Do you cease to exist ?

[teknix]

You can't cease to exist when you never existed in the first place.

[voidisyinyang]

[teknix]

[voidisyinyang]

STILL TRUST THE GOVERNMENT?? Start this video at 11:35, then listen to JFK's speech at 11:55. It gave me the chills.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N9tznyLzkA

[skydog]

Void is form and form is void.

 

This is my understanding.

Edited August 11, 2013 by skydog

[Marblehead]

Void is form and form is void.

 

BOOM

Hehehe. I see I still need to squeeze a little more of the Buddhism out of you.

[skydog]

Hehehe. I see I still need to squeeze a little more of the Buddhism out of you.

 

lol

 

I think you misunderstood

[skydog]

Basically

 

Emptiness contains many things (Void= form)

 

Emptiness= Harmony/Balance

 

Not (nothingness) because nothingness requires something ness

Edited August 11, 2013 by skydog

[Marblehead]

lol

 

I think you misunderstood

Well, It had been a long time since I messed with you. Hehehe.

 

Yeah, it is hard to talk about no-thing-ness. There first must be some-thing to compare it against.

 

Normally, the only non-things I talk about is potential. Not a thing yet so it has the potential to be any-thing.

 

I don't really have a problem with the Buddhist concept of "emptiness", I just think that way too many people mis-represent the concept. No different from many people mis-representing the Taoist concept of "wu wei". It doesn't mean to sit on your butt and do nothing.

 

Into the void. Strange place, I would think. Like sleeping without dreaming. At those times you really don't exist (but for yourself only). A person looking at you sleeping would know that you exist.

[3bob]

talking and comparing is only alluding to or pointing to at best along these lines, but one has to start somehow...

 

Imagine that which is inherent (thus more than just a potential) yet It is not a coming or going, rising or falling thing, for it sees all things for what they are, a this or that type of form ranging in scale from the micro to cosmic! (which includes mental forms as also being things)

 

That which is indestructibly inherent is also free in and through all dualistic forms.

Edited August 12, 2013 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Well, I don't feel bad about not being able to define what existed before anything existed because all of science is still unable to make that definition. They (many of them) use the word "Singularity" but none of them try to define what that is.

 

For me, the last line of Chapter 25 of the TTC is good enough for now. (That being: Tao follows TzuJan.)

 

Yes, even mind-thoughts are real for the person who is having those thoughts. But even they disappear (cease to exist) as soon as the thoughts have ceased.

[skydog]

Yeh not really fond of the phrases

 

Void

Emptiness

I dont exist, You dont exist.

 

I find these terms grossly innaccurate, sort of masochist, and a form of escapist delusion.

 

It is more unity, balance of opposites.

 

For example someone belives that the world is evil, now he can block his mind from thoughts but it would all be false and fake, if he was to believe the opposite view just as much aka the world is love, then he would not attach to either view.

 

Thoughts are real and have power.

 

Yeh, I prefer being one with nature.

 

So basically void is form, means the whole idea of trying to "become empty" is silly, because this is never going to happen, so people spend their whole lives trying to become this way, its more become in harmony.

 

Yeh, I do realise words are words, but they also strongly mislead people.

 

People think of void and think oh I believe I exist, I am not enlightened, this puzzles me.

 

Of course people exist, as a mind, body, soul, as everything.

 

Yeh, Im just making a point with this post, all conceptual.

 

I prefer to live life as a dance, in harmony, at one with nature.

Edited August 12, 2013 by skydog

[Marblehead]

... its more become in harmony.

I just wanted to highlight this.

[3bob]

I don't feel bad either because dualism of comparative mind and or the greatest science will never be able to pin down non-dualism that is beyond the scope of comparative mind.

[Jeff]

Yeh not really fond of the phrases

 

So basically void is form, means the whole idea of trying to "become empty" is silly, because this is never going to happen, so people spend their whole lives trying to become this way, its more become in harmony.

 

 

That is not what the Heart Sutra means when it says that...

 

Void = Form and Form = Void.

 

Also, when one experiences the "Void", they "cease", there is no noticing of anything.

 

Regards,

Jeff

[steve]

I don't really have a problem with the Buddhist concept of "emptiness", I just think that way too many people mis-represent the concept. No different from many people mis-representing the Taoist concept of "wu wei".

