Does Thinking Stop?

[Yi Tao]

Besides meditation and body awareness, the mental chatter can get in the way with reading and drawing.

 

Speed reading only works when the internal chatter is eliminated (reduced) and the eye is trained to move quicker. These 2 processes go together and reinforce each other. One of the most interesting books I've read on speed reading was called "Speed Reading with Semantic Restructuring." It's available as a free ebook online. (http://www.semanticrestructuring.com/lookma.php)

 

Drawing, done right, is a non verbal activity. When you learn to draw with your eyes and your right brain, the chatter stops because you're thinking with the non-verbal side of your brain. Through drawing, I've been able to experience reality without the constant chatter. I've been involved in shapes, contrasts, and lines. After 10-15 minutes of drawing, I'll realize that the chatter was silent. I am able to recognize the brain shift that took place, but then the chatter starts to analyzing the brain shift.... Sigh. The book "The New Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards is an excellent self study book and easily accessible.

[Spectrum]

verbal k oans can open worm wholes

 

non-verbal dialogs turn the internal doorway keys

 

naturally hypnogogic states are more difficult to navigate if the chatter turns to hallucination

 

dialog and visionary imagery are easily guided along the path of story stored within

 

without which the story stored without

 

travels the journey of relocating

 

from life to death

 

active participant or quiet observer

 

silence profound stillness foundational

 

star filled eyes through mirrored windows

 

what is that isnt

 

forms and reforms

 

dies and is reborn

 

falls into flying

 

dissolves into alignment

 

is formless less form of r

 

circles squares rounds edges

 

forms forks decisively optional

 

mindlessly thoughtful

 

is am will be

 

one mind

Edited May 26, 2007 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

Only a true sage masters true understanding. What does "true sage" mean? The true sages of old never

avoided want, never flaunted perfection, never worked at schemes. If you're like that, you can be wrong

without remorse and right without conceit. You can scale the heights without trembling in fear, dive into

deep water without getting wet, walk into fire without getting burned. This is how understanding can

ascend delusion into the heights of Tao.

 

I agree with this. It's humorous how ego and self awareness are involved in what we experiencing. The dissolution of subject object awareness relationships require a very centered, rooted and anchored practice of mind. The first exercises I was taught were single point meditations, which looking back had a very focusing and clearing effect on mental chatter when doing gung. I believe had my mentors not emphasized this exercise for the cultivation of yi that later phenomenological chi experiences would be unable to be integrated into daily life and practice, or worse, fragmented awareness. I am thankful that my teachers have emphasized the importance of stillness in the practices.

 

Your dialog here is refreshing.

 

Spectrum

[fatherpaul]

this hollow

 

world

 

flows slowly

 

through

 

the Void

 

all creation

 

cracks open

 

quickly fading

 

into enptiness

[Spectrum]

stop not

 

yet

 

lengthen

 

pause

[Yen Hui]

I want to share my litterature-list with you some day, and tell you about education.

Hi there rain ~

 

Many thanks for taking the time to share from the heart! I identified with it on many levels. I would like to see

your literature-list some day, for sure, when you're in the mood. PM's are on if you like. Pease, harmony, and

happiness to you (and all)! ~ Yen Hui

[Fa Gong Shakya]

Someone told me today that even with long practice in meditation, you don't really stop the constant mind chatter, you merely step back and observe it happening. I had always thought the object was to shut it down. Anyone want to give me their experiences in the matter?

 

Hello Tao Parrot :-)

 

I suppose it depends entirely upon what the object is. Despite many opinions to the contrary, different meditational methods do provide different outcomes.

 

The focus on stopping thought processes itself (also commonly known as "samatha") is designed to stop the fluctuations of mental content so that a one-pointed focus can be obtained. I would be one who would suggest that this provides great therapeutic benefit, but little "spiritual" (although it is a necessary skill to develop before any other form of meditation will be effective).

