Calling Out All Taoists

[ShinRa]

Nice reply. I pretty much agree with you this time. You are wanting to go places to find your truths whereas I have been to most of those places and if I found no support for a particular thought I figured it wasn't worth investigating any further.

 

My main reason for my initial response was to speak to the concept of nature and how we all must live within its realm. Sure, we can change the course of a river, if it is a small one. The Mississippi River doen't much care what man tried to do to it. It just keeps rolling along.

 

Sure, continue your search, by all means. But I suggest that you don't accept stuff without proof. Pretend you are from Missouri, the "Show Me" state.

Thank you and I appreciate the wisdom of your words! I totally agree we all must live within nature especially knowing we're apart of it anyway. I definitely will pretend I'm from Missouri lol, proof is mandatory.

[Marblehead]

Another point of view is that it is possible to "communicate" with the Tiger and there will be no need for violence.

True. We are not a natural prey of the Tiger. (Well, except in parts of India where the people have created an undesirable condition for both man and Tiger.)

 

The tiger would likely leave us alone if it did not see us as a threat. Same with the Buffalo. Don't know about man. Strange creature, that one is.

[Marblehead]

If you think about it, we often, in our practices "defy" nature. To be more precise, its closer to Reversing Nature.

 

Our bodies do what they do. Well, we learn Cultivation Methods to CHANGE that. Nature is already doing its thing within us and we want to change HOW it does that.

No, no, no! Hehehe. What you are doing is testing your capabilities and capacities and finding out that you can do more than you thought you could. You are still within your nature. Only when you start flying will you get my undivided attention.

[Uroboros]

True. We are not a natural prey of the Tiger. (Well, except in parts of India where the people have created an undesirable condition for both man and Tiger.)

 

The tiger would likely leave us alone if it did not see us as a threat. Same with the Buffalo. Don't know about man. Strange creature, that one is.

 

Animals, wild ones that is, are generally far kinder and wiser then most humans! haha.

 

They feel far more then we do and man has yet to understand how to interact with nature and animals in a peaceful way.

 

Domesticated animals...they, often, are out of touch with their core nature and their instincts are different...

 

A lion kills its prey quickly. A domesticated cat tortures and plays with its prey. Why? Dunno.

 

Maybe it does not really know what to do afterwards.

 

hehe, maybe we are all like the cat, trying to be like the lion....

 

Peace

[Uroboros]

No, no, no! Hehehe. What you are doing is testing your capabilities and capacities and finding out that you can do more than you thought you could. You are still within your nature. Only when you start flying will you get my undivided attention.

 

Haha. Yes, yes, yes! Its all within the bounds of nature. No matter what exists or is thought of, its within nature.

 

When talking of reversing nature, we are in a way. Sure, its still within nature. BIG Nature.

 

Small nature, being our individual "way" of existing, we change that. often.

 

We dont really go with the flow. We want to feel healthier, so we do things to create that change.

 

What does health often mean? Reversing signs of decay that are associated with aging.

 

Or slowing that decay down.

 

Letting nature take its course, small nature, would just be letting them happen.

 

Not trying to change things.

 

Peace

[Marblehead]

Haha. Yes, yes, yes!

Hehehe. It's okay if we disagree on occasion. You have your own journey to travel. Mine's all done. I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

[ShinRa]

Ah, 3bob, so you want another discussion, do you> Hehehe.

 

There is more knowledge than your or my brain could ever come close to consuming. At some point we need to say, "Stop! That's enough."

 

Yep. That is from the TTC. Do you really believe the way it is translated? I suggest that would not be good.

 

Expose yourself to a tiger in the wild and you will likely die, especially if you try to pet some females little cubs.

 

Try to go for a ride on a wild buffalo. I promise you, you will not have a happy day.

 

Expose yourself to the enemy while in battle and I promise you that it will be the last thing you ever do.

 

There is room for death in every living thing. No exceptions. Period.

 

The way that part of Chapter 50 should be understood, IMO, is that the wise man never exposes himself to these dangers. He is totally aware of his surroundings so he does not make himself visible to these dangers. Logic dictates that we read the TTC with our logical mind first. Then, if you feel frisky go ahead and venture into the implied mysticism. But while you are doing that don't forget the logic of "reality".

