Gospel of Thomas

[qofq]

On 1/26/2019 at 6:04 AM, Jeff said:

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

This one makes me do a double take.  

Makes me question the esoteric reasons Jesus sacrificed himself.  

 

I remember reading in some random place of peoples ideas about humanity "getting lost" in this layer of reality or something to that effect.   

 

@Jeff do you have any thoughts on what I'm relaying here?

Edited January 28, 2019 by qofq

[Fa Xin]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

 

I really love this verse. I especially like to tell it to my friends who are Catholic and Orthodox Christians. 

 

For me it represents living in the present moment. Not needing to wait until you die to see the Fathers kingdom. It is inside of you, and outside of you. It is not anywhere but here and now. 

[mrpasserby]

On 1/28/2019 at 6:30 PM, Fa Xin said:

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

I spent many decades sifting the esoteric info. out of historical documents, This is a impressive bit of clear info that I apparently missed or forgot. In support of this I offer a bit of current information, howbeit hearsay. I have discovered that several of the spirits 'that I have had something to do with', and who are functional, that where living in the USA seem to have moved to the New York area. This knowledge led me to inquiring about and I discovered a source of hearsay, that stated to me the following, 'there is a unseen world pyramid near New York'. I wouldn't be caught alive(pun intended) in New York, but apparently a number of functional spirits seam to like it enough to have migrated there. Who Knew!

Edited January 30, 2019 by mrpasserby
clarifying information

[Jeff]

15 hours ago, qofq said:

 

This one makes me do a double take.  

Makes me question the esoteric reasons Jesus sacrificed himself.  

 

I remember reading in some random place of peoples ideas about humanity "getting lost" in this layer of reality or something to that effect.   

 

@Jeff do you have any thoughts on what I'm relaying here?

 

Very interesting idea, and some of my own recent meditations have been related to a similar concept. Your question ultimately fits in with the concept of a “new world” that arises as described in the book of Revelations. In a way, you could say you are right as the concept of original sin could be thought of the nature or limited capability of the human world system. That human beings are limited because of the built in (body level) separation that needs to be realized/integrated to become whole (which is all of the separate two becoming one or previous verse talking about woes with a body or soul needing each other).  With the second coming in Christianity, there is sort of this built in integration as part of the new world.  Some would call it that divine beings will be more easily accessible.  At a human body level, there is an increase in the amount of energy/light that it can hold without destabilizing like many traditions describe as ascending.

[whitesilk]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:41 AM, mrpasserby said:

'there is a unseen world pyramid near New York'

 

Under the lion's den explore the temple of whom?

 

Perhaps Gertrude Stein in Bryant park holds the key.

Edited February 5, 2019 by whitesilk
addendum

[Fa Xin]

Sadly all good things must come to an end...

Edited February 8, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

[whitesilk]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

Is this the word? Where have you gotten this verse? The gospel of thomas? Where is an actual transvestite Christan? I would like to meet one.

[Taoist Texts]

7 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

Where is an actual transvestite Christan?

there is one in Rome. Long flowing robes, a good selection of hats. A feminist too!

[whitesilk]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

there is one in Rome. Long flowing robes, a good selection of hats. A feminist too!

 

I heard that she is on vacation in Dubai.

[Fa Xin]

40 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

Is this the word? Where have you gotten this verse? The gospel of thomas? Where is an actual transvestite Christan? I would like to meet one.

 

This is the last verse of the Gospel of Thomas.

 

For me it is referring to energetic poles of transmission and reception, as most stuff in the bible is not a physical thing but spiritual/energetic (according to the Gnostic interpretations.)

[Jonesboy]

10 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

This is one of the most misunderstood quotes in the Gospel of Thomas and yet it is one of my favorites.

 

In just about every tradition there is recognition of two polarities, of Yin and Yang, Siva and Shakti of Male and Female aspects.

 

When one moves beyond form or realizes the soul, emptiness of self in Buddhism you realize both aspects. Males realize the female, female realize the male. This is beyond a residing in, a feeling of energy and silence, it is a realization that they are one and the same. A true change in being.

 

In Buddhism there are Buddha's with both male and female aspects if that helps anyone.

 

Also, notice that Jesus is clearly saying that such realizations is not just for men.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

This is a specific statement that women have the same spiritual capability as men, as opposed to the Jewish view that woman where not fully human (and not allowed to go into the inner temple).  A more complete version of the broader energy/light concept is found in this verse...

 

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

[whitesilk]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Make Mary leave us

 

I seem to remember something in the book of Matthew about the abolishment of marriage.

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

That translation makes me cringe.  Here's the logia from my favorite source:

Simon Peter said to them:  Let Mary go out from among us, because women are not worthy of the Life.  Jesus said:  See, I shall lead her, so that I will make her male, that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males.  For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 57 log. 114, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

I'm with Jeff, concerning the relevance of logia 22 here.  If you'll bear with me a bit, I believe I can bring it back around to logia 22 and 114.

 

There's a sermon in the Pali Canon where Gautama the Buddha describes a method for cultivating psychic power:

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.
As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;
as below, so above: as above, so below:
as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.
Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society)

There's an expansion for all of it except the first two lines.  Here's what I had to say when I wrote about those two lines (for the rest, see the reference below):

“As in front, so behind; as behind, so in front”: Gautama did not expand on his meaning with regard to “in front” and “behind”. Some have interpreted his words to be a reference to the past and the future, but in light of the explanation offered for the second line, a more likely interpretation would perhaps be an awareness of the body before and behind.

When the feeling for stretch and activity that Fuxi described with the words “…I ride the ox” carries into the lower back and abdomen, a reciprocity of stretch and activity behind the sacrum and lower back and in front of the lower abdomen enters awareness, and the advice here is to allow consciousness to shift as necessary in the development of feeling.

(The Gautamid Offers a Practice)

I then wrote this about the part of log. 22 we're discussing in 114:

“When you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female (not) be female”: consciousness of the stretch and activity behind the lower back and in front of the contents of the lower abdomen can become consciousness of stretch and activity behind the sacrum and tailbone and in the vicinity of the genitalia. Such experience is independent of the sex of the individual, and is offered here as a recurrent condition of practice.

 

(From the Gospel of Thomas)

 

There is also this:

 

The stretch added to the fascia behind the sacrum by the mass of the extensor muscles as they contract depends in part on the angle of the tailbone and sacrum relative to the spine. As the sacrotuberous ligaments stretch and resile with the rotation of the pelvis, activity is generated in the muscles of the pelvic floor that can tuck the tailbone and rotate the sacrum slightly . A pivot of the sacrum angles the mass of the extensors into the lumbodorsal fascia (behind the sacrum and the lower back) slightly lower than otherwise, and in turn the lower rearward press on the fascia changes the angle required for the relaxed carriage of weight between the neck and skull.

 

The stretch and resile of the sacrotuberous ligaments and the consequent reciprocal activity in the left and right muscles of the pelvic floor is described by Fuxi as “the ox crosses the wooden bridge”.

(Twenty-Second Case: Hsueh Feng's Turtle-Nosed Snake)

 

The "left and right muscles of the pelvic floor" include the pubococcygeus muscles, and these muscles play a part in human sexuality (for a while, "Kegels" were recommended to help women find satisfaction in their sexual relationships, as well as to reduce incontinence). 

 

"The male will not be male and the female (not) be female", when the activity "before and behind" low in the torso and the activity in the muscles of the pelvic floor is experienced outside of a sexual context, and as I said "as a recurrent condition of practice."

 

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

16 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

Thus, only the male enters Heaven.
Female who wish to enter Heaven must resemble male : that probably means women must learn to think.

[timpani]

On 2/7/2019 at 8:18 PM, Fa Xin said:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

 

Simon Peter saw Mary’s form.  Jesus saw her being.  🙂

 

Jesus is stating an intent to show Mary how to transmit light, and he’s saying to Simon Peter that all women are capable of it. 

[Fa Xin]

2 minutes ago, timpani said:

 

 

Simon Peter saw Mary’s form.  Jesus saw her being.  🙂

 

Jesus is stating an intent to show Mary how to transmit light, and he’s saying to Simon Peter that all women are capable of it. 

 

Very nice. I agree. 😊

[kondensation]

On 29.1.2019 at 4:30 AM, Fa Xin said:

 

I really love this verse. I especially like to tell it to my friends who are Catholic and Orthodox Christians. 

 

For me it represents living in the present moment. Not needing to wait until you die to see the Fathers kingdom. It is inside of you, and outside of you. It is not anywhere but here and now. 

 

If your friends doubt the legitimacy of the Gospel of Thomas, the same is found in Matthew and Luke, "People will tell you, 'Look, there He is,' or 'Here He is.' Do not go out or chase after them" quoting from Luke 17:23.

[Toni]

(56) Jesus said, "Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world."

 

Good one, like the buddhists talking of emptiness and illusion. So wise this sentence

 

(86) Jesus said, "The foxes have their holes and the birds have their nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head and rest."

 

So it seems we have no peace, always uneasy! Calm down!

 

(89) Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not realize that he who made the inside is the same one who made the outside?"

 

Don't forget your soul

Edited May 3, 2019 by Toni

[mlinssen]

On 08/02/2019 at 7:11 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

That translation makes me cringe.  Here's the logia from my favorite source:

Simon Peter said to them:  Let Mary go out from among us, because women are not worthy of the Life.  Jesus said:  See, I shall lead her, so that I will make her male, that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males.  For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 57 log. 114, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Whenever (3 occasions there) Thomas speaks of the Kingdom in combination with Heaven, he always speaks of "the kingdom of the heavens". Guillaumont knew that, his Coptic was more than good enough - yet he chose to hide that truth, like most others have done since.

But login 114 is a deep and fun one, and the real fun part is that Mariham gets the prize...

 

114 said Simon Peter behold : let! ⲙⲁⲣ.ⲓ.ϩⲁⲙ come outward of our heart/mind: the women worth not of the life.

said IS : lo-behold myself I will draw her in-order-that I will make-be her male So-that she will come-to-be likewise she of a Spirit, he living, he resemble you males : every woman she will make-be her male she will go-inward to the reign-of king of the heavens

 

A literal translation. Greek loanwords are capitalised. I still haven't come around a thorough investigation of this logion, and suspect wordplay in the last phrase

[mlinssen]

On 21/01/2019 at 10:09 PM, Jeff said:

 

Yes, I would agree that such attempted mapping of concepts are common. But, I know of no such teaching from Jesus that states or implies illusory nature of the world.  If anything, I would say that it is much closer to a more Taoist view.  Where earthly life leads to death, but there is the potential to realize the underlying heavenly body (similar to immortal).

I agree to that, and that's why I joined this forum

 

Perhaps it is informative to know that the protagonist of Thomas is called "IS", not Jesus. There is a whole scheme on so-called nomina sacra of which this allegedly would be one, but no one can explain how they came into being, and while most claim that they are abbreviations, the oldest texts that we have all say IS or IHS (the Greek eta), so if what is that an abbreviation?

That, on a side note

 

Thomas talks about the Kosmos, ⲕⲟⲥⲙⲟⲥ in Coptic, which gets translated as World. It is one of 500 Greek loanwords in his text, and all have a deeper metaphysical meaning. He juxtaposes plain Coptic words to their Greek "siblings" in order to point out their differences

 

The World in Thomas stands for our image of the world, as each has his or her own. It is folly to chase that world, to feed it, to keep it alive - by paying attention to it and taking it seriously

 

What Taoist concepts would be similar there?

[mlinssen]

On 28/01/2019 at 4:57 AM, Fa Xin said:

 

I've always thought they are the same, as it is "woe" that they try to exist independently...  I've also thought that is part of Jesus' deeper mystery, like the last verse about the inner and the outer being the same.  

 

 

Exactly. It is similar to logion 87

 

87 said he viz. IS : a Miserable is the Body which is-hung of a Body and a Miserable is the Soul which is-hung of these both-together

 

And that again is similar to logion 29

 

29 said IS if have the Flesh come-to-be because-of Spirit a wonder is (the flesh) if Spirit However because-of the Body a wonder of wonder is (the body) Rather myself come marvel-at of this : How/Why? did this great reign-of rich-man did she dwell in this reign-of poor

 

On reincarnation, is logion 29, and all are on duality. Why split yourself in body, soul, flesh, whatever - what is the use of that? What is the purpose, where is the goal?

Do you think you existed as spirit and now have become flesh? Or were you once a body but now a spirit, waiting on a new flesh?

 

Is it typical of the Tao, to (not) believe in reincarnation?

[mlinssen]

On 29/12/2018 at 4:34 PM, Jeff said:

 

Here is the longer version from the Tao Te Ching of making two into one. The first part is integrating the male and female (energy sides), then knowing the white (clear light), while keeping/integrating the black (emptiness of light)...

 

TWENTY-EIGHT

Know the strength of a man, But keep a woman’s care!

Be the stream of the universe!

Being the stream of the universe, Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more.

Know the white, But keep the black! Be an example to the world!

Being an example to the world, Ever true and unwavering, Return to the infinite.

Know honor, Yet remain humble. Be the valley of the universe!

Being the valley of the universe, Ever true and resourceful, Return to the state of the uncarved block.

When the block is carved, it becomes useful. When the wise use it, they become rulers.

Thus, “A great tailor makes few cuts.”

 

And when a ruler (immortal) tells (transmits) for a mountain to move, it will move...

That is fantastic!

 

The text is very interesting: the verb used is the second (1. is intransitive, 2. is transitive)

 

ⲡⲱⲱⲛⲉ (ⲉ-)	–	be changed to, turn toward turn to, transfer
ⲡⲱⲱⲛⲉ (ⲉⲃⲟⲗ)	–	move out, go forth carry out, remove

The preposition is slightly different, but there is a strong undertone of change, of turning. My translation says "turn outward" in order to preserve that. It's funny enough to have a mountain move, but to turn?

 

Thomas jokes again here: mountain is ⲧⲟⲟⲩ, and that also is a verb: to buy. And we know what Thomas thinks of buyers (logion 64).

A similar noun is ϯⲟⲩ, the Coptic word for 5...

 

[mlinssen]

On 01/01/2019 at 6:06 PM, Fa Xin said:

 

You can never go too far or be out of reach.  I also feel like we are all the “one sheep” that he loves most.  We are not separate, and no one is more loved than another. 😊

 

On 01/01/2019 at 3:35 PM, Fa Xin said:

107. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety-nine.'"

 

This one is essential, although most are. 

The essence is in the sheep being great, like the fish; the adjective appears in logia 8, 12, 20, 29, 96, 107, linking them all

But the trick is that the shepherd "seeks-after" the sheep, a verb that occurs in logia 18, 24, 38, 60, 76, 92, 107. It has a connotation of paying attention to, and it is different from seeking in the sense that it comes as a bit of an afterthought - I don't know how to really express it but it is similar to chasing perhaps

 

But we all should go astray like the sheep, of course. Ignore the flock that just follows the rules they were programed with. The sheep most certainly isn't lost! It is exactly the other way around, and the shepherd follows suit: "have make-be he to-toil", and once again Thomas is perfectly ambiguous about the 'he' there. But toiling is the essence to seeking, although finding is not what the shepherd does: he seeks after and then falls to, two very different verbs and actions

 

It is a truly beautiful logion, it seems so straightforward but it isn't. Of course LOL

Edited February 5, 2021 by mlinssen
Typo