Anatta (no-self)

[steve]

What path do you wish to seek? Treading the path is not treading any path at all; unborn and completely illusory, the touch of the keys on the keyboard, this very thought, is the pathless path; the path of no-path, not from self, nor other, without seeking, without turning away: revealing utmost simplicity in this very action without clinging to this ephemeral moment. No reference, no thing to rest on, just this illusory display.

If one is able to stabilize and continuously abide in the Nature of Mind that you reference, then no other path is necessary, for one is already Buddha.

How many of us are able to do that continuously?

If not, then there is value in relative paths such as sutra and tantra and their associated practices when we are not abiding in the Nature of Mind.

These activities help us to accrue merit and are more likely to lead us to the state you describe than other activities based in aversion, attachment, and ignorance.

[steve]

So now to the question. If "I" am not my will (4th khandha) and not my consciousness (5th khandha) (nor any of the other khandhas) then who or what is this thing I call me that is aware that I am not these khandhas?

 

Exactly!

 

My $.02, FWIW:

It is the question that is important, not the answer... certainly not someone else's answer.

Keep looking!

You haven't found it yet and none of us can possibly help you other than to reinforce that you're looking in the right direction.

_/\_

[Simple_Jack]

It sounds argumentative, but i am not disagreeing with your assertions. Just stressing the importance of separating what is to be abandoned and what is worthy of refuge. This knowing makes a huge difference in Dharma practice.

 

What is to be abandoned is ignorance and what is to be adopted as worthy of refuge is knowledge:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.than.html

 

"Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way.

"The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Release... Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present...Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance...

"Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean. In the same way:

fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite,

consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite,

name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite,

the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite,

contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite,

feeling has contact as its prerequisite,

craving

has feeling as its prerequisite,

clinging has

craving

as its prerequisite,

becoming has clinging as its prerequisite,

birth has becoming as its prerequisite,

stress & suffering

have birth as their prerequisite,

conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite,

joy has conviction as its prerequisite,

rapture has joy as its prerequisite,

serenity has rapture as its prerequisite,

pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite,

concentration

has pleasure as its prerequisite,

knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has

concentration

as its prerequisite,

disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite,

dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite,

release has dispassion as its prerequisite,

knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.092.than.html

"And what is the noble method that is rightly seen and rightly ferreted out by discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:

When this is, that is.

From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

When this isn't, that isn't.

From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words:

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes

craving

. From

craving

as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of

stress and suffering

.

"Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of

craving

. From the cessation of

craving

comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of

stress and suffering

.

"This is the noble method that is rightly seen and rightly ferreted out by discernment."

 

If one is able to stabilize and continuously abide in the Nature of Mind that you reference, then no other path is necessary, for one is already Buddha.

How many of us are able to do that continuously?

If not, then there is value in relative paths such as sutra and tantra and their associated practices when we are not abiding in the Nature of Mind.

These activities help us to accrue merit and are more likely to lead us to the state you describe than other activities based in aversion, attachment, and ignorance.

 

Exactly. This is why there are four grades of saints i.e. stream-enterer, once-returner, non-returner, foe-destroyer. In the Avatamsaka Sutra, there is the 52 stages of a bodhisattva's progression in the path, culminating with buddhahood; the 10 bhumi's of the path of seeing and path of meditation is included within this schema. Buddhahood is the only actual stage of awakening according to Mahayana.

[Simple_Jack]

The right view is to seek motivation in the knowledge that stress can end, and follow the right path towards that. This is refuge.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html

 

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' [2] ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.' [3]

"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, there arose to Ven. Kondañña the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

And when the Blessed One had set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the earth devas cried out: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deva,Mara or God or anyone in the cosmos." On hearing the earth devas' cry, the devas of the Four Kings' Heaven took up the cry... the devas of the Thirty-three... the Yama devas... theTusita devas... the Nimmanarati devas... the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas... the devas ofBrahma's retinue took up the cry: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deva, Mara, or God or anyone at all in the cosmos."

