Gospel of Thomas

[Bindi]

 

2 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

You could either assume that the gospels may contain records of historical events, heavily coloured with mythology here and there ...

 

...or you could assume that the gospels are the accurate story of Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, that -for us men and for our salvation- came down from heaven and was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

 

With the first approach, you know that those things which doesn't fit the canonical theology (for example " And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one ") are clues of a more down-to-earth and realistic story. The real events behind the myth.

 

With the second approach you know that this guy talked about a spiritual truth that you already possess because you studied some chinese/indian philosophies and that you can interpret his spiritual sayings with the light of your knowledge. If you're affiliated with Iskon, you believe that Krishna is the "heavenly father" or if you studied some daoist alchemy, you may think that the kingdom of God was some sort of dantien or niwan palace. If you studied buddhism, you're 100% sure that Jesus was talking about Pristine Awareness or something along that line.

 

I wonder which one is the theory with more problems...

 

"The spirit of Truth is within you, but he's wrong most of the time"

 

 

 

 

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That is enough,” he replied.

 

It looks to me like he is trying to set himself up conclusively as the Messiah, dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's, he doesn't come over as that interested in swords really when just two will do. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Bindi

[Bindi]

20 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

(54) Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor; for yours is the kingdom of heaven”

 

on the surface I can see this one is about seeing thru worldly possessions, pursuits and pitfalls...

maybe more ?

 

I think poor means actually poor, one of the groups of people who are blessed, as opposed to the powerful rich. Jesus offers promises to the poor, the hungry, those who weep and those who suffer religious persecution, they are promised the kingdom now and blessings later, including enough to eat, laughter and heavenly reward. 

 

In contrast to these stand the rich, those who are well fed, those who laugh and those who receive praise. Their fate is sorrow, hunger and mourning. 

 

It points to me towards a Jesus who favours the poor, the sinners, the outcasts and the worthless. He's reevaluating the standard societal perspective. 

[Fa Xin]

(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me.“

 

This one is a little more of a challenge...

 

To me it means more of what 54 is about - sacrificing and letting go of attachments, but in this form of your loved ones.  Especially transcending the expectations and path - your story - that your family and parents have created for you. Your conditioning.

 

He also talks about "taking up HIS cross" - thinking and deciding for yourself... following your own way.

 

Also, looking ahead to 56... I see a pattern emerging in these few verses...

Edited October 20, 2017 by Fa Xin

[Cheshire Cat]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

My point is simply that what Jesus actually is quoted as saying in bible (whether really existed or not), does not at all support your radical zealot view of him.  He talks about peace, love, forgiveness and turning the other cheek.  Even when they come to take him, he does not want to fight them, but instead heals the High priest who was wounded. If the gospels are really supposed to be about a radical revolution at an earthly world level, it does an extremely poor job.  Constantly saying that earthly stuff, just leads to death. Here is another examples of what the gospels actually preach...

 

Is that your point?

 

The four gospels, the famous group of texts which were written after Paul's epistles and were specifically chosen (amongst a variety of different manuscripts) to explain, support and demonstrate this particular christian view of the world: they are not about some guy who wandered the Galilee telling people to make love and not war.

 

It's about this Jesus who's about to come back a second time to give punishments and rewards, it's about this guy sent on earth by his father so that he could horribly die and thus forgive men's sins. It's about the Eucharistic sacrament.

 

The gospels undoubtedly preach christian doctrines and you will always find a "christian editing" of some sort to smooth the critical passages.

 

It's obvious that the religious authority manipulated the text in various ways and -in my opinion- that was done by adding words and phrases in many instances.

Of course the gospels doesn't preach the zealots view of the world, how could they?

 

You can't really be coherent with your own interpretation of this jesus because the only Christ that fits in is the Christian one. Even the gnostic Jesus isn't supported by the four canonical texts.

 

But there are still traces of the real events that inspired the myth and there are many. Even the famous INRI stuff, a clear reference to a zealot Messiah being crucified.

 

 

Quote

Romans 8:6-17

[...]

 

The gospels repeatedly state that worrying about earthly stuff (and desires) leads to death. Everyone needs to find the (Holy) Spirit within themselves and become a "son of God" in their own right.

 

First point, you're not quoting the gospels, but Paul's epistles.

Second point: that's Pauline theology and it's about joining the christian community, receive baptism, believe that those who reject Christ go to hell and more.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Cheshire Cat

[Cheshire Cat]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

 

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That is enough,” he replied.

 

It looks to me like he is trying to set himself up conclusively as the Messiah, dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's, he doesn't come over as that interested in swords really when just two will do. 

 

 

 

 

 

It looks to me like christian editing. Why having two swords would be enough to be numbered with the transgressors?

Why is the sword more important than the cloak?

 

It's critical to understand that the various prophecies were arranged at a later time and they're often shroud in the veil of mystification.

For example: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel”  is a prophetic passage, quoted in the gospels and allegedly from Isaiah 7:14.

 

The problem is that the original text doesn't talk about a virgin. The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is almah and it means young woman.

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

It looks to me like christian editing. Why having two swords would be enough to be numbered with the transgressors?

Why is the sword more important than the cloak?

 

It's critical to understand that the various prophecies were arranged at a later time and they're often shroud in the veil of mystification.

For example: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel”  is a prophetic passage, quoted in the gospels and allegedly from Isaiah 7:14.

 

The problem is that the original text doesn't talk about a virgin. The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is almah and it means young woman.

 

Staying with swords for one more post, when it comes to actually using them Jesus is recorded as not being interested. Again  he seems only interested in fulfilling prophecy (which to me raises its own questions):

 

 Matt 26:51 At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52“Put your sword back in its place, Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Staying with swords for one more post, when it comes to actually using them Jesus is recorded as not being interested. Again  he seems only interested in fulfilling prophecy (which to me raises its own questions):

 

[...]

 

 

 

 

Why not delve deeper into the figurative meanings of the sword?

The sword being clearly a metaphor for the sacred phallus and sexual energy, which is kundalini. When his disciples showed him two swords and he said "That's enough", he was undoubtedly talking about Ida and Pingala, the most important nadis and they're truly enough to raise kundalini fully, as many yogis use to say.

 

In the verse that you quoted, Peter was probably using his inner magical power, developed trough Jesus' meditations to defend himself and his fellows. In fact, how many chances do you have to cut someone's ear without severing the neck? With a physical sword you can easily hit his arms.

 

So, Jesus said "Put your sword back in its place", actually referring to his kundalini energy which shouldn't be used to harm.

 

 

 

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

 

 

Why not delve deeper into the figurative meanings of the sword?

The sword being clearly a metaphor for the sacred phallus and sexual energy, which is kundalini. When his disciples showed him two swords and he said "That's enough", he was undoubtedly talking about Ida and Pingala, the most important nadis and they're truly enough to raise kundalini fully, as many yogis use to say.

 

In the verse that you quoted, Peter was probably using his inner magical power, developed trough Jesus' meditations to defend himself and his fellows. In fact, how many chances do you have to cut someone's ear without severing the neck? With a physical sword you can easily hit his arms.

 

So, Jesus said "Put your sword back in its place", actually referring to his kundalini energy which shouldn't be used to harm.

 

 

 

 

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have kundalini, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are ida and pingala.”

“That is enough,” he replied...

 

...50“Friend,” Jesus replied, “do what you came for.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus, and arrested Him. At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his kundalini and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52“Put your kundalini back in its place, Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the kundalini will die by the kundalini. 53Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?” 55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Have you come out with kundalini and clubs to arrest Me as you would an outlaw? Every day I sat teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest Me. 56But this has all happened so that the writings of the prophets would be fulfilled.”  

 

I think sometimes a sword is just a sword.

[Cheshire Cat]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I think sometimes a sword is just a sword.

 

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me.“

 

This one is a little more of a challenge...

 

To me it means more of what 54 is about - sacrificing and letting go of attachments, but in this form of your loved ones.  Especially transcending the expectations and path - your story - that your family and parents have created for you. Your conditioning.

 

He also talks about "taking up HIS cross" - thinking and deciding for yourself... following your own way.

 

Also, looking ahead to 56... I see a pattern emerging in these few verses...

 

I think you make some very good points.  I would say that in this context, it is more about "leaving" and not being attached to the family, similar to how Buddha left his wife and child. The point is further highlighted below...

 

Matthew 8:19-22

19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

In Jesus saying "let the dead bury their dead", he is saying that if one gets caught up and attached to a role (father, mother, son, daughter...) then one is not realizing their true nature (or spirit within).  And if you don't realize it, it leads to death. So pick up the cross (deal with all of it) and move forward.

[Fa Xin]

(56) Jesus said, "Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world.”

Edited October 23, 2017 by Fa Xin

[MooNiNite]

On 10/16/2013 at 9:32 AM, Jeff said:

10) Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and see, I am

guarding it until it blazes."

 

 

In this verse, Jesus is talking about a radical shift he is bringing to the (Jewish) world. It is a new covenant (fire) and level of "realization" in God. A new level of "truth" beyond the previous words of Moses.

 

 

John 1:16-17 (KJV)

¹⁶ And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

¹⁷ For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

I think here Jesus is referring to himself.

 

"The world" is himself and he is setting fire to himself and "guarding" himself and his actions. 

 

[MooNiNite]

(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me.“

 

My interpretation: This one means that you have to disregard all help from all sources to reach true harmony and balance.

Help from others is a poison. And anything that poisons the self should be hated.

 

It is very extremist, but true that a person should not allow people to overly kind and generous because it hinders spiritual and personal growth. One must learn to rely on no one and be comfortable being alone. 

[MooNiNite]

On 9/30/2013 at 1:57 PM, Jeff said:

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

I think people are ignoring the literal esoteric meanings here. A person who eats meat literally becomes more beastly. They Have stronger sexual cravings and their mental state becomes more sluggish.

 

It is possible that when a person eats a lion the lion's essence or soul aspects become absorbed by the human. Like they merge in a way, and this could be a very big realization boost for an animal. Sort of like a disciple in the presence of a master. 

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, MooNiNite said:

(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me.“

 

My interpretation: This one means that you have to disregard all help from all sources to reach true harmony and balance.

Help from others is a poison. And anything that poisons the self should be hated.

 

It is very extremist, but true that a person should not allow people to overly kind and generous because it hinders spiritual and personal growth. One must learn to rely on no one and be comfortable being alone. 

 

I don’t quite see how you come to that point of view from the verse. Also, I think that if you look at the teachings of Jesus, you would see that he says the opposite...

 

“Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:42‬ ‭KJV

 

And also, we are all interconnected and ”one in Christ”...

 

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Romans 12:4-5 KJV

 

 

[Fa Xin]

10 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

(56) Jesus said, "Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world.”

 

This one to me falls into line with 54 and 55 - 

the corpse being worldly pleasures and attachments. Something that is ultimately empty but also impermanent.

To recognize the impermanent nature of the world, and let go of attachments... you have sort of "risen above it"

 

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This one to me falls into line with 54 and 55 - 

the corpse being worldly pleasures and attachments. Something that is ultimately empty but also impermanent.

To recognize the impermanent nature of the world, and let go of attachments... you have sort of "risen above it"

 

 

I would agree.  Also, I think this verse ties in exactly with the Romans verses that I posted earlier...

 

 

 

[MooNiNite]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I don’t quite see how you come to that point of view from the verse.

 

Well you would have to just read the quote: 

 

(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me.“

[MooNiNite]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

“Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:42‬ ‭KJV

 

He is telling you to help others. But he is not telling you to ask for help from others and to rely on others. 

He doesnt say, "Take from others whenever you need something."

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

He is telling you to help others. But he is not telling you to ask for help from others and to rely on others. 

He doesnt say, "Take from others whenever you need something."

 

Romans 12:3-5

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 

In the teachings of Jesus, all of us are "members of one another", and of "one body in Christ". And as the gospel specifically says, "think soberly" about thinking that you can do it by yourself.

[MooNiNite]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Romans 12:3-5

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 

In the teachings of Jesus, all of us are "members of one another", and of "one body in Christ". And as the gospel specifically says, "think soberly" about thinking that you can do it by yourself.

 

I think these teachings are basically explaining that we are connected in the way that hurting another is the same as hurting one's self. (Or helping another is the same as helping the self). However, you shouldnt go as far as to think personal growth is no longer relevant, because we are all "the same." I think that is going too far. Im still convinced that hating one's family is an approach that means distancing yourself from relying on people who are compelled to overly serve you.

 

Family, father, mother, have a tendency to be taken advantage of and not care. When it obviously damages the child's growth. We cant ignore that obvious fact. A person that cant stand on their own two feet, doesnt have a mind that thinks for itself (or is sober). 

 

We can agree to disagree on this one and move on. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by MooNiNite

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

 

I think these teachings are basically explaining that we are connected in the way that hurting another is the same as hurting one's self. However, you shouldnt go as far as to think personal growth is no longer relevant, because we are all "the same." I think that is going too far. Im still convinced that hating one's family is an approach that means distancing yourself from relying on people who are compelled to overly serve you

 

If you look at the immediately following verses, you see that it is not about not hurting others, but about gifts of grace, or that not every part of the body is the same and that you need to work together...

 

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

 

While I completely agree that one needs to continue with their own personal growth, one of the unique things about Jesus and his teachings, is the shared space (or potential for "parallel processing"...

 

1 John 1:1-7

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

It is sort of like a fellowship of light, where we all walk together with the teachings of Jesus. And when you "know it", your joy is full.  

[Fa Xin]

Great discussion!!

 

Going to move it along, as this one seems more interesting...

 

57 Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, 'No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned."

 

One highlight of this verse for me is "No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them."  Does everyone think this is about taking the good with the bad? Or is it deeper than that?

Edited October 23, 2017 by Fa Xin

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Great discussion!!

 

Going to move it along, as this one seems more interesting...

 

57 Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, 'No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned."

 

One highlight of this verse for me is "No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them."  Does everyone think this is about taking the good with the bad? Or is it deeper than that?

 

For me, Verse 57 is about the nature of "mind" and the difference between clear and obstructed view. The Father's kingdom is "clear mind" without attachments, issues and fears.  The weed that are sowed are the attachments and aversions that create issues in our "mind". When in such a "state", it is not really possible to tell what is "real" and what is a distorted view, hence the confusion of focusing on the world.

 

But, with a clear mind (day of harvest), it is easy to notice the issues, fears and obstructions, and they will be dropped (pulled up and burned).

 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

For me, Verse 57 is about the nature of "mind" and the difference between clear and obstructed view. The Father's kingdom is "clear mind" without attachments, issues and fears.  The weed that are sowed are the attachments and aversions that create issues in our "mind". When in such a "state", it is not really possible to tell what is "real" and what is a distorted view, hence the confusion of focusing on the world.

 

But, with a clear mind (day of harvest), it is easy to notice the issues, fears and obstructions, and they will be dropped (pulled up and burned).

 

Wow. Pretty profound and explains it perfectly... thank you...

 

Also, in my experience , it isn’t possible to pull out the weeds (fears, issues) without pulling out the wheat too (the enjoyable side of ego stuff).

 

it all stays (weeds and wheat) or it all goes (harvest time)