought less of him or tried to belittle him in a debate.

 

On trying to use words like "God" and "Emptiness"... I definitely agree. Both lead to great confusion. :)

 

Finally, I agree that no one can break the Tao as everything is (or is contained in) the Tao. But, that does not mean that the Tao is not also full of infinite possibilities. :)

 

The tone of your first paragraph is nice but lets face it there have been far more battles fought than just for the purposes of truth and clarity!

 

Terms: Ok, we agree about potential problems with same.

 

Last paragraph: I'd put that a lot differently being that the Tao only has one possibility and that is to be the Tao, whereas all of the infinite variables and or possibilities are "born" of the Tao starting with and contained in "The One".

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The tone of your first paragraph is nice but lets face it there have been far more battles fought than just for the purposes of truth and clarity!

 

Terms: Ok, we agree about potential problems with same.

 

Last paragraph: I'd put that a lot differently being that the Tao only has one possibility and that is to be the Tao, whereas all of the infinite variables and or possibilities are "born" of the Tao starting with and contained in "The One".

 

On battles... I would agree, but then they are subject to karma (my original point).

 

On Terms... Nice.

 

On Last paragraph... Agreed. You have described in more eloquently and with greater detail. :)

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One might ask if or when dharmic battles are subject to karma?

 

(with the often slippery slope of one believing or being told they are doing their dharmic duty and taking care of related honors in such battles and thus they will be free of incurring karmas)

 

One might also ask if the wrathful deities defending dharma are free of karmas, and if so then why or how could they make use of violence as their method for doing so?

Edited by 3bob
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Interesting question... Never really thought about karma relative to wrathful deities. What are your thoughts?

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...

I read somewhere that "wrathful dharma protectors" typically present in compassionate aspect.

 

ie only rarely do they get a little wrathful.

...

Edited by Captain Mar-Vell

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Honor is a tricky thing. Much egoism is disguised as honor. As I've gotten older I'm more suspicious of actions done for one's honor.

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