So in that moment, that instant, the cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds. And this ten-thousand fold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked, while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas.

Then the Blessed One exclaimed: "So you really know, Kondañña? So you really know?" And that is how Ven. Kondañña acquired the name Añña-Kondañña — Kondañña who knows.

[yabyum24]

Looks like some needless nit-picking has derailed this thread.

[Simple_Jack]

Not really, since the above posts directly correlates to anatta, since stream-entry consists of the insight into the 3 seals i.e anicca, dukkha, anatta. All of this is an extension of the Buddha's teachings on dependent arising, the 4-noble truths, 8-fold noble path. Anatta = you are just a bundle of impermanent processes i.e 5 aggregates. There's not an absolute need to extensively learn anything beyond this, but there is a need for confidence in the basic teachings of dependent arising and the 4-noble truths.

[Maddie]

Ok so another question relating to what I assume is the 4th khandha or the will is the issue of the arising of specific cravings. As I already mentioned I understand that I am not my will, and I don't control it, but what is it and how does it operate? What I mean is that sometimes I'll be sitting there minding my own business and strong thoughts, feelings, desires, ect... arise and seemingly out of nowhere. Now I realize this is my will doing its job of wanting things and thinking about things, but understanding the mechanism of what certain things arise sometimes and at other times they do not is beyond my comprehension. Why do things just seem to arise for no apparent reason? And what if anything can I do about it? Especially if the thoughts that arise are unpleasant?

[yabyum24]

What I mean is that sometimes I'll be sitting there minding my own business and strong thoughts, feelings, desires, ect... arise and seemingly out of nowhere.

They arise habitually for your entertainment, nutriment and continuation.

 

If you want freedom from servitude to them, you will need to actually witness their true nature which is the stress of self-grasping. At the same time as this discovery occurs, the way of their release will manifest to you, as will the fact that you do not own them - they are not-self (anatta).

 

Being aware of them is a good first step. It may be depressing to acknowledge them, but at least you are not just reacting, like a puppet whose strings are being pulled.

[Maddie]

Hey Yabyum that sounds like good advice. We do tend to do a lot of stuff on autopilot with out even really knowing that we are doing it or why.

[steve]

Ok so another question relating to what I assume is the 4th khandha or the will is the issue of the arising of specific cravings. As I already mentioned I understand that I am not my will, and I don't control it, but what is it and how does it operate? What I mean is that sometimes I'll be sitting there minding my own business and strong thoughts, feelings, desires, ect... arise and seemingly out of nowhere. Now I realize this is my will doing its job of wanting things and thinking about things, but understanding the mechanism of what certain things arise sometimes and at other times they do not is beyond my comprehension. Why do things just seem to arise for no apparent reason? And what if anything can I do about it? Especially if the thoughts that arise are unpleasant?

 

I'm no authority but will add a few additional thoughts to your questions, FWIW. The "strong thoughts, feelings, desires, ect..." arise from nothing and out of nowhere, literally. They are of the same 'makeup' as everything else you will ever experience. They are referred to as ornaments of the Nature of Mind. They are fleeting "visions" that come and go. They have no substance and yet are extremely powerful and tangible when we separate "ourselves" from them and establish the duality of subject and object. Then we establish a relationship with them and reify them and follow them through samsaric existence. When we are fortunate enough to find a teacher and a practice that can show us the truth, we see that "we" are not separate from these thoughts, feelings, and so on. "We" are equally insubstantial as they are. "We" are manifestations of the fabric of being (emptiness/awareness) just as our thoughts and feelings are and as the "external" world is. When we directly experience this fact, the one taste, we are free of their yoke.