 

Interpretation is everything. We are not spirit beings such that if a sword is thrust into our mid-section it will do no harm. Such and act would likely cause us to die.

 

Yes, I still watch my butterflies but I know that I cannot fly. Illusions and delusions are some tricky things. Sometimes they cause no harm, other times we venture into great danger.

 

But have you read my response and considered its validity?

 

Indeed, and it's extremely valid. There are alot of mystical writings with plenty of metaphors that actually have a solid, logical basis behind the mysticism. IMO, the mysticism provokes our inherent creative side but without logic to clarify/objectify it and provide a way to apply it in reality would be delusional(and sometimes dangerous).

[Uroboros]

Hehehe. It's okay if we disagree on occasion. You have your own journey to travel. Mine's all done. I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

 

hehehe. Disagreements are wonderful! Different perspectives to expand and grow! haha.

 

We are all where we are supposed to be......How could we be anywhere else?! haha

[Marblehead]

Indeed, ...

Yeah. Please remember too that I am the Materialist of the board. There are lots of Mystical and Spiritual folks on the board. I'm just trying to make sure there is a little bit of balance.

[ShinRa]

haha, yep. Intuition- the deepest, truest "pulse" that I can "hear" at the moment.

 

Balance...Hmm..Yes. Balance as a verb, though. An action. Its something that I dont want to "get". its something that I do. Create. Like dancing.

 

I enjoy your question! Its important, I feel. Sometimes its easy to fall into a lull and questioning what we are really doing can help.

Like dancing..haha well put, and I'm glad you enjoy my question! To let Taoism become another mundane thing in one's life is like stripping an animal of its instincts.

 

If you think about it, we often, in our practices "defy" nature. To be more precise, its closer to Reversing Nature.

 

Our bodies do what they do. Well, we learn Cultivation Methods to CHANGE that. Nature is already doing its thing within us and we want to change HOW it does that.

 

Sure, the goals are usually to bring more harmony and such. Still we are changing natures course. We do it all the time, as humans.

 

Another way is thru "Jing" or sexual energy retention/ sublimation. For men, the natural course is for all that energy to be ejaculated into the woman, or anywhere really, for the purpose of passing genetic code/ life force onto the next generation.

 

This happens to be done at the expense of the males life force.

 

Well, we alter that! We Reverse Nature and channel that energy inwards. Instead of expending it towards the next generation, expending our life force in the process, we reverse that process to use the energy to expand our cultivation and growth.

 

Some thoughts.

 

Peace

THIS ^^^ is what prompted me to create this thread..

[ShinRa]

Yeah. Please remember too that I am the Materialist of the board. There are lots of Mystical and Spiritual folks on the board. I'm just trying to make sure there is a little bit of balance.

All good! It's necessary to have someone bring you back to reality sometimes, I need it myself at times. Thanks for that.

Edited August 20, 2013 by ShinRa

[3bob]

"nature" has what could be called a great many scales or laws...

 

Thus the scale and law of "the One" is different from the scale and law of "the Two", "the Three" and so forth on to the scale and laws of the "ten thousand", further what can happen or is lawful and real say under the scale and law of "the three" is not the same as what can happen or is lawful and real under scale and law of the "ten thousand". Another analogy: what works or lawfully applies to a single dimensional framework does not apply to what works or lawfully applies in a 3 dimensional framework... I hope that helps logically explain how what may seem mystical is really just the working of various laws in their related dimensions. (dimensions which are not limited to just the physical realm!) Btw, the deeper or more foundational laws do not break the more convoluted iterations of laws in creation but they do have the lawful power to supersede them in certain cases since they are closer to the root. (if or when needed per deeper wisdom)

 

Also "nature" could be said to flow in two ways, out from the root and also in returning to it... and those two ways have two different flows. Thus the saying, "go with the flow" needs certain qualifications.

[steve]

To start off, I mean no offense to anyone,their practice(s),goals and beliefs. I'm simply interested in why so many here on TTB will practice a system but then mainly dwell on the theoretical and philosophical aspects of Taoism, while not truly "diving in" on the actual qi gong/nei gong aspects which has enormous potential for so many things. For example, I see alot of people on here speaking in riddles and cryptic language and showing how intelligent they are regarding Taoist practices but never discussing how we can achieve great "things" called myths by modern man, miracles by the religious man and spiritual power by ancient man... What I'm truly questioning is... what are you all doing it for? I'm sure the ancients didn't become Taoists to philosophy and have intellectual debates, they wanted to understand nature...master it...and then overcome it..to no longer be bound to "cycles" and natural/universal laws but instead be outside of these "cycles" and above these laws...to be immortal! To defy aging and death(biologically and consciousness-wise) is to defy nature itself.

 

So again, what are you all REALLY doing it for?

 

I don't really consider my self an -ist of any sort so ignore my response if you're only interested in folks who consider themselves Daoist.

 

I do practice Daoist meditation methods, qigong, and internal martial arts.

For me it started with the martial arts and qigong. Then my teacher offered to teach me meditation methods and it changed my life for the better. So now, the martial arts have become secondary to the spiritual practices.

I am doing it to improve the quality of life for myself, my family, and those around me.

I'm doing it because once exposed to even a small glimpse of truth, nothing else is quite as appealing.

The lies and ignorance that we are immersed in become more and more obvious and one prefers to be closer to truth.

 

"they wanted to understand nature...master it...and then overcome it..to no longer be bound to "cycles" and natural/universal laws but instead be outside of these "cycles" and above these laws...to be immortal! To defy aging and death(biologically and consciousness-wise) is to defy nature itself."

I disagree with this assertion. This is a common misconception. The Daoist is looking to come closer to and assimilate with nature and her cycles and laws. Anyone looking to master nature, overcome nature laws and so forth, is not Daoist, IMO. Proper practice and application can give the appearance to the uninitiated of super powers but that is a natural side effect of the methods and no one masters, overcomes, or is outside of our true nature.

[ShinRa]

"nature" has what could be called a great many scales or laws...

 

Thus the scale and law of "the One" is different from the scale and law of "the Two", "the Three" and so forth on to the scale and laws of the "ten thousand", further what can happen or is lawful and real say under the scale and law of "the three" is not the same as what can happen or is lawful and real under scale and law of the "ten thousand". Another analogy: what works or lawfully applies to a single dimensional framework does not apply to what works or lawfully applies in a 3 dimensional framework... I hope that helps logically explain how what may seem mystical is really just the working of various laws in their related dimensions. (dimensions which are not limited to just the physical realm!) Btw, the deeper or more foundational laws do not break the more convoluted iterations of laws in creation but they do have the lawful power to supersede them in certain cases since they are closer to the root. (if or when needed per deeper wisdom)

 

Also "nature" could be said to flow in two ways, out from the root and also in returning to it... and those two ways have two different flows. Thus the saying, "go with the flow" needs certain qualifications.

This is incredibly thought-provoking and helps give an understanding of why possibilities are...possible. Reminds me of mathematical formulas and programming software for example...if X=false then allowLevitation=true...awesome.

 

 

I don't really consider my self an -ist of any sort so ignore my response if you're only interested in folks who consider themselves Daoist.

 

I do practice Daoist meditation methods, qigong, and internal martial arts.

For me it started with the martial arts and qigong. Then my teacher offered to teach me meditation methods and it changed my life for the better. So now, the martial arts have become secondary to the spiritual practices.

I am doing it to improve the quality of life for myself, my family, and those around me.

I'm doing it because once exposed to even a small glimpse of truth, nothing else is quite as appealing.

The lies and ignorance that we are immersed in become more and more obvious and one prefers to be closer to truth.

 

"they wanted to understand nature...master it...and then overcome it..to no longer be bound to "cycles" and natural/universal laws but instead be outside of these "cycles" and above these laws...to be immortal! To defy aging and death(biologically and consciousness-wise) is to defy nature itself."

I disagree with this assertion. This is a common misconception. The Daoist is looking to come closer to and assimilate with nature and her cycles and laws. Anyone looking to master nature, overcome nature laws and so forth, is not Daoist, IMO. Proper practice and application can give the appearance to the uninitiated of super powers but that is a natural side effect of the methods and no one masters, overcomes, or is outside of our true nature.

The truth is very appealing indeed..

What I mean by "master nature" is fully assimilating with nature, not master it in the way one would master a martial arts technique or become the master of an animal. I agree that alot of these powers are natural side effects and not necessarily overcoming/defying nature (which again is very subjective based on one's perception of the phrase). My question then, is what is our true nature?

[Wu Ming Jen]

I practice all phases of Taoist Arts because it is awesome. The impact of practice in my life has allowed me to transcend beyond normal conditioning of mind and my body has benefited beyond mortal or normal degeneration.I don't care anymore about debate and intellectual concepts I just do IT. Positive practice, positive results in all levels of existence and non existence.

[ShinRa]

I practice all phases of Taoist Arts because it is awesome. The impact of practice in my life has allowed me to transcend beyond normal conditioning of mind and my body has benefited beyond mortal or normal degeneration.I don't care anymore about debate and intellectual concepts I just do IT. Positive practice, positive results in all levels of existence and non existence.

Truly excellent.

[steve]

My question then, is what is our true nature?

 

Exactly - it all boils down to that.

The only response I'll give to that - it is nothing that anyone can tell you, show you, explain, or capture in words.

It transcends the conceptual mind.

You must see it for yourself.

Lot's of methods to try and help, none are guaranteed and some have no need of method.

Good luck with your practice!

[Marblehead]

"nature" has what could be called a great many scales or laws...

Darn! You didn't give me anything to argue with you about. I even had to click the "Like" button.

[ShinRa]

Exactly - it all boils down to that.

The only response I'll give to that - it is nothing that anyone can tell you, show you, explain, or capture in words.

It transcends the conceptual mind.

You must see it for yourself.

Lot's of methods to try and help, none are guaranteed and some have no need of method.

Good luck with your practice!

Haha, will do! Thanks!

[rene]

A lion kills its prey quickly. A domesticated cat tortures and plays with its prey. Why? Dunno.

 

Lions kill quickly to secure their prey because they are hungry.

A domesticated cat, when hungry, does the same.

 

Seeing things how they are - instead of how we want to imagine them as being - is not easy to overcome.

 

warm regards

[Uroboros]

Lions kill quickly to secure their prey because they are hungry.

A domesticated cat, when hungry, does the same.

 

Seeing things how they are - instead of how we want to imagine them as being - is not easy to overcome.

 

warm regards

 

Well, snap, Rene! I have not observed a domesticated cat kill quickly. If you have, then they do!!

 

I must have sadistic cats....

 

Peace

[Aaron]

To start off, I mean no offense to anyone,their practice(s),goals and beliefs. I'm simply interested in why so many here on TTB will practice a system but then mainly dwell on the theoretical and philosophical aspects of Taoism, while not truly "diving in" on the actual qi gong/nei gong aspects which has enormous potential for so many things. For example, I see alot of people on here speaking in riddles and cryptic language and showing how intelligent they are regarding Taoist practices but never discussing how we can achieve great "things" called myths by modern man, miracles by the religious man and spiritual power by ancient man... What I'm truly questioning is... what are you all doing it for? I'm sure the ancients didn't become Taoists to philosophy and have intellectual debates, they wanted to understand nature...master it...and then overcome it..to no longer be bound to "cycles" and natural/universal laws but instead be outside of these "cycles" and above these laws...to be immortal! To defy aging and death(biologically and consciousness-wise) is to defy nature itself.

 

So again, what are you all REALLY doing it for?

 

I follow the teachings of Lao Tzu because I believe they are the key to living a harmonious life. If you are in harmony with the world around you, what's the use in burning paper by touch, or holding your breath for 30 minutes? A man in harmony has everything he needs, so for me the philosophical and practical applications are far more important than the esoteric energy practices.

 

Aaron

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

the philosophical and practical applications are far more important than the esoteric energy practices.

 

I guess this is why we dont see as much of you on the forum as we do me: You've got better things to do with your time

[rene]

Well, snap, Rene! I have not observed a domesticated cat kill quickly. If you have, then they do!!

 

I must have sadistic cats....

 

Peace

 

Or, they've never been truly hungry.

 

Don't feed them for three days,

then put a live mouse in front of them.

Watch what happens.

But you'll have to watch closely,

because it will happen fast.

 

warm regards

[BaguaKicksAss]

Ever walk into a room and hear the tail end of a conversation and wonder what on earth were they talking about?! Well that is what I feel like right now LOL. Last time I walked out of this "room" everyone was discussing philosophical Taoism vs getting up and moving your body/energies around Taoism...