 

The focus on observation of the contents of the mind (also commonly known as "vipassana") developed, essentially, as a Buddhist development on samatha techniques. This is also often referred to as "mindfulness".

 

Some schools of Chan/Zen take this one step further, and apply the hua-tou (similar to a koan) of "who sees these thoughts?" (or something similar) and use thoughts to provide a pointer to "him who thinks".

 

Being of this Chan tradition myself, not only would I disagree with the goal of "thought stopping", but would advise against it. The great master Hsu Yun said this resulting vacant void was a trap, akin to "soaking stones in water" and advised the practitioner to rouse him/herself against it and keep pursuing the question "who am I?" or "who is it who meditates?" or who is it who thinks?"

 

Amitofo

 

Fa Gong Shakya, OHY

Cooroona-Opal Sangha

[gendao]

Being of this Chan tradition myself, not only would I disagree with the goal of "thought stopping", but would advise against it. The great master Hsu Yun said this resulting vacant void was a trap, akin to "soaking stones in water" and advised the practitioner to rouse him/herself against it and keep pursuing the question "who am I?" or "who is it who meditates?" or who is it who thinks?"

All manifest phenomena that we think about is part of the "illusion." They are fingers pointing at the moon - or even away from the moon. Making us forget our true selves - who we are without thought?

 

Forget about thinking.

And remember who you are.

 

"Over-thinking, over-analyzing separates the body from the mind." - Tool

[forestofsouls]

The focus on stopping thought processes itself (also commonly known as "samatha") is designed to stop the fluctuations of mental content so that a one-pointed focus can be obtained. I would be one who would suggest that this provides great therapeutic benefit, but little "spiritual" (although it is a necessary skill to develop before any other form of meditation will be effective).

 

The focus on observation of the contents of the mind (also commonly known as "vipassana") developed, essentially, as a Buddhist development on samatha techniques. This is also often referred to as "mindfulness".

 

 

 

These are some interesting thoughts.

 

Samatha and vipassana, in the Theraveda tradition, support one another. It's not about stopping thought per se, but about focusing the mind. Just like you can't get a clear picture with a shaky camera, its hard to observe anything if your mind is bouncing around. You need "access concentration" first, or rudimentary concentration.

 

I would think that it would be hard to pursue the internal inquiry (Who observes?) you propose without a similar ability to concentrate.

[Spectrum]

Stare at a wall until it blacks out.

 

Relax, your mind. Relax, the eyes. Relax, body.

 

Focus, on letting go. Let go, of Focus. Relax, into focus.

 

Breath in; focus. Breath out; relax, into letting go.

 

Fixed point perriferally receptive.

 

Letting go of the neccessity of thought.

 

Something and Nothing are free to dance before you.

 

Its what you are.

 

Breath.

 

Spectrum

[Trunk]

Samatha and vipassana, in the Theraveda tradition, support one another. It's not about stopping thought per se, but about focusing the mind. Just like you can't get a clear picture with a shaky camera, its hard to observe anything if your mind is bouncing around. You need "access concentration" first, or rudimentary concentration.

 

I would think that it would be hard to pursue the internal inquiry (Who observes?) you propose without a similar ability to concentrate.

Solid.

[Spectrum]

You need "access concentration" first, or rudimentary concentration.

 

 

My first mentor emphasized the importance of the single pointed mind meditations unity w/ body, the complete application of will through activity that require both body and mind. He considered this to be cultured development, and called it Cultivation of Yi. It was the basic prerequisite before other training. It is a kind of a combination mind/body unity wuji exercise using a small 2lb barbell weight. This is the way the mind entrains to experiencing chi flow w/ thought/intent/action. Coupled w/ push hands a person can learn how to keep their mind clear fairly quickly w/ the biofeedback loops the body naturally provides. W/ this Zeroed Compass if you will the adept then sets off on their own journeys through the forest of life.