 

The particular types of thought, feeling, emotion, and desire arise as a consequence of the interplay of "karmic traces." These began long before we were born and continue after we die. Everything we think, feel, and do in our lifetime adds to these karmic forces that shape our lives. The Buddhists divide our actions into virtuous, neutral, and non-virtuous. The non-virtuous actions and thoughts (those dealing with aversion, attachment, and ignorance) contribute to those strong thoughts, feelings, and desires becoming more powerful, more unhealthy, and leading to deeper ignorance. The neutral activities neither improve or worsen our lot. The virtuous activities lessen the negative impact of these forces. The Dzogchen approach is to expose, recognize, and stabilize in the knowing of the truth of what is really going on in an effort to cut off the ignorance at its source - our misunderstanding of our true nature.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Nice post Steve:)

So what can we do when thoughts, pleasant or otherwise arise? (Dmattwads)

 

You look directly at the thought and realize its basic nature, that it has no substance... Don,t focus on the content but focus on other aspects like the fact that it appears as a veil, hiding the open space behind it. Focus on the fact the there is a cognition and something that is cognizing. Look directly at the thought but ignore the content. Notice that.the thought has color and location. Notice that some thoughts seem to have a locus or center, which is usually a word and that when you look directly at that thought, it seems to be the main center where the rest is the minor embellishments or relations that have attached to it.

Make it a challenge to examine everything about thoughts and visions.

 

Usually we focus on the content of thoughts and it carries us away like a swift running stream.

 

Don't turn away from the thought as this does not dissolve it.

 

What happens when you look directly at the thought is that it dissolves. When it dissolves it first morphs into little beads of light and then it dissipates. You do the same with visions. The visions dissolve into rainbows and spectacular colors and patterns. The stronger the thought or the vision that you dissolve, the more energy you realize and this makes your attention and awareness even clearer.

 

Eventually, after watching your thoughts and visions for many days of meditation sessions, you wonder who the crazy maniac that regurgitates all these fanatical, overabundance of just plain crazy thoughts is. I realize that most thoughts come from the day,s activities, memories and past lives, but some thoughts and visions are so foreign that they don't even seem to have any connection to anything. I think those are just the spontaneous appearances produced by rigpa (awareness) having fun.

 

You will come to realize that your thoughts are not you. If you study all this for a long time, you will also realize that there is an "I" thought which is cognizing the thoughts and visions. If you further examine that, you will realize that there is something else separate and apart from the "I" thought that is aware, but has no center, or a limitless center. It is what is cognizing the "I" thought, but it seems to be an open space-like awareness. You may never take your thoughts seriously after that.

 

To help isolate the "I" thought,try dropping or relaxing into the space of your heart. Or better yet generate lots of love before and during your meditation sessions. Boddhicitta. Without love, the task is very difficult.

 

[Jetsun]

Ok so another question relating to what I assume is the 4th khandha or the will is the issue of the arising of specific cravings. As I already mentioned I understand that I am not my will, and I don't control it, but what is it and how does it operate? What I mean is that sometimes I'll be sitting there minding my own business and strong thoughts, feelings, desires, ect... arise and seemingly out of nowhere. Now I realize this is my will doing its job of wanting things and thinking about things, but understanding the mechanism of what certain things arise sometimes and at other times they do not is beyond my comprehension. Why do things just seem to arise for no apparent reason? And what if anything can I do about it? Especially if the thoughts that arise are unpleasant?

 

The general mechanism in my experience is that all sorts of thoughts, desires and impulses in us are repressed and held down in our day to day lives until some time when our defences are relaxed a bit they arise into our conscious awareness. There is nothing you can really do about it, those things arise to be seen and liberated, so to have the approach that you need to do something about them to get rid of them is the conflict created by the ego which prevents their natural liberation.

 

A thought is just a thought, it only has power when it is believed to be true and it is only usually believed to be true when it is spun around a story with a separate I as the main character, the belief in a separate I is the glue which holds it all together.

[Maddie]

Good input, thanks. Is it normal or typical that as you begin to let go of thought patterns, see them for what they are, dissolve them, that your mind goes through "withdraw" or "protest"?

[steve]

Good input, thanks. Is it normal or typical that as you begin to let go of thought patterns, see them for what they are, dissolve them, that your mind goes through "withdraw" or "protest"?

Hell yes!

Mine fights like a tiger.

Albeit a somewhat neurotic tiger...

:/

[Maddie]

Hell yes! Mine fights like a tiger. Albeit a somewhat neurotic tiger... :/

 

Well that's comforting in a way to hear. I have one particular very persistent and powerful thought pattern that at times flares up so powerfully that it almost takes over and I'm unable to focus on anything else for the duration of the flare up. Its been a bit disconcerting to realize that this happens on its own and I have no control over it.

[yabyum24]

Well that's comforting in a way to hear. I have one particular very persistent and powerful thought pattern that at times flares up so powerfully that it almost takes over and I'm unable to focus on anything else for the duration of the flare up. Its been a bit disconcerting to realize that this happens on its own and I have no control over it.

I can relate to that.

 

Most people can see how certain situations engender certain responses but what also happens though is - in the absence of any external triggers - the mind still throws stuff up.

 

It's like the mind can't deal with the "sensory deprivation" of desire/aversion. It's the mind's MSG and it always needs more.

 

It's the affirmation, contraction and solidifying of a "self" within these responses which seems to provide the 'kick'. That's what brought us here in the first place, so I guess we shouldn't be so surprised.

[Maddie]

I can relate to that.

 

Most people can see how certain situations engender certain responses but what also happens though is - in the absence of any external triggers - the mind still throws stuff up.

 

It's like the mind can't deal with the "sensory deprivation" of desire/aversion. It's the mind's MSG and it always needs more.

 

It's the affirmation, contraction and solidifying of a "self" within these responses which seems to provide the 'kick'. That's what brought us here in the first place, so I guess we shouldn't be so surprised.

 

This is exactly what happens. No external trigger what so ever and the mind still comes up with stuff to obsess about.

[Maddie]

Something else I've been contemplating. If there is no self (and I believe that there isn't) then what is it that clings to an identity? What is it that resists the loss of identity?

[steve]

 

Something else I've been contemplating. If there is no self (and I believe that there isn't) then what is it that clings to an identity? What is it that resists the loss of identity?

 

Here's a good question -

Who wants to know?

 

Here's a good answer -

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33767-aiming-at-the-space-between-thoughts/?p=532923

Edited March 27, 2014 by steve

[GrandmasterP]

Something else I've been contemplating. If there is no self (and I believe that there isn't) then what is it that clings to an identity? What is it that resists the loss of identity?

 

Delusion maybe?

Dogen says: "You must realize that life-death is itself nirvana. We cannot talk about nirvana without life-death. Accordingly, the world of constant arising and decaying is itself the area of nirvana. Instead of trying to escape life-death, we must remain in this world and, using life-death freely, turn delusion into nirvana and the world of the Buddha..... If we understand that life and death are themselves nirvana, there is no need for avoiding life and death or seeking nirvana. Then, for the first time, there arises the possibility of freeing ourselves from life and death . . . when you no longer have the desire to reject life-death or seek nirvana, you can truly gain nirvana and free yourself from life-death."

 

Dogen is maybe advising us not to resist the - whatever it is that- " resists the loss of identity" simply to observe it, let it go and to gently return to whatever cultivation we are playing.

[yabyum24]

If there is no self (and I believe that there isn't)

Of course there is - who is holding this belief?

[Maddie]

On a similar note what is it that craves? what is the craver?

[ChiDragon]

I am not a Buddhist but it just happens to be that I had brought up and understand some of the Buddhist philosophies. I know I can say this. Everybody has a will. As a Buddhist thinking, his will is not to live for himself but selfless(the not I am) and only concern for other.

I believe that the "not I am" was referred as being "selfless".

Edited March 27, 2014 by ChiDragon

[yabyum24]

On a similar note what is it that craves? what is the craver?

As I see it, craving assembles 'self'. It is 'self' which perpetuates craving.

[Maddie]

As I see it, craving assembles 'self'. It is 'self' which perpetuates craving.

wow simple yet profound! :-)