 

It is tough to pin shunyata down as a concept and even tougher to express in words.

And even tougher to express in words that multiple folks will agree on and interpret in a similar fashion.

I like to think about it in terms of multiple words that point to different characteristics - words like empty, spacious, open, thusness, and on and on. It is much better to investigate this with practice than with words.

 

And a quotation I like from the great grand-daddy of the 'concept' -

The victorious ones say that emptiness

Undermines all dogmatic views,

Those who take a dogmatic view of emptiness

Are said to be incurable.

-- Nagarjuna

 

 

 

Yeh not really fond of the phrases

 

Void

Emptiness

I dont exist, You dont exist.

 

I find these terms grossly innaccurate, sort of masochist, and a form of escapist delusion.

 

It is more unity, balance of opposites.

 

For example someone belives that the world is evil, now he can block his mind from thoughts but it would all be false and fake, if he was to believe the opposite view just as much aka the world is love, then he would not attach to either view.

 

Thoughts are real and have power.

 

Yeh, I prefer being one with nature.

 

So basically void is form, means the whole idea of trying to "become empty" is silly, because this is never going to happen, so people spend their whole lives trying to become this way, its more become in harmony.

 

Yeh, I do realise words are words, but they also strongly mislead people.

 

People think of void and think oh I believe I exist, I am not enlightened, this puzzles me.

 

Of course people exist, as a mind, body, soul, as everything.

 

Yeh, Im just making a point with this post, all conceptual.

 

I prefer to live life as a dance, in harmony, at one with nature.

 

Very nice post.

The Buddhists don't claim that we don't exist. What shunyata points to is that reality is neither permanent nor non-existent.

It's much more subtle and elusive than simply trying to capture the idea in a word like void or empty.

"It is more unity, balance of opposites." Another useful concept that points to truth but doesn't quite capture it completely any more than does shunyata.

"Thoughts are real and have power." No question about it - and yet grab a hold of one and make it last... they are impermanent, and everything they create is ultimately impermanent as well.

"I prefer to live life as a dance, in harmony, at one with nature." Love this - the Daoist may say they strive to be one with nature and the Buddhist may say they strive to find and be one with their original nature. Dao is beyond words, our original nature is beyond words. Dancing is nice.

[Marblehead]

Also, when one experiences the "Void", they "cease", there is no noticing of anything.

 

 

I'm with you here even though I use different words.

[3bob]

when one experiences Reality they are that Reality. (with a big R)

[Marblehead]

when one experiences Reality they are that Reality. (with a big R)

Well, I can't argue with that even if I wanted to.

[3bob]

[Aaron]

Look into the mirror and see the face you wore before you were born, then you'll have your answer.

 

Aaron

[skydog]

That is not what the Heart Sutra means when it says that...

 

Void = Form and Form = Void.

 

Also, when one experiences the "Void", they "cease", there is no noticing of anything.

 

Regards,

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

 

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of what a certain book I havent read means by that phrase (lol)

 

Im not really a quoter, someone whos opinion I respect shared this, and it made sense to me, and I thought about it, and yes it makes sense.

 

I think of it like the colour White (which isn't really white but a mixture of all the other colours) so one cant have white without other colours.

 

Or an analogy such as the 8th/whatever number chakra above the head more related to non duality, past the crown, and past lifes one. Opening it requires opening and harmony of the other chakras. The high depends on the low, For most people the third eye doesnt open prematurely for example it depends on a good foundation.

 

And yes in meditation or whatever one can feel like they dont exist or lose a sense of identity and this is nice and all, but mostly this is temporary and to make a belief out of this state such as "I dont exist" can be a little misleading.

 

Perhaps some people only want to dwell from the level of non duality, and I guess that is there path, but at the moment, I don't feel like that, Also I guess that level can shine light on all the lower ones, but I dont think Ive been too unfair with what Ive said, when I feel a lot of misinterpretation around this subject.

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff

 

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of what a certain book I havent read means by that phrase (lol)

 

Im not really a quoter, someone whos opinion I respect shared this, and it made sense to me, and I thought about it, and yes it makes sense.