 

The importance of establishing solid physical connections when training chi gung can't be emphasized enough. Weather health or martial, a feedback loop provides a load which you generate a growth curve in response to. Your mind is just riding the down and up cycles. Rooting the mind in emptiness provides the neccesary sensory boundaries needed for many many different types of "gung". Having WuJi as a common reference point allows for an endless multitude of formless variations.

 

We grow all over the place, we so naturally tend too cultivate.

 

Spectrum

[fatherpaul]

sorry

i was going to reply

but thought stopped

[Spectrum]

Besides meditation and body awareness, the mental chatter can get in the way with reading and drawing....

 

Speed reading only works when the internal chatter is eliminated (reduced) and the eye is trained to move quicker. .....

 

Drawing, done right, is a non verbal activity. When you learn to draw with your eyes and your right brain, the chatter stops because you're thinking with the non-verbal side of your brain. Through drawing, I've been able to experience reality without the constant chatter. I've been involved in shapes, contrasts, and lines. After 10-15 minutes of drawing, I'll realize that the chatter was silent.

 

Missed this one earlier. Nice insight. Done the same myself. I would add that after an extended time meditating on shape a kind of overlay occurs in which you start seeing shapes through suggestable lines. A nice approach to a geometric education.

 

http://www.sacredcircuits.net/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=301

 

Spectrum

[mYTHmAKER]

Missed this one earlier. Nice insight. Done the same myself. I would add that after an extended time meditating on shape a kind of overlay occurs in which you start seeing shapes through suggestable lines. A nice approach to a geometric education.

 

http://www.sacredcircuits.net/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=301

 

Spectrum

 

Nice drawings - good feeling to them

[Ayudar]

Someone told me today that even with long practice in meditation, you don't really stop the constant mind chatter, you merely step back and observe it happening. I had always thought the object was to shut it down. Anyone want to give me their experiences in the matter?

 

Very interesting question, and one that is often discussed in many forms. In most discussions and what we read about, such as in meditation, we are told that it stops. Then again, some say it lessens--which I think is closer to the truth. One question we might give thought to is, Can thought be seperated from mind? On a subtle level, though the vibration of thought has been lessened, thinking probably continues in another form. Wjen we say we observe, what we want to believe is that we are not attaching ourselves to the activity and chatter we observe, but if we see it and recognize it, then what is it in the mind? We can say it's a movement of energy, and chatter is also a movement of energy regardless of its level.

 

In my own experience, when I reach a single point that my mind is fully focused and hits the target of nothingness, where all things disappear, a void appears and something in this void speaks to me. At other times, when I move my consciousness to a single point at the navel "tan tien", and my energy concentrates itself there for a fraction of a second and mind disappears, I experience an explosive surge of energy and light rise in me; it's so powerful that when it happens it actualy lifts me from my seat about an inch into the air. Most of all, when I find that my thoguths have ceased in the mortal state of mind, I leave my body and enter into an OBE experience in full consciousness and journey in the spirit realms.

 

So, in my opinion, thinking can be viewed in different ways. The subconscious thinks in a language of images. The heart thinks in a language of feelings and emotions, the brain in ways we identify as thought, the soul and spirit thinks in its own terms as well, and most of us may just not recognize that we are still thinking. Intuition is perhaps the thinking process of the soul for all we know.

 

Maybe the idea is not so much to struggle with the concept of stopping mind chatter, but rather to recognize that it is simply an expression of energy expressed as...vibration, like anything else around us. If one then gets in touch with the vibration of mental activity, and experiences it for what it truly is in it naked form, then where is the chatter?

 

Ayudar

[Spectrum]

The dissolution of the subject object relationship rids the eye of the mind that observes and the body that feels through true understanding of self and others.

 

There must be tens of thousands of dimensions of dialog, but only 5 senses. How many ways through the rainbow there are? I wonder, O wonder...

 

Spectrum

[WhereDidILeaveThatSelf...]