 

I think of it like the colour White (which isn't really white but a mixture of all the other colours) so one cant have white without other colours.

 

Or an analogy such as the 8th/whatever number chakra above the head more related to non duality, past the crown, and past lifes one. Opening it requires opening and harmony of the other chakras. The high depends on the low, For most people the third eye doesnt open prematurely for example it depends on a good foundation.

 

And yes in meditation or whatever one can feel like they dont exist or lose a sense of identity and this is nice and all, but mostly this is temporary and to make a belief out of this state such as "I dont exist" can be a little misleading.

 

Perhaps some people only want to dwell from the level of non duality, and I guess that is there path, but at the moment, I don't feel like that, Also I guess that level can shine light on all the lower ones, but I dont think Ive been too unfair with what Ive said, when I feel a lot of misinterpretation around this subject.

 

Hi Skydog,

 

I would agree on your point and concept of integration. Also, I would agree that the 8th chakra is really the merging and collapsing of the standard 7 chakras. The 8th is also often called and directly connected to the "inner heart". If there is a perceived difference between meditation and normal daily life the 8th is not really open.

 

My point was more similar to what Steve was describing above. Also, the "void" is not the same thing as the perception of "nothingness". The perception of nothingness (or I am nothing) is usually a precursor to the realization of "oneness". The void is complete cessation (no perception or experience). Emptiness is more the "realization" that oneness and complete cessation are the same thing.

 

The opening of the 8th chakra (or collapse of the 7 chakras into a unified field) is a precursor to the realization of emptiness. Usually the full opening of the 7 chakras is realizing nothingness. The 8th (and other higher chakras) are the expansion into oneness (or realizing the inside is the same as the outside). Most stop at the 7th/nothingness and declare enlightenment, some expand to the 8th/oneness and experience integration with all, but it is very rare to take the deeper step of a Buddha (or Christ).

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Marblehead]

I think of it like the colour White (which isn't really white but a mixture of all the other colours) so one cant have white without other colours.

I heard recently that the universe really isn't composed of the colors we "see". It is our brain that adds the color. I'm waiting to hear more on this before I accept it.

[skydog]

Hi Skydog,

 

I would agree on your point and concept of integration. Also, I would agree that the 8th chakra is really the merging and collapsing of the standard 7 chakras. The 8th is also often called and directly connected to the "inner heart". If there is a perceived difference between meditation and normal daily life the 8th is not really open.

 

My point was more similar to what Steve was describing above. Also, the "void" is not the same thing as the perception of "nothingness". The perception of nothingness (or I am nothing) is usually a precursor to the realization of "oneness". The void is complete cessation (no perception or experience). Emptiness is more the "realization" that oneness and complete cessation are the same thing.

 

The opening of the 8th chakra (or collapse of the 7 chakras into a unified field) is a precursor to the realization of emptiness. Usually the full opening of the 7 chakras is realizing nothingness. The 8th (and other higher chakras) are the expansion into oneness (or realizing the inside is the same as the outside). Most stop at the 7th/nothingness and declare enlightenment, some expand to the 8th/oneness and experience integration with all, but it is very rare to take the deeper step of a Buddha (or Christ).

 

Regards,

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

 

Your post is causing me to think a bit.

 

It is still my understanding that an enlightened being (well actually I believe in the infinite levels idea) will still have thoughts occur and still have a sense of self that allows them to function in the world. And perhaps thoughts are a form of "emptiness". I think the higher chakras can open up a bit and then close a bit in constant motion and not neccessarily ceasing. When I do a ton of heart activity which has nothing to do with (meditation) I find I can sit for 5 minutes in immense bliss/nothingness. So in a way this stuff is all related, isnt this what is meant by the term Void= form.

 

Not sure, if people are getting confused over semantics.

 

I dont speak as an "enlightened" being, although I dont think anyone in this thread does (if such a thing even exists because Im pretty sure I know one person who is, and he has a sense of self that needs to function in the world etc etc.) and most of these peoples teachings are mistranslated.

 

I also find people tend to get excited when they hear things they dont understand or know much about, as if the other person must know exactly what it is they mean, I think it is not right to discuss things in such a manner.

 

Regards

Edited August 13, 2013 by skydog