I would say that you should not be attached to the thoughts, rather than observing them as they go. If you consciously observe your thoughts, you would then be almost repeating the same process that your mind goes through in generating them in the first place!

You don't want to be in the position of feeling like a man in the back row of a cinema watching a film and thinking about what passes.

Just let the thoughts happen and let them go. Don't try to stop themcoming in the first place and don't aim for a blank mind!

One good practice I got from a Tai Chi Teacher was to do with sound. Just sit and each time you hear a sound, rather than think about the sound itself just mentally say 'sound'. The idea of this practice is that you gradually learn to hear a noise without attaching any thoughts or meaning to it.

I find this to be effective.

remember that this is just my -current- view : )

 

 

t

[fatherpaul]

thinking (thought) does not stop

the mind simply dies to its activities.

 

 

peace

paul

[buddabubba]

reference Zen and (Absolute) samadhi

 

thinking (reflecting) DOES "stop" when one reaches a deep enough level of samadhi

 

this is not something which comes easily - tremendous, long term, sustained effort is required

 

(I highly recommend Zen Training by Katsuki Sekida - extract link below)

 

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=14414

[rain]

reference Zen and (Absolute) samadhi

 

thinking (reflecting) DOES "stop" when one reaches a deep enough level of samadhi

 

this is not something which comes easily - tremendous, long term, sustained effort is required

 

(I highly recommend Zen Training by Katsuki Sekida - extract link below)

 

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=14414

 

exactly what do you refer to by the term

TREMENDOUS long term effort ?

 

a year be sufficient?

how stubborn are you?

 

it is a matter of leaving behind the maddening illusion of having to cling to context.

you will still have a consciousness, resting pre context.

 

the illusion of in-built opposition between paradoxes is just as out of date

as Einsteins theory of relativity.

 

it IS quiet.

Edited June 27, 2007 by rain

[buddabubba]

exactly what do you refer to by the term

TREMENDOUS long term effort ?

 

I simply mean that in my experience, the mind resists being quieted, quite powerfully. Getting the so called chatter to really stop for any length of time over a minute, if that, is a long and difficult process.

 

To say that there is an easy way to truly quiet the mind (achieving samadhi) contradicts everything I have personally experienced as well as all the teachings of all the Ways, insofar as I understand them. If your method (of achieving samadhi) involves a practice of trying to think yourself into not thinking, or if it claims to be effortless or easy, then I would question your method (of achieving samadhi).

 

I think that meditation is a serious business, and it must be trained with both seriousness and diligence.

 

Meditation for emptying the mind is more of a physical than mental process (the technique, that is). Of course, both facets are ever present, but when I say tremendous effort, I primarily mean physical effort, especially in the beginning.

 

I am not suggesting that there isn't value in meditation techniques such as simple visualization, or 'listening', etc. I practice those myself, as well. I am merely saying that their value does not lie in their effectiveness at emptying the mind and attaining samadhi.

 

a year be sufficient?

how stubborn are you?

 

How long does it take to grow a tree?

 

You can't grow a tree overnight, nor can you set a time frame on how long it takes to grow one.

 

Of course, too, that tree never stops growing, does it? Neither do you. Maybe that's what I mean...

[rain]

You can't grow a tree overnight, nor can you set a time frame on how long it takes to grow one.

 

Of course, too, that tree never stops growing, does it? Neither do you. Maybe that's what I mean...

 

 

 

yes

[fatherpaul]

reference Zen and (Absolute) samadhi

 

thinking (reflecting) DOES "stop" when one reaches a deep enough level of samadhi

 

this is not something which comes easily - tremendous, long term, sustained effort is required

 

(I highly recommend Zen Training by Katsuki Sekida - extract link below)

 

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=14414

 

thinking, (thought) carries on in other beings

mind dies to its influence if you will.

it is not a matter of effort,

its a matter of seeing things the way they are.

 

peace,

paul

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform